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#code#more#software#don#writing#meetings#coding#same#still#always

Discussion (126 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

nayroclade•about 2 hours ago
It's hilarious to me to see the same kind of engineer, who throughout my career have constantly bitched and moaned about team meetings, agile ceremonies, issue trackers, backlogs, slack, emails, design reviews, and anything else that disrupted the hours of coding "flow state" they claimed as their most essential and sacred activity to be protected at all costs, suddenly, and with no hint of shame, start preaching about about the vital importance of collaborative activities and the apparent inconsequence of code and coding, the moment a machine was able to do the latter faster than them. I mean, they're not even wrong, but the nakedly hypocritical attitude of people who, until a year ago, were the most antisocial and least collaborative members of any team they were on is still extraordinary.
dmm•about 2 hours ago
Are you referring to the author specifically? Or a specific hypocritical person you know? If you're making a general statement about groups of online people you might be falling for the group attribution error[1], where the characteristics of an individual are assumed to be reflective of the whole group.

In any case, two things can be simultaneously true:

1. Writing code is not the bottleneck, as in we can develop features faster than they can be deployed. 2. It's annoying and disruptive to be interrupted when doing work that requires deep focus.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_attribution_error

knollimar•about 2 hours ago
Or just goomba fallacy
sermah•about 1 hour ago
SkyBelow•39 minutes ago
Sometimes there are two groups of people who have different opinions that don't interact, but given the extent they take up the same platform and don't seem to see each other, I'm not sure it is really a fallacy even then.

First, it becomes possible for people who have a double standard to hide behind this. One can try to track an individual's stance, but a lot of internet etiquette seems to be based on the idea of not looking up a person's history to see if they are being contradictory. (And while being hypocritical doesn't necessarily invalidate an argument, it can help to indicate when someone is arguing it bad faith and it is a waste of time as someone will simply use different axioms to reach otherwise contradictory conclusions when they favor each.)

Second, I think there is the ability to call out a group as being hypocritical, even when there are two sub groups. That one group supports A generally and another group supports B generally (and assuming that A + B is hypocritical), but they stop supporting it when it would bring them into conflict indicates a level of acceptance by the change in behavior. Each individual is too hard to measure this (maybe they are tired today, or distracted, or didn't even see it), but as a group, we can still measure the overall direction.

So if a website ends up being very vocally in support of two contradictory positions, I think there is still a valid argument to be made about contradicting opinions, and the goomba fallacy is itself a fallacy.

Edit: Removed example, might be too distracting to bring up an otherwise off topic issue as an example.

nottorp•6 minutes ago
> 2. It's annoying and disruptive to be interrupted when doing work that requires deep focus.

Steering a LLM also requires deep focus. Unless you want to end up on accidentally quadratic or have a CVE named after your project.

ftmootnomoat•about 2 hours ago
This is a false dichotomy. Software development has always been about keeping people in agreement, from the customer to the coder, and all the people in between (the fewer the better).

Meetings that increases sync between customer and coder are few and precious.

In large organisations ceremonial meetings proliferate for the wrong reasons. People like to insert themselves in the process between customer and coder to appear relevant.

I personally am fond of meetings with customers, end-users, UX designers, and actual stakeholders.

I loathe meetings with corporate busybodies who consume bandwidth for corporate clout.

No, I don’t need another middle manager to interface themselves between me and my users.

msteffen•about 1 hour ago
Yes! So much of professional software development is about assisting the nominal job of management—planning and budgeting—rather than users or even business fundamentals.

Why am I awake at 1:00am, ruining my brain and body, trying to get this feature finished before the end of the week instead of three days later? Ah yes, so that we meet our quarterly OKR, and the next quarter's plan that the EM and PM negotiated without me or our customers isn't disrupted and doesn't need adjustment. That would invite reprimand from the director, and the extra work would be terrible for them, I understand.

I'm reminded of this recent thread in which Heroku left the devs in charge and suddenly features that the author had requested for years got implemented: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47669749

xquce•44 minutes ago
Not a false dichotomy. I agree with OP and I can say for certain that if you are one of the few developers that is "fond of meetings with customers" you are not the the type of person OP is talking about, and you are more rare than you think.

I am a former Dev turned PO/PM and now CEO, I can tell you many a developers are not fond of those meetings you are fond of and people like myself don't insert our selves where we don't belong, we simply join the meeting and have the vital conversation with the customers/stakeholders whos payments make payroll possible, while the developers refused to.

My team have always commented and liked that I "shielded" them from the none technical meetings and distilled customer needs in our kanban, without them having to go to the meeting. While I agree this isn't the "best way" to do things, I simply have never seen a Dev Team work as the way HN tries to make the role sound "Dev/Eng and the customer is the only thing needed". Would love for this to be the case!

Also for those who think I'm down talking the abilities of my team, we made a company together when we left a huge company we worked for, as Co owners and even now we use same setup is used :)

stronglikedan•29 minutes ago
> you are more rare than you think.

Truth. I'm that person and didn't appreciate how rare I was until I became an EM and learned that most of my team would actively avoid conversations with the customer. Even though I have no way to quantify it, I'm sure it's benefitted my career.

adrian_b•37 minutes ago
Well said.

