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Analyzed from 7103 words in the discussion.
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#hybrid#car#toyota#engine#battery#more#hybrids#ice#https#need
Discussion Sentiment
Analyzed from 7103 words in the discussion.
Trending Topics
Discussion (154 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews
For better or worse (I say better), the Prius really committed to hybrid as its own form. Plenty of hybrids really are an electric motor and a ICE tacked together, and with that system, you're going to hit twice (at least) the problems of either one.
The thing I appreciate about the Toyota power-split device, is that it really manages to remove a lot of the ICE moving parts. You have no auxiliary belts, no alternator, starter motor, steering pump, etc, and for me and millions of other drivers, that's made getting to 200k miles a given.
I'm not sure which hybrid you have (and of course, ymmv) but I really think that nobody has done it like Toyota, at least until the 2020s
It drives like a CVT, but it is not a CVT in the sense people know as far as maintenance and reliability issues. It is just a "differential" and electric motor balancing out the ICE engine output to get a desired output drive effect.
When driving long distance, I get to use the ICE while charging stations get jammed e.g. on peak traffic weekends. Consumption is much less than pure ICE.
Breaking pads are spared by the magnetic brake as well.
In Germany the amount you have to pay not to worry about every little scratch from a few mm, means I rather have my own scratches.
Then on the Mediterranean islands usually rental is the only option, unless one likes to pay taxis all the time, and most rentals take advantage of non locals as much as they can get away with. Yes some do have buses, if you want to be stuck in the main cities.
For my anecdote, my (occasional) commute distance is enough that I need to change my driving habits to have enough range/safety margin to make it back home during this cold period. In these conditions, my EV gets roughly 175 miles of range while driving 60-65 MPH with some (resistive) cabin heating. This makes my 150-mile roundtrip not exactly an afterthought like it is during the summer when I have 240-mile+ range ignoring the speed limit. If I couldn't fully recharge at home every night, preheat the car (even garaged it's still bitter cold)
Statistically maybe these edge cases are all irrelevant... But it is a hard limit on what you can and can't do with an EV that ICE vehicle users do not have to ever think about. Maybe once we start getting commonly-available and affordable EVs that come standard with ICE-like range - 300 miles all-season at the minimum - this will change.
Norwegians have apparently figured this out. Despite being pretty damn cold, they’re buying EV’s almost exclusively now (97%).
Finland, that's another thing.
the brake fluid is in the EV as well.
If you include the other efficiency tweaks like aerodynamics, wheel choices, etc., then an ICE car can also do very well in those highway conditions. But, the optimized or "right-sized" ICE for highway cruising may feel underpowered in some conditions. The hybrid also helps here, much like a turbocharger, by boosting power output temporarily to mitigate this.
My kids are soon to reach driving age and that means they can drive themselves - but only if I have another car.
I wish I lived where transit existed, but that is a different rant.
Me and the wife just got a baby and we were like "oh my god I am so glad I live walking distance to everything we need, including daycare and pediatrician". To be fair that is not the average where we live either, but kids are already taking themselves to places around 6 years old and most after-school activities are around the school.
In fact we were complaining that now that we have so little time available it is just so boring to _only_ be 3-5 blocks around our home and never go anywhere else. My wife sometimes just take the bus to go anywhere else to walk the baby rather than just doing it around our area.
I also need 5k towing a few times a year.
I do have a 2nd economy car, and I like driving smaller cars anyway, but having one big car is nice.
I have three kids under 10. None of them can legally ride in the front of my sedan. So they had to be in the back. Three of them in one bench seat. Physically possible, and we did it for a while, but it's just non-stop screaming and fights, and with very little space for all their after-school stuff. I threw out my back trying to make their sports and music stuff fit with my baby's stroller and diaper bag etc.
And this is the kicker if you aren't American: everything you do in life has to be done with a car, which means even at two kids, you might be transporting loads of gear every day.
I always thought, like my experience growing up, my kids should learn a musical instrument and play a sport. So if a kid picks cello and the sport is tennis, your entire trunk is filled now. And that's not even with a stroller for your third kid that is not self-ambulatory yet. Forget about a tire inflator, jumper cables, or any other standard stuff you should be carrying in your car at all times.
So with three kids (extremely common in the US), a sedan is practically unworkable. (Again, I'm saying this as someone who would only drive sedans my whole life if I could. I hate big cars and think they're a needless risk and expense for most people and wish we could heavily restrict their ownership.)
