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#party#more#starmer#criminal#serious#offence#labour#right#government#internal

Discussion (91 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

OgsyedIEabout 2 hours ago
Whilst the value of the pound and NHS backlog did slowly improve under Starmer, my favourite part of his term was the 2024 interview where he described himself as not dreaming or having internal thoughts.

I don't expect huge improvements under Burnham but I hope for at least some police manpower numbers to recover. There have been intermittent stories of planning, FSA and trading standards personnel being threatened by armed gangs in the last few years which is an indicator of some new severe gaps in state capacity.

pjc50about 2 hours ago
The police swerved hard into deploying state capacity against exactly the wrong people: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2026/03/12/more-women-arres...

Meanwhile ignoring the actually violent far right to the point that we had arson attacks in Belfast and a stabbing spree killer in Edinburgh.

AlecSchuelerabout 1 hour ago
> to the point that we had arson attacks in Belfast

Not to argue against the point you're making but these aren't good examples. Policing in both Northern Ireland and Scotland are fully devolved and operate independently of the government in Westminster.

pjc50about 1 hour ago
True. The modern far right is both a social media and traditional media driven phenomenon, internationally, and I don't have great suggestions for dealing with it other than "maybe the government should boycott Twitter before they ban sixteen year olds from it".
black627 minutes ago
What were the Belfast arson and Edinburgh stabbing in response to?
bbg240144 minutes ago
The stabbing spree killer in Edinburgh? How many people were killed?
mytailorisrichabout 2 hours ago
Police has no choice but to arrest people who commit a serious criminal offence on purpose and very publicly. It would undermine their credibility and the rule of law not to arrest them.

This is orthogonal with how police should tackle the violence you mention.

Edit in response to @pjc50's replay below:

The signs are a serious criminal offence. Supporting a proscribed terror organisation is a serious criminal offence according to the law and arrest is unavoidable.

Edit 2: What constitutes a "serious criminal offence" is not subjective based on one's personal opinion, it is what the law defines as such...

pjc5039 minutes ago
> What constitutes a "serious criminal offence" is not subjective based on one's personal opinion, it is what the law defines as such

This was literally a decision Starmer personally made, to put Palestine Action on the proscribed organization list. Without that the signs would not be an offence.

pjc50about 2 hours ago
The attack on Brieze Norton was a serious criminal offence. The signs are not, no matter how much people want to pretend they are to conflate the two issues.

The police always have a choice as to which crimes they investigate. This is why petty theft in London is almost totally ignored.

(and the underlying decision to proscribe Palestine action was, of course, taken by Keir Starmer. It is a significant part of why he is out now.)

(edit war: "the signs are a serious criminal offence" -- this is why the Americans will be laughing at us about freedom of speech when they wake up on this forum.)

I don't see corresponding arrests being deployed against Twitter posters who were supporting the riots in Belfast, including the firebombing of immigrant homes, for example. I guess that's because they're not an organisation with a name, which is the important thing, rather than the actual violence?

OgsyedIEabout 2 hours ago
How can this be squared with the decisions to not prosecute burglars, drug dealers, rapists and armed gangs, however? They are all people who commit serious criminal offences on purpose in Britain today without facing arrest.
Splinter_enthabout 1 hour ago
Regardless of the rights and wrong policy wise: Starmer was not a people person. I was as big a remainer as you'd ever find, and even I have to admit Boris Johnson could work people. Starmer was so inept in his day to day handling of his fellow humans it's surreal.

My personal favourite (and not the only example, but my own final straw) was his response when a large chunk of his traditional electorate voted for a female Plumber 'who wanted to make work pay for working people' and build 'healthier communities' is worth watching as an example of how to make more people jump ship.

For better or worse I signed up for the Green Party on the spot when I read that.

He was possibly a good backroom manager and well intentioned, but for leadership... no.

OgsyedIEabout 1 hour ago
I didn't see that response, was it as bad as when he told his base the door was open and they should leave?
pjc50about 1 hour ago
His Home Secretary telling the voters to fuck off was another good one: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2026/04/21/shabana-mahm...

(note that the mirror image of this, the Gordon Brown being secretly taped talking about a bigoted woman, was considered career ending!)

reedf1about 2 hours ago
I know you probably didn't mean it that way - but people with aphantasia are often very creative, and visionary despite.
mmahemoffabout 2 hours ago
Aphantasia doesn’t preclude having dreams or internal dialogue/thought.
rapseyabout 2 hours ago
Well that sure as hell does not describe starmer.
SirFattyabout 2 hours ago
"not dreaming or having internal thoughts."

Internal thoughts or internal voice?

MichaelZuoabout 2 hours ago
Well the bigger issue is that none of the major parties in the UK have any kind of sensible list of priorities, that they can actually whip the MPs to stick to.