This matches perfectly my experience in working in many companies, where in most of them meetings were useless, but in a few places meetings were very useful, depending on how the companies were organized and how the attendance to meetings was selected.

I have seen projects that had to be abandoned without bringing any money, despite being executed perfectly according to the specifications. The reason was that the specifications were wrong because the customers have not thought about describing some requirements and the developers could not ask about those, because of lack of direct communication, while the middle men had no idea about both things, about what the customers might require and about what the developers might need to know.

forgotaccount3•about 2 hours ago
> nakedly hypocritical

How is it hypocritical?

If in the old world, the very important process that used up a lot of time and benefited greatly from no distractions was the actual writing of code then interruptions for various ceremonies with limited value other than generating progress reports for some higher ups would feel like a waste of time.

That same person in the 'new' world where writing code is very fast but understanding the business and technical requirements that need to be accomplished is the difficult part would then prioritize those ceremonies more and be ok with distractions while their AI agents are writing the code for them.

It's not hypocritical to change your opinion when the facts of the situation have changed.

abduhl•about 2 hours ago
Well it is hypocritical. Hypocrisy is an action or statement that is contrary to a stated value or principle. Just because your values or principles changed doesn’t make you a suddenly no longer a hypocrite, it just admits that your former opinions are no longer tenable.

I’ve noticed this push to try to clothe hypocrisy in made up virtues like intellectual curiosity and mental plasticity a lot lately. All I can think is that it’s some kind of ego satisfaction play people make when their place in the world is threatened.

roenxi•about 2 hours ago
Old value: Producing high value software.

How to do it? Focus on writing code.

New value: Producing high value software.

How to do it? Focus on writing specs for code / identifying needs.

I expect there are a lot of hypocrites in the mix, scared for their job. But this isn't a fundamentally hypocritical position - agents are changing the game for how software gets produced and the things that were important as recently as a year ago might reasonably be said to be irrelevant now. Ironically, we might yet see a great software engineer who has never written a program in their entire life. The odds are slim but it is possible now.

sigbottle•about 1 hour ago
I've noticed on hackernews in the past year, a certain type of comment. A deep suspicion to first call out a surface behavior, then psychoanalyze strangers with whatever the flavor of the month "deep observation" is.

You can't be a dick on this platform without fancy prose I guess.

esafak•about 1 hour ago
Abduhl, the nature of the job has changed; before it was coding, now it is managing the AI coding. What was and remains valuable is delivering value. This principle has not changed.
__MatrixMan__•1 minute ago
Is it hilarious, or is that just scarcity based economics doing its thing?
tikhonj•37 minutes ago
Ceremonies and tickets aren't especially effective for actual collaboration. They're primarily tools for making work legible and controllable to management.

There is a reason (well, many reasons) that, if I'm working on a creative project with somebody outside a company, we would never think of reaching for Scrum ceremonies or Jira.

It is more than perfectly consistent to complain about that while valuing collaboration.

peab•4 minutes ago
The amount of cognitive dissonance I'm seeing on HN right now is concerning.

I'm seeing both these beliefs right now:

• Belief A: "I am a skilled professional whose value lies in my unique ability to solve complex problems."

• Fact B: "An LLM can now solve many of these problems in seconds for pennies."

This thread is great at showing how people are rationalizing by moving the goal posts, so to say

tempaccount5050•about 1 hour ago
It's 100% denial/ego. I've been a contractor longer than I'd like and it's the exact same response I see when I join a new team. The team complains they have too much work and can't get anything done, so their manager pulls me in. Suddenly, they don't want to give anything up. I'm actually in the middle of this right now. The team "is swamped" yet somehow, they are able to argue that almost everything I can handle is best handled by them and they don't need help. Fine by me, I'll sit around and get paid. But it smells exactly the same. They don't want to admit that A - they are replaceable and their work isn't that unique and B - they are the bottleneck, not the process or workload.
aleph_minus_one•41 minutes ago
> A - they are replaceable and their work isn't that unique and B - they are the bottleneck, not the process or workload.

The problem rather is: often good programmers have quite good ideas how these problems could be solved, but for "organizational politics" reasons they are not allowed to apply these solutions.

Thus:

Concerning (B): Because they are not allowed to apply their improvement ideas, they are the bottleneck. But being the bottleneck is not the root problem, but rather a consequence of not being allowed to improve things.

Concerning (A): It is indeed often the case that if you simply let someone else do the work, the code quality decreases a lot and in subtle ways. Good programmers are very sensitive (and sometimes vocal) with respect to that - in opposite to managers.

tempaccount5050•37 minutes ago
And I totally respect that, I get it, I really do. But it's really obvious when people are being territorial and any contractor will tell you this happens every time. I suspect that a lot of the times, I'm hired to "teach them a lesson" in that "Hey, velocity sucks and I'm hearing a lot of whining, so if you don't like doing it, this guy will" and people snap into shape.
hirako2000•36 minutes ago
The bitching was about meetings and ceremonies that took away the little time left to spend time asking more features to be implemented, or revisited before it could get completed.