Now what if one parent is in charge of the morning stuff then works late, but the other parent is in charge of afternoon stuff because they get off work early.
Now you need an SUV for each parent just to manage three kids with a completely normal set of childhood activities.
I drive a ID.Buzz now, the LWB so it seats seven. Life is immeasurably easier. Perfect timing, too, with the gas price situation, and I keep the car at 80% charge every day, a few hours of charging off one 120V plug while I sleep, everything's gucci.
*edit* One thing I forgot to mention is that carpools to kid events are common here. So extra space to be able to drive one of your kid's friend to the after-game hangout is a of high value. Increases community, etc.
I am not American, and I have had two kids (now adults) and had a hatchback for many of those years. No problem fitting everything in. Split folding seats help a lot.
The biggest car I have had is probably a Citreon Xsara Picasso (small by American standards, I think), and that only for about three years. It was nice to have the space but not essential.
I can imagine needing two cars, and some people I know do, but more than two in all (say one big, one small, and not small by American standards) is rare.
I strongly dislike SUVs but due to transporting the kids around and their friends, my wife and I have switched vehicles during the week: she drives my sedan, I drive her SUV.
Being able to transport my oldest's friends around has resulted in improved relationships for both the kids, and the parents.
"Last minute sleepover after the game? No problem, I'll take your son and his gear in my car. We'll also pick up a pizza on the way back too. Drop off his toothbrush and pajamas at your convenience, after your other children are fed and bathed."
That's a briefer version of the exchange I had with a family last week, and their response was an audible sigh of relief, many thank yous, and an invite to dinner this weekend.
I remember talking to a coworker would couldn't accept taking 10 hours to drive somewhere instead of the 8.5 hours you can make it in an ICE. But then again we are definitely people who puts on road trips.
Obviously part of that is that the EV wasn't fully charged when we started, but that's the thing -- being low on gas for an ICE car barely affects travel at all.
Time codes 3:06, 37:07, 43:57, 43:36 (note on the eCVT naming), and 44:17.
Having worked in the field I've been of that opinion for 15 years or more. Two motors and a planetary gear are simpler than a regular transmission. More efficient also, and more reliable. The inverter and small battery may add some cost, but the MPG improvement is more than worth it.
Hybrids are an awesome improvement over plain old ICE, but they tend to get an unnecessary price premium due to their advantages.
[0] https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/27512455.html
Trains don't do the above in large parts because the gears needed either wouldn't fit in the allowed space. (we may not be able to make them large enough either - that problem is solvable but may not be worth it)
The place where they fall behind is at steady state on the highway -- but all of the series hybrid systems on the road have a solution for this problem too! They typically have clutch that engages a one-speed direct drive from the engine to the wheels. This skips the double-conversion losses at highway cruising. Then if you give it some gas to accelerate, the clutch disengages and you go back to full double-conversion again.
Efficiency seems to match or exceed conventional hybrids in city driving, and only slightly less efficient for highway driving. And people like the instant torque and the smooth “EV like” driving feel.
"In that concept, the rotary engine functions as a generator to produce electricity for the battery and electric motor, rather than mechanically driving the wheels."
Excited to see if this becomes a reality
more: https://uscarcover.com/blog/2026-mazda-rx9-review-rotary-is-...
The engine doesn’t run at a constant speed though, it responds to the amount of electrical power needed.
However, in the USA, in order to get EV status, it was nerfed where it was only allowed to use its engine to charge the battery once you went below a 30% state of charge, and next to that, the fuel capacity was electronically limited.
A neighbor of mine had one, and the engine couldn't keep up with charging the battery to move the car on the freeway + running the AC, because it wasn't powerful enough.
In the EU version, this wasn't a problem, because you could set up the motor to run to maintain a charge (instead of only allowing it to run below 30%).
Edit: 30% state of charge, not 10%.
I agree in principal that there's efficiency to be gained by minimizing conversion losses, but Honda may be clawing that back with larger and more efficient motor-generators that only package well because no planetary gear set is required to connect everything.
* Honda hybrids do have either one or two clutches to mechanically connect the engine to the wheels at fixed ratios for highway cruising, but their city EPA numbers are still very competitive.
The latter was sold in the UK/EU and was on the market for two years only.