So governance is, at best, semi random…

bluescrnabout 2 hours ago
And he'll be just as powerless to solve any of the big problems as the last half a dozen PMs.
gaddersabout 2 hours ago
Well Starmer had a massive majority and could have got whatever was needed passed to sort out public finances, but his MPs rebelled (or he chickened out).
throwaway2744817 minutes ago
He was elected to ensure nothing corbyn worked for would succeed, and in that sense he was perfect.
cryo32about 2 hours ago
People forget that the government is still mostly the civil service. The thin veneer of politicians over the top doesn't change the operating constraints of the UK unless you can spend a long time on the matter and reshape things slowly. Which was what was happening until this mess.

Now it's start again...

marysol5about 2 hours ago
And were being dealt with quite well by Starmer, but that wasn't good enough somehow
markus_zhangabout 2 hours ago
Just a symptom of late Capitalism. They are all like this one but with different flavor.
rapseyabout 2 hours ago
A completely pointless exercise for all involved. Rearranging deck chairs of the titanic that is the labour party.
stirloabout 2 hours ago
The issue isn’t the Labour Party it’s the entire country. Brexit has been a disaster, energy costs are through the roof, housing is becoming more costly, and there’s been no real economic growth in a decade.

But no one wants suffer the temporary pain to make the reforms needed to change it. They just want to grumble and say the current leader isn’t any good before moving onto the next one, rather than admitting they might need to actually accept some change in the country.

JumpCrisscrossabout 2 hours ago
> no one wants suffer the temporary pain to make the reforms needed to change it

If you could get one bill through Parliament, what would it do?

roenxiabout 2 hours ago
There shouldn't be any temporary pain from bringing energy costs down or letting the economy grow (on a per-capita basis I suppose, politicians do tend to try and cheat with migration). It would be good for everyone, or at worst neutral with wildly rare exceptions who are worse off. Which does make it a bit of a mystery why the UK and a number of other Western polities put up such a determined struggle against the two.
pjc50about 2 hours ago
People are desperate for change! It's just that due to a misinformation fuelled online (and traditional media!) environment, nobody can agree what that is.
rapseyabout 2 hours ago
Disagree. Every one of the issues you mentioned is a direct result of labour/tory uniparty ideology. Netzero, endless migrants, insane taxation and so on.
cassianolealabout 2 hours ago
There is one thing that might be in his power: to stop censoring and arresting people protesting against genocide.

Edit: lol thanks HN for the usual downvote! :) I love this place!

bluescrnabout 1 hour ago
Locking up placard-wavers is stupid, but so is intentionally waving a placard with the name of a proscribed group, when just about any other message supporting the cause would be fine.

If you do a million pounds in criminal damage and attack a police officer with a sledgehammer, you can't just write it off as 'direct action', you deserve a tough jail sentence whatever the cause.

throwaway2744815 minutes ago
> proscribed group

If the government is legitimately evil for proscribing a group they should be able to deal with their constituents calling them out for it. Materially hindering a genocide is by all currently accepted human standards a good thing.

OgsyedIEabout 2 hours ago
I'm opposed too but there's little recognizance of the poor position the UK is in. Under the current decline of Britain's economic foundations, having enough diesel and gas to keep the lights on and the lorries running depends on imports from the US, which could well be banned overnight if the president - any president - feels they need to crack the whip.

Opposing the Oval Office means shortages in the supermarkets, gas power stations turning off and a bond crash that makes the DWP lack the liquidity to service all of the monthly state pension payments, besides a great many other problems.

cryo32about 1 hour ago
Ah yes the lovely protesters who spat on me, called me a baby killer and pretended they were going to punch me when I got stuck in the middle of them and said "I don't have time for this - I need to get to my mother" while I was trying to get to my dying mother in hospital and walked right into them leaving a tube station.

Fuck 'em. Sympathy gone.

Also I vote on local policy. The Middle East is a big political distraction from what's actually going on here. 99.9% of us can do fuck all about the Middle East and I suspect 90% of the country couldn't give a flying fuck about it either. But you know the council spent time on a meeting so they have a gaza policy but can't collect the bins reliably.

marysol5about 2 hours ago
You mean Palestine Action specifically, because the leadership of that group are violent terrorists.

It's weird how you people never notice that NOBODY else is "arrested"

OgsyedIEabout 2 hours ago
Over 2,000 middle aged women have been arrested as terrorists on the basis of holding protest signs though, it's been widely reported.
gaddersabout 2 hours ago
...or any topic really. More people on the right than the left are being jailed for hurty words.
JumpCrisscrossabout 2 hours ago
Getting constantly distracted by foreign-policy items 90% of voters barely care about is how the UK wound up in this mess.
BadBadJellyBean13 minutes ago
I think this is getting ridiculous.

My proposal: Let's get rid of the position of PM altogether. Maybe then the musical chairs will stop.

mellosoulsabout 2 hours ago
Ridiculous and undemocratic.

Burnham (for those who are unaware) can be best described as a Tony Blair B-side, and is most notable from his previous stint in government for his role in the Private Finance Initiative disaster, eg:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/jun/28/labour-debt-peter...

mbmbnabout 2 hours ago
Why undemocratic? I thought parliamentary elections in UK worked like in most of Europe: you vote for a party, not a candidate.