No developer was ever unhappy to communicate. But when pointless communication occupies too many long hours, interrupting useful the progress of understanding what could and should be done (by coding, yes, experimenting, getting a grasp of the beast), then yes they became unsympathetic.

goda90•30 minutes ago
I posit that getting into a coding flow state isn't just about producing code. It morphs and develops the problem space in the engineer's head. It helps them realize where the spec is lacking. It familiarizes them with the capabilities of the codebase so they can speak confidently about what future changes will entail.
bluGill•about 2 hours ago
Just because I hate those ' team meetings, agile ceremonies, issue trackers, backlogs, slack, emails, design reviews, and anything else that disrupted the hours of coding "flow state"' - doesn't mean I don't understand how important they were and are. I moaned them before, and will continue to - but they were always important. I have learned the hard way more than once what happens when you sit at a keyboard and write code (one time I lost my job because the code I was writing was so far out from what the company needed, the next I realized what was happening in time to leave first - only after I was gone did they realize that what I was doing really was important and they made me a good offer to come back)
figmert•21 minutes ago
Two things can be true at the same time. Yes, those meetings are horrible, and plenty of times they're useless and can be summarised as "why wasn't this an email/slack message", but also plenty of those same meetings can equally be extremely important.

In fairness, given the context those meetings give, it stands to reason that giving that same context to an AI, it can, in theory, still do the same thing as an engineer. But those meetings still need to be had.

raincole•about 2 hours ago
> the same kind of engineer

Who?

There are millions of software engineers around the world. It's quite likely that they have a few different opinions and point of views!

moralestapia•about 1 hour ago
But it is written there, and GP was quite specific:

>the same kind of engineer, who throughout my career have constantly bitched and moaned about team meetings, agile ceremonies, issue trackers, backlogs, slack, emails, design reviews, and anything else that disrupted the hours of coding "flow state" they claimed as their most essential and sacred activity

Seems pretty clear to me.

robertlagrant•about 1 hour ago
I doubt the GP has gone back through their career and checked on each person who thought there were too many meetings have now all made the switched they're being accused of, though.
wanderer2323•18 minutes ago
Meanwhile people who bitch and moan about “other engineers” all the time haven’t changed at all. How refreshing.
vishnugupta•29 minutes ago
I've got nothing to add to the discussion but want to take a moment to appreciate your ability to construct long sentences. It flows beautifully.
kenforthewin•about 2 hours ago
Looks like this comment is touching a nerve. This community is progressing from "AI can't write code", to "Well, AI can write code but it's not really about the code". I wonder where the goalposts will be moved next?
robertlagrant•about 1 hour ago
Both your error and the OP's error is in imagining that the same people are saying both things. The "community" fallacy, which has been around for about 10 years now, that pretends that people with something in common (e.g. "uses HN") are somehow a community that thinks identically is completely wrong.
kusokurae•about 1 hour ago
The community portion that unironically think AI is good enough now, are mostly managers and non/semi-technical people, and engineers who do not engage in critical or complex problems. HN has always been too much of the velocity-alignment-synergy class of professional talkers; it's just so much more obvious now that they feel emboldened in false confidence.
vehemenz•about 1 hour ago
There's some of that, but more often it's developers whose arguments are a year behind the frontier models or, just as common, they're dramatically overstating their abilities.

It's an inherent tension that every discipline has to wrestle with. The most experienced developers are in the best position to evaluate where LLMs are, but those who are the loudest about their own abilities generally aren't in this camp. Humility tends to come with experience, and arrogance tends to come with inexperience.

Antibabelic•42 minutes ago
No hackers on Hacker News? Oh my oh my
Eldt•about 1 hour ago
I've been paying attention to that line of division and came to the same conclusion. We're seeing the "tiers" diverge as AI becomes more capable. As the saying goes, you don't know what you don't know.
frollogaston•about 2 hours ago
This community hasn't agreed on either of those things, just like it never agreed on good coding practices.

My opinion since college (8y ago) was that the best engineers are the ones who treat everything as halfway a people problem, even in low level code.

jmull•about 1 hour ago
LLMs have been getting a lot better at coding.

If the "goalposts" represent what people generally think LLMs are capable of, they should be moving, right?

And complex, multi-part, long term efforts like building software and software companies always have numerous obstacles. When one is cleared, you wouldn't expect there to be no more, would you?

Your tone is complaining, but I just see people working in reality.

ap99•about 1 hour ago
Is it even a problem that so called goal posts are moved?

That's life.

Life changes and us along with it.

"Who Moved My Cheese?"

renegade-otter•about 1 hour ago
Just because you use LLMs doesn't mean you don't need the "flow". Reading code SUCKS, getting into the flow is harder than ever.

Unless you sign off on a Looks Good to Me PR and go loiter by the kombucha machine. Then you have other problems.

sillysaurusx•about 2 hours ago
You’re describing a multitude of different people with a variety of viewpoints. It’s also smart to change your mind when the environment changes; code being easy to write is a decisive shift.
onemoresoop•about 1 hour ago
Code may be easy to write once you know what the code needs to do.
GrinningFool•about 1 hour ago
Is it hypocrisy or learning? A more charitable take - it wasn't too many years ago that I also decried the need for all the collaboration. But as I advanced in my career, that worldview just didn't hold up. In this case, maybe the introduction of agentic coding has accelerated that learning because now 'regular' engineers are forced to take on coordination roles.