The Chevy Volt was one and the current Honda CRV is another. Both of them work mainly by the gas engine driving one of the electric motors as a generator while the other motor drives the vehicle. They have a simple eCVT transmission. However, both vehicles have a mode where they directly engage the engine to the transmission at highway speed cruising because that is more efficient.
Nissan has a series hybrid system that they have used in the Note that is only the series hybrid without the direct connect mode. That saves some money.
https://expeditionportal.com/the-extended-range-ev-influx-is...
It took a while and several explanations for it to completely click for me. The e-cvt mechanism does seem to be quite clever and simpler (at least mechanically).
This does not appear to be a packaging issue, as the late 2000s LS 600h had a V8 with rear-wheel drive (and then AWD) with an “eCVT” in a “conventional” longitudinal package.
I think the most important question is whether the system requires a regular automatic/manual transmission or forgoes one entirely. The Toyota planetary gear system forgoes one, as does the modern Honda and Nissan approaches. Not having a transmission in the traditional sense saves so much complexity that the overall system is net simpler imo even with the additional complexity from having a motor and engine.
Then there are systems that have a full automatic drivetrain and some extra clutches to couple to a motor-generator. And there's even systems with an electronically controlled manual transmission instead. Those systems are going to be incredibly complex and fragile.
I always found most explanations of Toyota's Power Split Device too abstract, until I found this page where you can play with the sliders to see how the power is actually split between the ICE and the MG1/MG2 electric generators: https://eahart.com/prius/psd/
What this means it that you can set up an app like Torque[0] and add widgets that show you how fast each of the motors are spinning, live, and watch what happens when e.g. the engine starts: MG1 and MG2 both torque the engine forward, MG2 just enough to stop the car from attempting to roll backward in response to MG1's torque through the planetary gearset, and then MG1 spins up with the engine and then stops torquing it once the engine reaches idle.
Battery charging while idling is similar: MG1 turns itself into a generator, fighting the engine and generating electricity in the process. The throttle opens considerably, as if you'd pressed the accelerator halfway to the floor, but MG1 and the engine work together to keep the engine's RPM around ~1,200 so you'd never know it - it's as if you're driving up a really steep hill that stops you from accelerating even though you have the gas pressed halfway down. And then MG2 torques backward to stop the car from rolling forward any more than the Prius's normal "simulate a normal gas car's tendency to roll forward when the user lets their foot off the brake" would have it do.
It was fascinating to watch, and I kind of regret not building an app similar to the parent comment's link that showed what my car was doing in real time with the gears drawn out like that.
[0]: https://torque-bhp.com/
However, it's a 2L engine and the whole thing puts down 200hp, netting acceleration that beats a Civic SI and ~50 miles per gallon.
They first trialed it in Japan and Europe as the Civic EHEV a few years ago, and as of 2025 it has replaced the Sport and Sport Touring trims' former turbocharged 1.5L power train.
The tool is interesting though the Ford system can run independently on MG2/MG1 alone up to about 130kph (~80mph) depending on requested torque and load.
Only thing Ford screwed up is the battery (or Samsung since this time it's the cells).
[1] https://cna.asia/3PS4lrN
The new Honda hybrids are more like a generator + ev, which is also pretty interesting.
This seems like a self-imposed problem, especially in a country with no advanced battery recycling capacity.
I think - that's still a good thing though - as long as the used ex-jap hybrid vehicle can still save fuel.
Chinese EVs n hybrids will probably make that less common as they're cheap enough.
Generally, recyclers will pay for scrap that has minerals which can be recovered from the scrap.
Toyota Siennas use liquid Ni-MH batteries. It is likely these batteries as scrap aren't being exported, or, if they are, they are exported to foreign recyclers (in this case, many of those recyclers are actually less polluting that U.S. recyclers simply because they built their plants this century and new technology pollutes less). Also, Ni-MH can be replaced one cell at a time to produce "rebuilt" battery packs sold to economy customers, and "spent" cells, which simply fail performance tests, can often be used in other applications that are less demanding than hybrid vehicles. There is a cottage industry here in the U.S. doing these things. Ni-MH that is exported is usually completely dead cells going to a recycler (smelter), or at least that was my experience when I worked in that supply chain.