At least here, it already happened, to have the PM resigning and then someone else from the party to pick up the role and that’s legally sound.

gaiagraphiaabout 2 hours ago
You vote for a local candidate, who may belong to a party. The candidate can switch party, resign from the party, etc, and will still keep his seat.

Whoever can prove to the King he can 'command the confidence of the house' is given the title of Prime Minister, and is free to form a government.

Unfortunately the system has flaws, and a sizeable chunk of people treat it all as a Presidential vote by proxy.

greengreengrassabout 2 hours ago
> I thought parliamentary elections in UK worked like in most of Europe: you vote for a party, not a candidate.

They are. It's a parliamentary system, not a presidential system. Nobody votes directly for who will become PM, who is ultimately selected by the monarch as the person who can best command a majority of the House of Commons – normally the leader of the biggest party, of course, but not necessarily. Perpetuating this view is frustrating because it's not what the system is designed for, and I feel a common misconception among voters that they are "electing the PM".

With the increasing breaking of two-party politics, it would not surprise me if we see this precedent of the monarch choosing a PM who can command a majority tested in close outcomes in future GEs where no party gains an overall majority. I'll be particularly interested to see how the press describes such an outcome, if it occurs, especially if the result is that the party with the most votes doesn't go on to join such a coalition.

Nevertheless, it frustrates me when these changes are described as "undemocratic", as that's a common talking point perpetuated by a poor understanding of the constitutional basis of UK elections. If there is a desire that the PM should be directly elected, that would mean a substantial rewiring of the UK constitution more broadly.

mytailorisrichabout 2 hours ago
Agree with your first sentence but he is described as being on the very left wing of the party and, if he becomes PM, it will be with the support of the left wing, not the blairites.
marysol5about 2 hours ago
Then we will have a hot-minute before they're utterly hating him and demanding he goes too
throwaway27448about 2 hours ago
Same problems, different face.
bmsleight_about 2 hours ago
The power of having a parliamentary system. Combined with the power of 77,462 residents of Makerfield.

Love the UK - we can be brutal if MPs want a leader .

postepowanieadmabout 2 hours ago
Will he last longer than a cabbage?
DarkNova6about 2 hours ago
Starmer was the UK version of Joe Biden. He was the right guy to get Labor back on track and sort out the financial disaster left by the Tories. But he couldn't build a convincing vision of the future.

But replacing it with another guy that has no mandate is a fatal mistake. What Labor needed was an internal contest to fight for the best ideas, even if the winner was already pre-determined. A single local poll can't possibly decide the future of the country.

But perhaps the idea is to trigger a re-election because a "continue as usual" will be fatal for Labour and the country.

socoabout 1 hour ago
Provided you do have more than one candidate for the job - Streeting already said nah...
roenxiabout 2 hours ago
I'm not entirely certain of the electoral details, but the UK Labour party is neck-and-neck with the UK Conservatives for falling from being a top-2 party [0]. This type of decisive reform may be sufficient to keep them out of 3rd place, so it is worth a try. The voters could take to it.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_U...

pjc50about 2 hours ago
The collapse of the ancient Conservative party to behind not one but two crank astroturf right-wing parties is something to behold.
ulfwabout 2 hours ago
No need to get used to him. Won't last long either.
mytailorisrichabout 3 hours ago
Out of the frying pan and into the fire?
joenadaabout 2 hours ago
Burnham down the house.
jjgreenabout 3 hours ago
Give the Manc a chance!
jcsagerabout 2 hours ago
He's not a Manc, he's a Scouser originally.
dude250711about 2 hours ago
Why not like borrow lots of money and spend it all? That would be so cool!
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cryo32about 2 hours ago
Might as well just hand Farage the next general election at this rate. The last decade has been personality cult after personality cult. We had the start of stability and have thrown chaos in again. Just what the opposition want.
PaulHouleabout 2 hours ago
You mean Starmer has a personality?
cryo32about 2 hours ago
God no. None at all. That's what we need though. No more bloody populist snakes!
poly2itabout 2 hours ago
Just one more minister, I promise you, just one more and all politics will resolve. Come on, just one more and it will fix everything. Please just one more. One more minister and we can fix the whole problem.

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/one-more-lane-bro-one-more-la...

alsetmusicabout 1 hour ago
> Here's a look at his 'Manchesterism' vision and economic model for Britain, which he describes as "business-friendly socialism"

I admit to knowing very little (close to nothing) about UK politics. But I'm happy to see the use of "socialism" in up-front talking points. It's at least a nod in the right direction.

> He says years of privatization and deregulation have not only stripped the government of control over its costs and services but also saddled it with inefficiencies.

Ok, also seems reasonable.

> Burnham campaigned for Britain to stay in the European Union at the time of the Brexit referendum in 2016.

Yes, still good (on the surface, anyway).

> Farage's party has been well ahead of Labour in opinion polls for many months.

Unrelated to the stuff directly above but still disappointing. Dems and Labour need to do a better job or disaffected people will continue to listen to the siren song of fascists telling them that their problems are caused by THE SPOOKY OTHER.