[With that said, the specific implementations of such collaboration are often still very painful and counterproductive...]

yearesadpeople•about 1 hour ago
That's an oppinion for sure, and a very shallow, general oppinion. Some people like solving problems, sometimes via code, while others tend to hide behind the 'Collaboration' banner, to help their own career progression. Both are legitimate tracks. To dismiss one, is to make the other appear 'non-Good'. But, perhaps data can be furnished as part of this post to support either as 'better'.
dwoldrich•about 2 hours ago
They sound like very important people no matter what the circumstances are, haha.

Having "house rules" on a team that new members must agree to follow tends to flush such people out and they usually exit on their own when their shenanigans get repeatedly called out as violative. Gotta introduce the rules in the interview process and get agreement after they join. Catching them out early is the key.

We had an intervention on one hard case and he rage quit the next day. I don't know why people do that, it's a small world and people talk.

notnullorvoid•about 2 hours ago
It's certainly the case that the collaborative ceremony can be mismanaged, and that is frustrating when you need time to implement. I don't expect that complaint to go away, those who are using AI heavily will replace it with not having enough time for prompting.

But I have also worked with some who refused to participate in collaboration, they felt their time and ideas superior to others, and there's no excuse for that.

sdevonoes•about 2 hours ago
There are 2 bands: you let people earn a living or you let investors/executives become richer every year to the detriment of workers. I don’t care about the medium, Im not with the big fishes
vehemenz•about 1 hour ago
It's an astute observation but overstated. There are just as many programmers who view their activity as too sacred to consider using an LLM, even for relatively easy, predictable, or disposable work.
kj4211cash•about 2 hours ago
I feel attacked. I still dislike most team meetings, agile ceremonies, etc. Slack and emails give me anxiety. A 30 min meeting will disrupt me for 90 minutes. But, yea, the code was never the bottleneck. Except maybe when I worked at a startup. All of the above are true.

Personally I find it hilarious that the same people at my company who can't be bothered to write down detailed requirements and are constantly fighting any effort to do research or technical documentation or pay down tech debt are now trying vibe coding and struggling to produce anything useful. Oh you don't understand why you aren't getting the results you expected? Maybe you should try thinking deeper about what you expect before your rush your engineers or, now, your agents.

reachableceo•19 minutes ago
Um… how do you get those requirements if slack / email give you anxiety ? And meetings are disruptive ?

I am genuinely curious. I understand where you are coming from, you want to maintain flow state.

How does one effectively load the funnel to support flow state ?

Jira tickets? Requirements documents in some kind of ALM tool?

Antibabelic•about 2 hours ago
Isn't solving problems, instead of blindly implementing a high-level description of the solution, your job as a developer?
bluGill•about 2 hours ago
There are problems you can solve, and problems that you cannot. Depending on the exact details GP may have been slacking for not solving problems, or correct in saying he can't do good work because he shouldn't be solving the problems alone.
drfloyd51•about 2 hours ago
They are still anti-social. But they see the “social” as a way to feed the AI better, to make better code.

The focus is still the code.

NothingAboutAny•about 1 hour ago
I've had seniors tell me my entire career that writing code was the easiest part of their jobs.
dep_b•17 minutes ago
True
jmull•about 2 hours ago
Generally, groups of people aren't homogenous.

The contradictions you see could mostly be variations across individuals rather than hypocrisy within individuals.

(Doubly so for vaguely defined groups, like "kind of engineer".)

rafaelmn•about 2 hours ago
Yes this exactly, it's getting ridiculous at this point.

It's precisely because I get swamped with all the non-coding work that agentic coding works so well. And in multiple ways.

- it lets you get back in the flow faster (unless you were used to writing out your inner thinking monologues and reasoning to get yourself back to speed when you come back from a meeting).

- it lets you move faster and take on more on your own, meaning less people needed in the team, less communication/syncing/non-coding overhead.

If you're objective about it, AI coding is going to be amazing for individual productivity. It's probably going to fuck us (developers) over with the reduced demand, lower bargaining power, etc. But just on technical merits it's a great productivity tool.

The models are still not better than me at coding and handholding is required, but the speedups are undeniable, and we're long past the threshold of usefulness. So far all the contrarian takes are either shallow/reflexive pushback because people don't like the consequences, or people working in niche stuff where LLMs are not that great yet. But that has been shrinking with almost every release - in my experience.

I know everyone here writes cutting edge algorithms that were never encountered in the training data, their code is hyper optimized realtime bare metal logic that's used in life or death scenarios and LLMs are useless to them - but most of the stuff I do day to day is solve problems that have been solved before, in a slightly different context. LLMs are pretty good at that.

AussieWog93•about 2 hours ago
Comments like these are why I still come to HN. Absolute kino.
watwut•19 minutes ago
Collaborative activities and process being important is NOT mutually exclusive with many meetings being useless, agile ceremonies time wasting uselessness and design review being used as a place to pontificate about crap.

NONE of the activities you mentioned are activities that lead to what article talks about - well designed spec.

