Incentives Are for Losers

Ozzie_osman•3 minutes ago

I loved this. Unfortunately, I don't know how realistic it is at this point. The entire modern Western system is built on incentives, and it would require dramatically changing the social order and economic system.

zdc1•26 minutes ago

Completely agree. Incentives are for the statistical masses.

As thinking individuals we can and should use our awareness and courage to make biggest "good" choices we can bear to. We can't all be zero-waste vegan community organisers lobbying for renewables and free education/healthcare, but I doubt living life with the blinders on leads any kind of moral or spiritual growth or fulfilment either.

Swizec•8 minutes ago

> As thinking individuals we can and should use our awareness and courage to make biggest "good" choices we can bear to.

That’s the cool thing about incentives, we follow them whether we realize it or not. “bear to” is where the incentives are hiding. We don’t make the best choices, we choose from the choices available to us.

You can’t fight your environment forever.

If the gooder choice is 50km away and the bad choice is down the street, eventually you’ll stop going 50km out of your way every day because it’s just too cumbersome. You might even do it “just this once” because you had a busy day and your kid is crying and you’re just so tired and then before you know it, it’s been months or even years since the last time you did the cumbersome better thing.

bawolff•about 1 hour ago

>My real gripe with this line of thinking is it implies that incentives should be obeyed, that it is normal or even noble to do so, and that is perhaps impossible to do otherwise. How could you be expected to break a rule, forego a promotion, or give up decimal of your grade point average, for the sake of—what? Doing the right thing?

But this misunderstands incentive based analysis.

The point isn't just that people naturally follow incentives, but that those who refuse are punished and no longer in a position to affect the world.

Taking a principled stand is great and all, but if the result is simply that you get fired and replaced by someone better at following orders, you didn't really fix the problem.

Of course it's more complicated than that. Certainly other people being willing to do evil is no excuse to do evil yourself. Maybe your principled stand inspires others and you start a revolution or something. But that's rare. In the average case incentives win. Which is why if you want to actually change the world for the better you should attack the incentives not the individuals - individuals can be replaced, but millions are willing to follow incentives.

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The rest of the article seems to be about developing your own morality, but morality is really just yet another incentive.

cm11•3 minutes ago

Agreed, but I think some logic follows that as increasingly more incentives are needed then maybe people just don't have these principles. People seem to want it both ways—both to get the thing they want, but to be seen as not having taken it. To be seen as principled without standing for the principle. So we hear that taking a "principled stand is great and all, but". That line is right, it just implies the person doesn't believe that much in the principle.

jaggederest•about 1 hour ago

Maybe more succinctly: incentives work whether anyone cares or not, which is broadly the hallmark of good public policy. As foolish as relying on heroism in technology, so too is relying on perfect behavior from the citizenry in government.

Reubend•31 minutes ago

I think you've written a good counterargument, but I disagree with your claim that "morality is really just yet another incentive". Incentives must be external.

bwhiting2356•15 minutes ago

what alternative are people proposing?

phoronixrly•13 minutes ago

Oh what a relief to finally read a non-LLM-generated article. The creative expressions in it are tickling my brain

throwaway_7274•about 1 hour ago

<3 this so much

Incentives Are for Losers

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