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#law#gambling#sports#kalshi#long#basically#betting#until#vagueness#federal

Discussion (23 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

DannyBeeabout 1 hour ago
Lawyer here - As i explained last time we had a variant of this thread (see comment history if you are interested), this is a very complicated area that people try to make very simple.

It doesn't have to be complicated, mind you, but right now the way the law is written is basically:

1. Transmitting sports betting info between states is a federal crime unless it's legal in both states (18 U.S.C. § 1084(a))

2. The CEA regulations ban contracts that are illegal under state law (17 CFR 40.11)

3. Other forms of gambling/betting/contracts that are not sports are generally a-ok.

4. This is not a case of first impression, it's just getting relitigated because Kalshi doesn't want to follow the actual law. This has actually been pretty settled law for a long time, with new flareups maybe once a decade. Kalshi is just hoping to be treated like Uber was.

The third circuit's decision is pretty clearly "out there" in terms of existing caselaw.

However, this will end up at SCOTUS, and everything until then just doesn't matter. That will be a coin flip even though it shouldn't be

mullingitoverabout 1 hour ago
> “Congress did not take a wrecking ball to all sports gambling regulations built up over decades by federal, state, and tribal governments when it amended the (Commodity Exchange Act),” Judge Ryan Nelson wrote in the unanimous decision.

Incredible that it's taken this long to arrive at the obvious.

echelonabout 1 hour ago
Gambling is a negative externality that needs to be taxed.

Gambling takes advantage of the poor, under-educated, and addictive personalities and puts them into financial distress. This places burden on families, the state, and local municipalities. It creates strain on the workforce and deflects legitimate economic activity that would otherwise strengthen the economy.

We're a free society. I'm fine with gambling from a personal liberty perspective, but the companies that facilitate and profit need to pay 40-50% of their gross revenue to the government. That's comparable to tobacco.

Companies also need to be restricted in how they are able to advertise their vices. Never to children, and never targeted to at-risk personality types.

They also need to be tightly regulated and kept from using dark patterns and addictive gotcha mechanics to cause even greater harm to those most at risk.

jareklupinskiabout 1 hour ago
> companies need to pay 40-50% of their gross revenue to the government. That's comparable to tobacco.

taxing a vice is worth it on paper, but the second-order effects (nonstop alcohol ads, pervasive gambling app dark patterns) aren't worth it imo

combobyteabout 1 hour ago
When was the last time you saw an ad for cigarettes?

Those second-order effects are easy to mitigate with sensible public policy. And it's not like we have to invent the solution from scratch — we've done it before, very effectively.

karlgkkabout 1 hour ago
Or, at least treat it like a public health issue. Used to be that if you wanted to gamble, you had to physically to a dedicated gambling zone.
consensus1about 1 hour ago
Which we called the "stock market"
EA-3167about 1 hour ago
The law is slow by design, it's deliberative, it's multi-staged, it's escalatory and obsessed with consulting multiple jurists. That can be extremely frustrating until you start looking into how the country would look if individual judges were able to fast-track the whole system. Naturally we'd celebrate the positive outcomes, but the bad ruling would immediately go into effect rather than facing injunction, review, etc.

These laws have profound effects and it takes people time to learn about what they pertain to, especially new technology or new ways of using it. It's good to have periods of feedback between the public, the courts, the legislature and the executive branch. The same things that slow down what we most want to happen quickly also slow down the things we desperately want to avoid.

"If only the law moved as quickly as an individual" is great until you get a guy like Trump in power.

pennomiabout 1 hour ago
The law being slow is exactly why a guy like Trump in power is dealing so much damage. Nearly everything he’s done has been illegal, but the decisions often take so long that they have no effect.
delichonabout 1 hour ago
> As an example, the court explained that whether the Super Bowl happens is an “occurrence,” but who wins it is not.

This level of parsing looks like judicial legislation to me. Isn't it one occurrence if the Rams win and another if the Packers win? Better that they declare the law void for vagueness and give the legislature another shot at it. Guessing what the words mean, when it is not at all clear to professionals let alone to the average citizen does not give proper notification of what the law is to the people subject to it.

mandevilabout 1 hour ago
Everyone agreed that this (what the court ruled) was the plain meaning of the law up until Kalshi just decided to go for it. They basically did an Uber on the law, completely ignoring how it had long been interpreted and demanding someone stop them. And only once Kalshi wanted to make money on sports gambling did there start to be parsing like this, to try to argue that sports gambling was legal on a CFTC-regulated exchange. If Kalshi had gotten the law thrown out for vagueness then basically there was a road map for making any law that got in the way of a company making money thrown out for vagueness.

The key is that up until a few years ago basically the universal consensus was that sports gambling was not possible on a CFTC regulated exchange, then all of a sudden Kalshi did it and now they are trying to pay enough lawyers to get them to justify it. This ruling is not judicial legislation, this is demanding that companies actually follow the law.

delichonabout 1 hour ago
Declaring the law void for vagueness would not favor Kalshi. It would undercut the federal preemption that Kalshi is advocating for.
jmalicki20 minutes ago
Since when has vagueness been considered a bad thing for statutes? It's the foundation of the US (and anglo) legal system and why courts exist, to fill in. And vague statutes that can be interpreted by courts has long been preferred to precise legislated meaning that you seem to prefer.

You could live in Germany or France if you prefer a legal system more ruled by clear statute?

jmalickiabout 1 hour ago
From the opinion:

"Because the definitions of event and occurrence do not resolve the issue before us, we must also consider the statutory context"

They talk about this and the exact definitions for basically the entire opinion. It's not just "meh, I felt like it". They are dealing with how these words have been defined in prior statutes.

8note31 minutes ago
as an argument for sports betting as a market, i remember when the wrong team won the world series, and hadnt setup their correct merch and so on for online sales, and it was a disaster trying to get all the right stuff together to minimize fraud and abuse.

if an online sales provider could hedge against the risk of that win, the gamble would help pay for all the chaos as a result

hungryhobbitabout 3 hours ago
The appeals court found sports betting isn’t shielded by the federal law used to block Kris Mayes’ prosecution.
dcrazyabout 2 hours ago
Hope dang comes in with a headline rewrite
Detrytusabout 2 hours ago
and why would he do that? It is an actual title of the linked article.
lokarabout 1 hour ago
I wonder what this means for cases under loss recovery acts in states that have them.
morkalorkabout 1 hour ago
Rem when mafia bookies running sports betting was a subplot on The Soprano's? It wasn't that long ago.