AnimalMuppet•about 2 hours ago
But the flow state wasn't just about typing code. The flow state was about understanding the problem, about loading it into your head so that you could "walk around in it" mentally, so that you could figure out that what really needed to happen was that module X needed to add a getter to value foo, that module Y needed to get foo and make a change based on the value, and that the key to making this all work was to add a way for Y to access X that fit within the existing architecture. That took focus, far more than implementing the pieces did.
dahs617•about 1 hour ago
I would say in general the amount of persons who pivot like that is low.

Similarly, the amount of open source people who previously maintained a hardliner programming meritocracy stance and now pivoted to AI and market AI is exclusively limited to those whose companies are working on AI products. The good ones in that space are decidedly less than 1% of all good ones.

keybored•about 1 hour ago
Just look at what they write. There is a correlation between the Agentic Multitasker and the type of person who wanted results and didn’t care about the coding in itself. That’s what they themselves keep writing.

They are not the same people.

> It's hilarious ... their most essential and sacred activity ... suddenly, and with no hint of shame ... the nakedly hypocritical attitude ... still extraordinary

Calm down the hyperventilating for two seconds, look around, and you’ll immediately see examples of the same group of people who now biTch aNd mOaN about how agentic coding is killing what they love about programming.

It’s interesting to see people either gloat or get incensed at the nerds who like computers in the context of these developments.

ElatedOwl•about 2 hours ago
no, these meetings are still hot garbage.

half the time you’re going to discover the right decision / path while you’re coding.

focus time went from hammering code to figuring out how to solve the problem. PRs are now how we exchange ideas. meetings are still productivity theater.

psychoslave•about 2 hours ago
Welcome in humanity my friend.

Also, expect harsh and rude reactions when pointing to big issues that are crystal clear in the middle of the village. Not all truths are warmly welcomed, especially when looking elsewhere feels more comfortable in the immediate experience.

Take care and don’t worry too much: the journey’s short, so remember to also enjoy the good parts.

frollogaston•about 2 hours ago
I hate meetings when they're mismanaged, which is often. I like a good meeting. Probably what most swes would say.
jugg1es•about 2 hours ago
I think veteran engineers have always known that the real problems with velocity have always been more organizational than technical. The inability for the business to define a focused, productive roadmap has always been the problem in software engineering. Constantly jumping to the next shiny thing that yields almost no ROI but never allowing systemic tech debt to be addressed has crippled many company's I have worked at in the long-term.
SoftTalker•about 1 hour ago
> The inability for the business to define a focused, productive roadmap has always been the problem in software engineering.

Agreed, and I also agree that most developers come to this realization with time and experience. When you have a clear understanding of business rationale, scope, inputs, and desired outputs, the data models, system design and the code fall out almost naturally. Or at least are much more obvious.

rkozik1989•about 1 hour ago
Any competent engineer should understand that engineering is just the assembly line side of product development. Deciding when to release which feature, bug fixes, etc. and the development/management of the product in general has always been the real challenge, and a lot of the strategy involved in doing this relies on feedback loops that AI cannot speed up. Though at the same time I do feel like leaders on the business side often scapegoat engineer's speed as an excuse instead of taking responsibility for poor decisions on their end.
dyauspitr•about 1 hour ago
It’s part of the problem but AI also can crush this on pure lines of code and functionality alone. It can put out 100,000 lines of somewhat decent code in a day. That usually takes months or years of manual coding for a team.
paldepind2•about 1 hour ago
From the article:

> Jevons Paradox: when something gets cheaper, you tend to use more of it, not less.

That's a butchering of Jevons paradox. What's stated is not a paradox, but a very natural effect. Obviously usage of something goes up when it gets cheaper.

What Jevons paradox actually describes is the situation where usage of a resource becomes more efficient (which means less of it is needed for a given task), but still the total usage of that resource increases.

TheLudd•39 minutes ago
Should the paradox not be that we PAY more for it? Or, if some process is made more effective, i.e. takes shorter time, we spend more time in that process.
yxhuvud•3 minutes ago
Unit cost is down but aggregate cost is up.
IshKebab•37 minutes ago
No, we pay less for it. But there's much higher demand so overall use goes up.
TheLudd•29 minutes ago
Right. That is not a paradox as stated.

The paradox would be:

  * a TV used to be really expensive. So a home just had one

  * over time TVs become half the price.

  * now a home has 3 TVs, i.e paying 150% of what they initially payed.
nilirl•about 2 hours ago
Bottleneck for what? More features?

I don't think amount of software is what determines whether a company does well.

I don't think capturing quantity of context is that important either.

Now, quality of context. How well do the humans reason?

Then, attitude. How well do the humans respond to bad situations?

Then, resource management. How well does the company treat people and money?

Finally, luck. How much of the uncontrollables are in our favor?

Those are pretty good bottlenecks for a company. I doubt an agent is fixing any of those. At least any time soon.

neogodless•12 minutes ago
For business, software applications are tools that facilitate "the thing" that generates money. (We in the software world think that _thing_ is software and software _features_, but outside that world, there's usually a different _thing_.)

