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#flock#crime#cameras#council#https#surveillance#don#makes#criminals#more

Discussion (90 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

Bjartrabout 2 hours ago
The link under "would be introducing measures"[1] has the full statement from the councilmember where he describes the proposals he will be bringing:

> A Modest Proposal for Digital Device Prohibition: A total ban on all cellular and GPS-capable devices for all operations within city limits.

> A Modest Proposal for Total Surveillance Abolition (Residential & Commercial): A total ban on all outward-facing cameras

> A Modest Proposal for Total Municipal and Commercial Decommissioning: A total termination of all internet services and electronic record-keeping

For those that didn't catch the reference, he's alluding to the 1729 publication by Jonathan Swift, author of Gulliver's Travels

>A Modest Proposal For preventing the children of poor people in Ireland, from being a burden on their parents or country, and for making them beneficial to the publick.

Which was a satirical work suggesting that the Irish poor's financial woes could be addressed by eating children, thus feeding people while reducing resource demand.

[1] https://www.banderabulletin.com/article/3093,council-votes-t...

bathtub365about 1 hour ago
Openly admitting he’ll be wasting taxpayer time and money on frivolous proposals because he didn’t get his way through the democratic process. Thankfully the democratic process can go against him even further and remove him from office at their next opportunity and he can find somewhere else to throw a tantrum.
tptacek29 minutes ago
I don't see how you can be at all engaged with local politics and not be familiar with performative (and even temper-tantrumy) proposed resolutions and ordinances.

That the resolutions are literally titled "modest proposals" makes this article so much cringier.

happytoexplain25 minutes ago
It sounds like you're saying the parent shouldn't be critical of this practice because it is common, which obviously doesn't follow, but I could be interpreting your comment wrongly.
jagged-chiselabout 2 hours ago
Those first two are great if adopted by and for their local government office.

Third one makes no sense.

intrikateabout 2 hours ago
"...Flowers said, "I believe personally that guilty people act defensively. If you don't have anything to hide, then it shouldn't be a problem."

Oh boy, back to this crap again. If that's true, for you to be acting this defensively sure is sending some signal.

LocalH13 minutes ago
Check his business connections
deepsquirrelnetabout 2 hours ago
Baked into that is a presumption of justice, which is becoming comically out of touch to the point where that overused phrase could be a meme.
summermusic33 minutes ago
"I don't need privacy because my actions are questionable, I need privacy because your judgement and intentions are."
arikrahmanabout 4 hours ago
I was expecting the headline to be sensational but a crash out was exactly what happened. The bad faith non-sequiturs is the cherry on top.
tclancyabout 2 hours ago
Yeah, it's even worse because the Johnathan Swift reference makes clear just how I Am Very Smart this dude is.
mghackerladyabout 1 hour ago
It would maybe be fine if it was just, like, one modest proposal instead of three of them
tclancyabout 1 hour ago
Does feel immodest.
SpicyLemonZestabout 3 hours ago
I think that any headline informing you of the goings-on in the city council of Bandera, Texas (population 829) is necessarily sensational. If you don't live in the area, there's no possible value to this content other than confirming preconceived biases.
msabalauabout 3 hours ago
That's an odd way of viewing it.

Having the reporting from the local paper amplified outside the immediate community strengthens the signal, and supports the general norm of holding officials accountable.

"No man is an island entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main"

SpicyLemonZestabout 3 hours ago
Strengthens what signal? The local coverage does not say anything about "crashing out". It states that the council has voted to terminate the contract after an initial approval, in response to public opposition, and publishes a dissenting statement from one of the councilmembers in full.

The author could have amplified that non-sensational article and tied it in with the Youtube clips and other non-sensational articles he found; there's good journalism lurking in here. But instead he wanted to be sensational.

happytoexplainabout 2 hours ago
You imply that the population number is the reason we shouldn't care, but then you say explicitly that it's the fact that we don't live there. Both seem nonsensical without further elaboration?
SpicyLemonZestabout 1 hour ago
It's easy to understand why false news can distort your understanding of the world. If a journalist convinces you that X happened when actually it did not happen, you'll have a wrong belief which makes it harder to understand what's going on. What's more challenging to understand is the phenomenon called "sensationalism", where accurate news distorts your understanding of the world.

Crime coverage is usually the easiest starting point. You can, and some people do, continually scan the country for crimes. Then when such a crime happens, you publish an emotive article declaring that it happened. Crime is of course bad, so each of these articles will make sense on its own terms; poor innocent victims who've been hurt or killed by evil men deserve sympathy! But if you only ever publish content on crime from within that framing, your readers will inevitably start to conclude that it's the only framing, and crime policy should primarily be focused on protecting us innocent potential victims from the hordes of evil men who want to hurt us.