Li-ion using Cobalt is highly sought after by recyclers due to the expense of virgin Cobalt, so experiences a similar supply chain to Ni-MH. LMO chemistry batteries were the ones nobody wanted to touch, as they have no value, and they are all of the cheap replacement batteries people buy on Amazon for $15, and likely will be the chemistry people will use in their EU mandated replacement battery phones for some nightmare future mass pollution disasters.
https://eahart.com/prius/psd/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxmxIsoV_Xo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppyK3ZlUbtM
At this point, I assume the only thing stopping manufacturers is their pre-existing investment in other technology.
[0] https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/27512455.html
That is a myth which refuses to die. Ford developed their own system, and cross-licensed with Toyota over 20 years ago due to commonality of design.
minor details
And if gas goes over $6 I’m buying one for myself, too. I sleep in my car twice a week for work, and being able to run the AC on hot Florida nights will be the cherry on top.
The 2007 is like new except it’s the original battery, so son and I will swap the modules inside the battery pack in a few weeks for some refurbished modules with a warranty. Aside from the battery, the ABS pump is fragile but it is a DIY replacement if you have the time and patience.
Other than that, they just go and go and go, saving money mile after mile.
It's a common problem with them. But otherwise, it's a very reliable car.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake-specific_fuel_consumptio...
This is possible (and done) in any automatic, but in hybrids it was taken to the extreme, with electric motors covering for situations when either the RPM or torque are not where desired.
In fact, my experience is that during highway driving it's actually slightly off the optimal point, charging the battery in the process. I speculate that it's so that the surplus power can be released immediately by just making the electric motor stop acting as a generator and go into, well, motor mode.
At least that was my experience with the toaster, microwave, and dishwasher detergent episodes.
While Hybrid System II is very clever and non-intuitive coming from an ICE or EV frame of reference there are reasons even Toyota hasn’t placed all their chips on this bet. In fact as Japan’s largest manufacturer they want to have a bet on every point of Pareto frontier which is why Toyota makes cars with their own competing iForce hybrid design (I’m a big fan of the generator + torque assist), hydrogen cars, electrics, plug in hybrids, diesels, propane and yes gas.
Specifically Hybrid System II is best if you can 1) only have one car 2) don’t have a place to charge it 3) do lots of starts and stops driving around town.
https://web.archive.org/web/20210727090309/https://medium.co...
https://web.archive.org/web/20210825054702/https://medium.co...
> Maximizing the benefit of every battery cell produced requires that we distribute them smartly.
> This means putting them into a greater number of “right sized” electrified vehicles, including HEVs and PHEVs, instead of placing them all into a fewer number of long-range BEVs, like my model X. This is particularly important because presently it is difficult to recycle the kinds of batteries used in BEVs. If we are to achieve carbon neutrality, we must pay attention to all parts of the “3R” process — Reduce, Reuse, and Recycle.
> For example, we hardly ever put gas into our RAV4 Prime PHEV, which has a battery â…™ as large as our Model X BEV. For the same investment in batteries as our single Model X, five other RAV4 Prime customers could reduce their carbon footprint too.
It does get crazy mileage and drives well so I can't complain. They are more expensive than standard cars though and you can't leave it in neutral which is a problem in some car washes.
I just googled this. I had no idea this was a thing some people worry about. I guess it's a problem if the hybrid battery runs out while the car is in neutral, but there's a meter right there to tell you how much charge it's got if you're really worried about it.
However, the car may have a very small, old, or weak battery; there may be significant drain on the battery (air conditioning?) while in neutral; and you may be in a very long car wash.
You can put the Toyotas in neutral, but you need to lift a special hatch and manually unlock the shifter. You need to do that if you're being towed. It's all in the manual, of course. I saw the hatch immediately. It's crazy to me that other geeks haven't checked every knob and hatch in their car or at least skimmed the manual.
You can leave it in neutral and exit the car, obviously, but the car is started.
But. The other points made felt muddled or even contradictory. I either didn't follow the TC guy's explanation closely enough, or the script could have used another pass.
I've seen some modern hybrids just have a visualizer for this on the dash to encourage you to coast more and things, which seems about as helpful in understanding it too.
computer could use Otto cycle in case more power is needed in rare situations
Toyota introduced this exact behaviour with their "Variable Valve Timing-intelligent Electric" (VVT-iE) system:
https://toyota-club.net/files/faq/16-01-01_faq_vvt_ie_eng.ht...