The bottleneck for making software applications better at being used by (non-software) businesses is making sure the software does all the software things that actually benefit the business. Save time. Make humans more productive. Reduce human error. Make the business more efficient. Increase profit margins.

All of those things are a bit difficult to predict and quantify. You start with ideas of what might help the business, you maybe design, prototype, trial. Ultimately you build or enhance software applications, and try to measure how well they're making the business better.

In all of this, making sure software is addressing the right problem in the right way, and ultimately making the business better - that's a hard problem! Regardless of how fast and easy it is to make software.

But yes, the speed can really help. You can prototype and trial and improve the feedback loop.

Antibabelic•about 2 hours ago
What kind of projects are people working on, where understanding what features the management wants is the only difficult part and the rest can just be "typed out" (or, today, offloaded to an LLM)? If that's what you do, then I'm not surprised so many people on HN think LLMs can replace them.
deepsquirrelnet•about 1 hour ago
Any discussion related to this topic always seems to assume everyone uses code the same way and for the same function, and then forces the rest of the world through that lens.

So here we walk around the circle one more time again, voicing our anxieties, talking past each other, waiting for the next opportunity for commentary to come in half an hour.

odie5533•about 2 hours ago
I've found the more senior you get, the code seems more fungible, and the process seems more important and difficult.
jayd16•about 1 hour ago
Isn't that just ascribing difficulty to the parts of the process you're closer to?
vehemenz•about 1 hour ago
Uno reverse. What kind of limited project experience would lead anyone to think that there isn't an enormous continuum between code difficulty and organizational problems in the space of software development?
hnthrow0287345•about 2 hours ago
This is like 80% of CRUD apps. Sometimes they have a few interesting problems but not like the upper 20%. Most of them are hot garbage in terms of code quality because of the offshoring and layoff cycles.
rudyp_dev•about 3 hours ago
I think the argument here misses critical nuance; there is a difference between code used to implement a product and when code _is_ the product.

It goes without saying that agents have little to no product sense in any discipline. If you're building a game or an app or a business, your creative input still matters heavily! And the same is true for code; if the software is your product, then absolutely the context missed by skipping the writing process will degrade your output.

That doesn't mean that writing code wasn't a bottleneck even for creating well structured software projects. Being able to try multiple approaches (which would have previously been prohibitively expensive) can in many instances provide something a room of bickering humans never would have reached.

jorisw•about 2 hours ago
> difference between code used to implement a product and when code _is_ the product

Care to elaborate? I don't understand the difference unless you mean code that _is_ the product, being OSS code or code for license.

rudyp_dev•about 2 hours ago
I think what I'm trying to get at is that there's a lot of code out there that really just needs to work. It doesn't need to scale to millions of users, it doesn't need to be abstract-able and useful to use cases we don't even know about yet, just needs to get an idea off the ground. That code is not the product. In such a case writing the code very much is a bottleneck.

If you're writing OSS code or software projects expected to be used by others that may have constraints like that, then by all means the code that gets output matters itself. But even still I'd argue that the cost of writing code manually to get there is still a bottleneck.

mayhemducks•33 minutes ago
In my mind this is what prototyping is for. Just get it working quickly and see if the concept has legs. But be prepared to completely re-write it because the "just make it work" mindset will make it more difficult to change and improve upon in the future.

But when you factor in today's favorite business model of "make it shitty", perhaps this matters very little.

jpollock•about 2 hours ago
Code you ship vs tooling you use to build the code.

So, the product vs everything that is needed on the way, but isn’t the core.

CI/CD tooling, template population…. Things you write a use once/use few script for.

I typically end up with a library of tools to deal with repetitive finicky tasks.

frollogaston•about 2 hours ago
systems vs application code
tlkan•about 1 hour ago
One of the bottlenecks has always been the code. That code has been stolen and is being laundered while companies rely on mediocre engineers who have never written anything of value to promote the burglary tools and call the process "writing software".

It is the same as putting an Einstein paper on a photocopier and call the process "writing a paper".

I agree with the point of the article though: code generation does not really work, the results are bloated and often wrong and people already had more features that they could absorb in 2020.

The solution to this mess is to have 18 year olds boycott studying computer science altogether, since the industry (and mediocre fellow "engineers") will treat them like human garbage.

mayhemducks•39 minutes ago
My status after reading your comment: https://imgflip.com/i/7yki7x

Agentic tools are "burglary tools" -> Younger folks should not study CS?

frollogaston•about 1 hour ago
Doesn't add up. I used to spend more than half my time coding, as did others. Besides the obvious cost, that coding took wall-time which meant talks had to wait. Sure a poor collaborator will jam things up a ton, but a team of at least ok collaborators used to be bottlenecked on code.
pu_pe•44 minutes ago
Sometimes code is definitely the bottleneck. For example some organizations have a very bureaucratic process guarding which projects get access to a development team and when. That's not needed if implementation is now faster/cheaper.