Hopefully that makes sense. If it does, then I'd encourage you to take that critical eye and turn it to the 404Media Flock coverage (https://www.404media.co/tag/flock/). When you scroll through, does it seem like they're carefully studying Flock to keep you informed on the policy landscape surrounding it? Or does it seem like they're searching for the most sensational Flock-related stories they can find?

nemomarxabout 3 hours ago
anecdotes about whether people like Flock cameras where they live are kinda useful, I think? maybe it'll inspire other city council votes elsewhere
SpicyLemonZestabout 3 hours ago
Anecdotes about whether people like Flock cameras are useful. Anecdotes about how one specific guy who likes Flock made an overheated analogy are not useful. The author conflating the two is a dictionary-perfect example of sensationalism.
0xbadcafebeeabout 3 hours ago
Do they not get that surveillance doesn't actually make anything safe? It makes it so you can prosecute after the crime has already been committed. It's not like thieves will go "I was going to rob this 7-11, but damn, they have security cameras inside!" The cameras are there to intimidate. Criminals aren't intimidated by prison time.
ianm218about 3 hours ago
To steelman the other side of this - you are basically wrong. One of the strongest deterrants for crime is how likely people think they are to be apprehended. If people were basically certain they would be caught their propensity for crime is low. [1]. Criminals aren't intimidated by prison time you are right but they are intimidated by getting apprehended.

Now I hate the idea of Flock and think we should basically fully ban facial recognition technology, license plate readers, and similar topics. It is just too dangerous if the wrong people get in power. But we should make sure we are making real, fact based arguments.

[1]. https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/670398

trollbridgeabout 3 hours ago
More cameras doesn’t necessarily mean more apprehensions and convictions though.
johnnyanmacabout 2 hours ago
> One of the strongest deterrants for crime is how likely people think they are to be apprehended.

The strongest deterrent for the general populace.

Generally speaking, crime rates tend to be pretty low already. So the sample shifts from general populace to those who already commit crimes, or in such an emotional fervor that they gain the capacity for crime.

Among that population, I don't think surveillance cameras are stopping much.

ianm21842 minutes ago
I don't know what you are basing your opinions on here but the literature is pretty clear that their main concern is how likely they think they will be apprehended and cameras + technology + law enforcement clearly make that more likely.
kspacewalk2about 3 hours ago
The argument about surveillance isn't whether it helps catch criminals (which obviously prevents some further crime), it obviously does. And yes, security cameras make places harder targets for thieves and robbers and criminals are intimidated by prison time. This seems almost axiomatically so to me, not sure what your argument against this could conceivably be.

The argument about surveillance is whether the negative trade-off (lack of privacy) is worth it.

ianm218about 3 hours ago
I responded to OP but he correct that criminals are not overly concerned by amount of prison time but the act of being apprehended itself https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/670398. Flock is still awful though
kspacewalk2about 2 hours ago
Well, I'd say security cams and Flock affect the likelihood of apprehending a suspect, not so much the amount of prison time, so the argument still holds - you can't claim they won't have an effect.
mckn1ghtabout 3 hours ago
> Criminals aren't intimidated by prison time.

I’m sure this is true for a subset but is not universal. I imagine just as big a subset or even the majority of criminals simply think they are smart enough to get away with the crime.

Assume a perfect world where this system resulted in swift capture and high conversion on charges to convictions to the point where it becomes a pop culture fact that petty crime wouldn’t pay anymore. Does the next generation of criminals still believe they won’t get away with it? Or does the criminal population shrink?

Of course people don’t just stop being poor simply because crime is more effectively rooted out, but maybe their efforts would be redirected towards the power structures that allow poverty to continue vs each other, like would be the case if you rob a 7-11 franchise.

curiouser2about 3 hours ago
VoidWhispererabout 3 hours ago
Since these town council members are elected, I hope this guy has no aspirations of getting elected again, because he basically just showed everyone in his town that he can't be reasonable - that it is either none (no electronics at all) or all (privacy invading stuff like Flock)
OkayPhysicistabout 3 hours ago
It's Texas. Being reasonable is not a prerequisite for winning elections. If anything, it's a handicap.
1vuio0pswjnm7about 2 hours ago
Flowers would make a great HN commenter

Classic "all-or-nothing", "black and white" argument style

It's either one extreme or another

If the town wants to ban Flock cameras then surely it also wants to ban all outward-facing cameras, GPS-capable devices, cellular network devices, internet service and electronic record-keeping

There is no option to go back to a few years ago before Flock cameras were installed. Nope, the town must go back to "1880, paper ledgers and cash only"

Totally absurd

beepbooptheoryabout 3 hours ago
Just wanna say I am happy 404media is, presumably, not banned here anymore!
Benderabout 2 hours ago
Does not appear to be any more. [1] If I remember correctly dang said that at one point the site required membership to view articles.