It uses an electric motor to control intake valve timing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koenigsegg_TFG
The hybrid battery is super-easy to reach, and since Toyota stuck with NiMH for so long, it's extremely reliable across temperatures, and the cells are dirt cheap.
I have to help family members with car repairs every so often, and the Prius not having a power steering pump, an alternator, a starter motor, or even a normal transmission, means that it's actually feasible to stay on top of repairs as a non-mechanic.
In my brother's Ford fusion, it's a totally different experience, where it feels like Ford cut every single corner they could. I understand that their sedan line was dying, and I could really see why.
It's interesting that Toyota has two hybrid models: one for efficiency and one for low-end torque performance.
Actually, another thing was that the visibility out of the Sienna seemed quite bad.
Visibility is fine, comparable to other minivans and much better than a few older models. It no longer has rear vent windows, which is a pity.
The software for the infotainment system is horrifying. Everything else is quite good.
https://eahart.com/prius/psd/
One can dream I guess.
The Prius (and all subsequent Synergy Drive cars) were widely known - from the very beginning - to be extremely fuel efficient ICE cars. As time went on, they universally became known to be both fuel efficient and also absolutely bomb proof.
Both of those things surprised basically no-one, since the direct successors (Camry, Corolla, 4Runner, Tacoma, Hilux) were also already known for being fuel efficient and reliable cars.
The only people who really care about why and how exactly they got so fuel efficient and reliable are engineering nerds - and many of those already knew, the planetary gear set + atkinson cycle engine are a pretty legendary design. They hit it out of the park on the first try, after all.
And as this video shows, explaining the why and how to non-engineering nerds takes a good part of an hour anyway. How do you do marketing with that?
After 430km my fuel usage is exactly as per the start of this video at 6.9L/100km.
Being in South Africa, the affordability of this vehicle compared to an EV makes this the most sensible purchase for me at this point of time. Also, it seems that BYD's price might be especially good right now due it trying to gain market share.
I wouldn't buy one with the noise either. I was annoyed daily that there was a loud beep during backup, which is the first thing I had to do every time I got in the car -- that beeping was inside the cabin.
Mine was apparently before that. I bought it strictly for the commute as I was really tired of shifting in stop and go traffic. People talk about having having power from low rpm's like we're drag racing, but the real win is in stop and go. Mileage also great in that situation.
But once the car hit 100k miles, it just became a nightmare with maintenance. Everything was special and somehow tied together.
More of a Toyota issue, but they wouldn't recall the headlights ceasing to work -- each one had to be replaced with their computer control something for $700. Who needs headlights? Also the rubber pad to open the trunk melted -- this happened to quite a few Prius owners in a certain time frame -- toyota insisted we all spilled something that melts rubber on a pad that faces downward.
I would be open to a hybrid, but I just bought a Honda Civic instead.
To be fair, though, classic "slushbox" autos actually were/are garbage, as are chain actuated CVTs. The hybrid system gets you immediate acceleration like an electric, none of this awful lag you get with a slushbox.
It's hilarious to me that 34mpg is considered remarkably good, though. I know it's a "minivan" but my Golf GTI gets 42mpg and is actually fun and arguably cool. I can also fit 5 people, furniture, and 2.4m lengths of timber in it comfortably.
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O61WihMRdjM
I was curious too, I have a manual, petrol engine, Citroën C4 Picasso (called a minivan in English I think? but then I didn't think a Golf GTI was called a minivan so I'm not sure) from 2011 that's not hybrid at all and that's about what I get (7 L/100 km). It's comfortable to be in but not interesting to drive at all though.
I get a very consistent 4,3 L/100 km (54 mpg) on my diesel C4 (basically the same size as a Golf GTI) from 2013 and I like driving this one.
edit now that I've read the sibling comment, Google uses US gallons for its conversions and that's what I've used here.
Also remember we use different 20% smaller gallons than you do in Europe. 34 miles per US gallon is about 41 miles per imperial gallon.
https://www.carsized.com/en-us/cars/compare/volkswagen-golf-...
In the same US tests with US spec vehicles, the Sienna actually achieves considerably better fuel economy. Quite impressive given the size difference:
https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=49303&id=5...
Ohhhh... That would be it then. Yeah, that's very impressive. I definitely feel like these super-efficient petrols are the sweet spot right now.