I'm also skeptical that development velocity is so separate from all those other things (context, stakeholder alignment,etc). It's much easier to get actionable feedback when you have a prototype.

j16sdiz•about 3 hours ago
(not related to the article)

The flashing red dot on the web page is very annoying. Is there some design reason for that?

edit: I meant the <svg> inside `trail-map-container`

augustk•about 2 hours ago
Turning off Javascript made the dot go away.
lysium•about 3 hours ago
FWIW I see the red dot only at the top of the page, flashing slowly. It does not annoy me, in fact I only discovered it because of your comment.
christophilus•about 2 hours ago
On desktop, it's fixed to the left of the story, pulsing along the entire time you're trying to read. If you are like me, it will annoy you. I had to switch to reader mode.
kgwxd•about 3 hours ago
From what I can tell, it marks the article you're on. There are other light grey dots with other article names in it.
FrustratedMonky•about 3 hours ago
I think he's going for a metaphor about groups versus individuals. There are other gray dots around the red dot. Software is a group effort, but made of individuals. Something, Something.
ZeWaka•about 2 hours ago
> Producing easily consumable context is precisely the thing humans don’t like to do.

I don't think this sentence speaks for me. This is the sort of thing I love to do.

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auggierose•15 minutes ago
I cringe every time I read the word "load-bearing" in an article.
lysium•about 3 hours ago
Can someone explain the title? I think the author illustrates that the code was the bottleneck and it has shifted to context. What am I missing?
bsenftner•about 2 hours ago
I think he is saying, I hope he is saying, that software has never been writing software, it has been communications with people over what the software should be, needs to be, and the entire point all along has been to achieve better collaboration with people, and implied: to achieve their collective goal. He spends a good amount of time on how slow writing software has been in the past, and that allowed the industry to over focus on the software writing. While it has been pointed out a number of times by milestone books our industry embraced that it is the communications aspect of why and what we write that is the most important. Finally now that is being forced upon us because writing code is now automated, and all that is left is the specification and the communications with humans over what and why.
anilakar•about 2 hours ago
The author argues that writing code cannot be a bottleneck because work always fills up the allotted time. Developer teams should instead focus on doing less and writing better specifications.

The error in the reasoning is that while you can increase your resourcing to tenfold and gain nothing in return, the inverse is not necessarily true.

jorisw•about 2 hours ago
I think the point they're trying to make is that context known by humans and the requirements they agree on, is 'the' bottleneck, rather than implementation
kylestlb•about 1 hour ago
Absolutely matching the gut feel I've had lately. We've always been pretty good at producing bad code very fast. All of the other stuff - dependency management, learning what's valuable, ownership & boundaries, context switching costs, etc... have always been the bottlenecks and it's just more obvious now.
jorisw•about 2 hours ago
> Agents that consume context need agents that produce it. Once that loop is running, the organization has a written substrate it would never have produced on its own.

I'm not sure a business is helped by documentation that distilled from (hopefully present) PR descriptions and comments in JIRA, by agents. Or wherever this context is supposed to be reverse-engineered from.

jaccola•about 2 hours ago
The company website linked in the article is broken https://www.dottxt.ai/ on (mobile and desktop) Safari. Looks like your cert doesn’t cover the www subdomain.
stego-tech•about 1 hour ago
The bottleneck has always been the human element. I too used to be one of those up-my-own-ass engineers who thought the most important part of my work was the machine, and it wasn’t until I began actually listening to others and their problems that I realized my function was far more than mere technology scaffolding.

That said, I’m also increasingly aware that puts me in a minority group. I got to see this first hand in a recent org where their codebase and product design hadn’t meaningfully evolved in nearly thirty years. NAT was a “game changer” to them - and one they refused to implement without tons of extraneous testing they would deliberately undermine, stall, and sabotage so they didn’t have to modernize their code accordingly. It was easier for the developers and stakeholders to preserve their own status quo rather than entertain alternatives, to the point of open hostility (name calling, insults, screaming, and a few threats) to anyone suggesting otherwise.

The human element has always been, and always will be the bottleneck. Stakeholders who don’t contribute updated or accurate datasets to automation systems, or who hold back development to preserve personal status and power, or who otherwise gum up the works on purpose to game their own careers.

That’s not to make the argument of “replace all humans with machines”, mind you. Just stating that an organization that incentivizes bad behavior will be slowed down versus ones that incentivize collaborative outcomes, and AI is just going to turbocharge that by removing the friction associated with code creation and shifting that elsewhere.

SoftTalker•about 1 hour ago
> name calling, insults, screaming

Never experienced this at a job in 30+ years, and that includes my first jobs in fast food. If you experience this at work, find another job. This isn't normal. It's extremely dysfunctional in fact.

stego-tech•22 minutes ago
I was already looking, but they ultimately made the decision for me in January with a RIF.

Thing is, this job market is hell. There are folks who have to choose between the abuse or making rent, which is why we need stronger incentives for organizations to discipline said abuse rather than let it permeate because existing penalties lack teeth.

blueTiger33•about 1 hour ago
the bottleneck was never the software, that is the ship we ride,

people, are part of a team focused on a goal, they work together because they believe in that the ship is worth riding on and will reach its destination,

the ship should carry food people want,

team decides what food will be consumed,

captain tries first the food,

if food is good and people want it, people buy more

zabzonk•about 2 hours ago
> Real programmers don’t document their programs.

Probably true, but I, for one, have always liked documenting how the code I've written should be used, whether programmers calling APIs I've created, or end-users actually making use of a program's executable. I find writing the docs just as interesting and creative as writing code.