[1] - https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=404media.co

jayd16about 2 hours ago
How useful could it be if the poles are vandalized regularly?
rolphabout 2 hours ago
yea, verily, quite usefull as demonstration of enticement to crimes against property, at the behest of such devices.
wagwangabout 3 hours ago
:) he's not wrong, it is all surveillance
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kube-systemabout 3 hours ago
Sounds like it is the ripe time for others to respond earnestly with a GDPR-like proposal for all internet and phone providers :)
fred_is_fredabout 3 hours ago
Does Texas have open records law for politicians? He's taking this personally, which means he has a personal stake in the outcome.
zikduruqeabout 3 hours ago
everyoneabout 2 hours ago
I think going on the internet should require an internet driving license. The test to get one would include displaying the ability to tell reality from fantasy.
dogleashabout 3 hours ago
Doesn't he know you have to be tech-coded to have unhinged takes on the necessity and inevitability of ubiquitous intrusive surveillance and be taken seriously?
ofjcihenabout 4 hours ago
[flagged]
dawnerdabout 3 hours ago
The other day I half-jokingly said I was going to build a site to expose local council members for taking kickbacks and someone said "that isn't happening"

It's literally happening and this story makes it really clear. I wish it was this easy to spot. It's usually Flock donating to some charity a council person is also a board member on

gruezabout 3 hours ago
>It's literally happening and this story makes it really clear

A council member "crashing out" (ie. proposing some satirical bills) is "really clear" evidence of kickbacks? Seems like a stretch. At the very least I'd want evidence of some transaction having occurred, rather than "wow you strongly support something I can't possibly imagine anyone would support? You must be getting kickbacks!"

pogopop77about 2 hours ago
In a small town of 900 people, it seems odd a council member would be THAT upset about removing license plate reading camera systems, when it's clear the town doesn't want it. To get flustered enough to start proposing sarcastic bills, it's not a stretch to immediately think that there's at least some political maneuvering behind it, if not blatant kickbacks.
Benderabout 2 hours ago
In my opinion that should be enough to get some investigative journalists and private investigators poking around. Assuming investigative journalists are still a thing.
tptacekabout 3 hours ago
No, the municipal policy ALPR debate generally does boil down to people who have a principles opposition to technology specialized for surveillance, and other people who believe it's no different from the cell towers that already track you.

Nobody's bribing a councilmember in an 800-person rural township.

bob001about 3 hours ago
> Nobody's bribing a councilmember in an 800-person rural township.

I suspect this happens a lot more often than people assume. It does not take much to bribe people to change their minds based on the publicly known international spy/espionage cases. People will sell out their country for like $5k.

dawnerdabout 3 hours ago
And besides, these days no ones giving straight cash to bribe, it's always via other means that are harder to trace and maybe not even directly monetary (sending them on a vacation, golfing, donations to charity...).

It's weird that people seem to act like lobbying doesn't exist at the city council level.

helterskelterabout 2 hours ago
I've lived in a small community (pop<1000) and a budget of $5K could turn you into a shadow mayor.
tptacekabout 3 hours ago
First Law of Message Boards: bribery is fun to talk about, people just disagreeing about stuff and having little temper tantrums when they lose arguments is boring, ergo: bribery is everywhere.
johnnyanmacabout 3 hours ago
I think a lot about another comment from a while ago that donated 100 dollars or something to his city. That had his state govenor personally call him to thank him in a 5 minute call.

It's not a bribe, but if a govenor is placing his time @ 1200/hour for an individualized bow of gratitude, I can only imagine how cheap it is for a not good govenor to sell out for his own personal interests.

At the scale these tech trillionaires are working, why not throw a few pennies at some small councilman?

daviduabout 3 hours ago
This has not happened with Flock, nor have they ever been credibly accused of this. And what a weak conspiracy style post to insinuate it has.
blurriabout 3 hours ago
Because proposing legislation to ban all technology after your vote to keep Flock was not in the majority is a totally normal response?
downrightmikeabout 3 hours ago
Doubt, we just haven't figured out the shells
dogleashabout 3 hours ago
> nor have they ever been accused of this

Sure they have. Just look at the accusation in the comment you're replying to.

daviduabout 3 hours ago
credibly accused.
kotaKatabout 3 hours ago