BrokenBuild•about 2 hours ago
I can see the division here already, and the cogs are afraid. As a dev of 25+ years, currently working for a small company who came from a global company, I see both sides. I'm very excited about AI and love to see my projects come to life so much faster. I still love the craft of code, but its always been about the product for me.
luodaint•about 2 hours ago
The paper hits the nail right on the head, but it misses the mark on the next constraint: how to decide what to build.

In the old days when writing code took up a lot of resources, the constraint was self-correcting since being off in your implementation was obvious enough that the error could be easily seen after three months of work on the wrong feature. Today, you could spend five wrong efforts in the same amount of time that it used to take you to implement one wrong effort.

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spiderfarmer•about 2 hours ago
For me it was. Solo entrepreneurs are the ones who profit the most from AI assisted development.
frollogaston•about 1 hour ago
Or startups where coding was always a bottleneck because it was very expensive to hire swes, unlike big corps which would often throw swes at a problem.
wesm•about 3 hours ago
lynx97•about 3 hours ago
If thats true, I am sure some C-suite manager knows this already. Assuming management knows what they do, after all, they're getting payed for this. The time where engineer are trying to educate people above them should be over. Management gets payed for the big decisions. If they tank the company, so be it. I no longer care.
HarHarVeryFunny•26 minutes ago
> What may save us it that agents are unreasonably good at reading exhaustively. An agent will read every PR comment, every closed issue, every commit message, every stale design doc ...

> Not just “this module exists,” but “this module is weird because the migration had to preserve old behavior,” or “this benchmark matters because a previous optimization silently changed the distribution.”

The thesis here is that an LLM will document code better than a human (although based on human artifacts), since churning through huge quantities of text is what they are good at.

A few thoughts:

1) Yes, an LLM may be able to pull comments out of commits and PR comments and put them back in the code where they belong, but I question how often a developer too lazy to put a vital comment in the code would put it in a commit message instead!

2) "The truth is in the code" has always been true, and will always remain true. If the comments differ from the code, the code defines the truth. Pulling comments from stale external documentation and putting them in the code does more harm than good.

3) Comments that can be auto-generated from the code don't add much value (lda #1; add one to the accumulator).

4) Comments about the purpose or motivation of the code, distinct from 3), such as the "we had to preserve backwards compatibility" example, or "this code does this non-obvious tricky thing because ...", are where the value is, but the LLM is highly unlikely to be able to discern any unwritten motivation by itself. If the human developer left a comment somewhere then great (assuming it is still relevant)

Most of the discussion we see about LLM coding is how fast it can churn out thousands of LOC on a greenfield project, or how good they can be at finding bugs, but neither of these are very relevant to the main job of developers which is maintaining and extending existing codebases. It would be lovely if most projects were greenfield, but they are not.

In any large project that has been maintained over a few years or more, there will inevitably be an ever growing accumulation of bug fixes and patches for specific issues that have been discovered in production, likely poorly documented and out of sync with any original documentation that may have existed (which anyway tends to be more idealistic and architectural in nature, not capturing these types of post-deployment detail and special cases).

The natural tendency of an LLM is to want to rewrite code to match the statistics of what it was trained on, and they need to be reigned in via prompting to resist this and not touch more code than is minimally needed for what is being asked. Of course asking an LLM to do something is a bit like asking a dog to do something - sometimes it will, and sometimes it won't. I expect over the next few years we'll be experiencing, and reading about, more and more cases where LLMs have introduced bugs and regressions into mature code bases because of this - rewriting code that should have been left alone. The general rule is that if you are tempted to rewrite something you better first understand why it was there. coded the way it is, in the first place.

I can't help but compare the current state of "AI" (LLMs) to the early days of things like computer speech recognition or language translation when they were considered amazing, and everyone was gushing about them, but at the end of the day the accuracy still wasn't good enough to make them very useful - that would take another 10-20 years.

Another historical lesson/perspective would be expert systems which at the time were considered as AI and the future of machine intelligence (the Japanese "5th generation systems" were going to take over the world, CYC promised to offer human level intelligence), but in retrospect were far less important. It won't be until we move on from LLMs to something more brain-like, deserving to be called AGI, that LLMs will be put in their historical perspective.

At the moment DeepMind seems to be the only one of the big labs admitting/recognizing that scaling LLMs isn't going to achieve AGI and that "a few more transformer-level breakthroughs" are needed. Hassabis has however talked about LLMs (GPTs) still being a part of what they are envisaging, which one could either regard as a pragmatic stepping stone to real AGI, or perhaps that they are not being ambitious enough - building something that still needs to be spoon-fed language rather than being capable of learning it from scratch.

layer8•6 minutes ago
It also bakes in the LLM quality at the time the documentation was generated, into the documentation. It potentially worsens the performance of future LLMs if they ingest the documentation produced by older LLMs. It’s not clear why documentation wouldn’t instead be generated on demand, using the newest SOTA LLM.
freejazz•about 1 hour ago
It seems like so many developers know this, yet here we are. SV pushing this AI slop economy. More code! Faster! Less testing! Less understanding! It's what we NEED!