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#relativity#models#benchmarks#theory#often#model#training#knowledge#something#benchmark
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Discussion (44 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews
Of course, throughput at one "level of work" is often latency at a higher level (like command-to-command execution, for example). So, "what matters" might be throughput or "latency". It all depends. :-) People often fiddle with such semantics to market methods, products, ideas, ... and marketing is often at cross purposes with understanding.
(There's https://withspecific.com/benchmarks/real-swe but since the tasks are private we still don't really know what they're representative of.)
I can profile some code and then tell you where the slow parts are. Unless there's some explanatory power to an AI benchmark, it's a bit like benchmarking pillows visually.
Benchmarks like Senior SWE-Bench apply discontinuous and arbitrary thresholds to evaluate results. If the generated code is semantically identical to the reference solution but even slightly exceeds a length cutoff, it fails? That seems like a genuinely flawed criterion, and the LLM-based graders themselves feel highly unstable.
Honestly, my impression is that LLM advancement is now completely dictated by benchmarks. But looking at recent trends, token prices are skyrocketing while coding capabilities haven't shown any massive improvements beyond a certain model generation. In fact, comparing GPT-6 Astra to 5.6 SOL, SOL often writes better code.
Considering all this, while training across diverse domains can pack a model with various pieces of knowledge, ultimately, it feels impossible for this approach to do something like derive the theory of relativity from medieval knowledge.
People have been saying this for at least 2 years now.
> token prices are skyrocketing
Today's SotA (fable and astra @ 50$ /Mtok output) are cheaper than o1-preview (sept '24, 60$ /Mtok output).
And other models are workhorses, with much better capabilities, are at least 1 oom cheaper today than o1-preview. (I'm using this model, since it was the first "thinking" model)
> it feels impossible for this approach to do something like
The models have just provided lean proofs for FLT (a ~1M$ project that was expected to take a human expert ~5 years to complete) and a Millennium prize problem. These are current, relevant, and previously unsolved problems. The obsession people have with "proving relativity from stone-age data" is just moving the goalposts.
For each generation of advancement the "AI psychosis" of the previous wave wears off. Those who believed 4.6's reasoning was an accurate account of its behaviour; those who believed it had goals and solved useful problems reliably; and so on -- now, attribute only these things to Fable. And no doubt when Fable 6 comes along, it will be only v. 6 that does that.
We have seen fairly marginal progress in LLM reliability and performance since the meaningful start of the high-inference/high-reasoning harness era. It just takes people a few model version bumps to break out of the addiction loop to realise this.
At some point progress will stall entirely, and a couple years after that the spell will break and people will stop treating LLMs "as AI" in the wide-eyed sense, and start treating them as unreliable tools that map Text->Text -- as they do now with earlier model versions.
Note also when a new benchmark is released, older models do worse on it than recent models, despite none of them being trained to the benchmark.
Perhaps it would be possible if the classically observed reality turned out to be possible (consistent under some reasonable conditions) only as a consequences of some deeper, sufficiently determined theory; but that would go far beyond our current level of knowledge, at least as far as I can say.
Which doesn't really stop you from training an LLM on 1904 knowledge and having it derive special relativity. LLMs trained with knowledge cutoffs that far back is a fun exercise, and one I've also dabbled in in the past. But you don't have anywhere near enough training data to reach SotA levels of intelligence, even if you had the money for those training runs. And lobotomizing all modern information out of LLMs doesn't seem viable either. So I don't see how you could ever turn that into a viable benchmark
Thinking otherwise mistakes a fundamental error that the only way for something to happen is how it historically happened. Reconciling observations forced relativity historically, but it could have been sussed out without those. That there were very fast but finite speed phenomena (which could motivate relativity reducing to Newtonian models) was seen in 1676 by Rømer with the speed of light and eclipses of Io, a Galilean moon of Jupiter. It probably could have been done with Galileo's telescopes in 1610. (That is just one example of a phenomenon with a very fast yet finite speed to suggest other experiments to test that "hypothetical relativity".)
TBH, this all relates to teaching "physics without calculus" and that sort of thing. Is the most clear presentation/derivation that which mirrors the history of our muddled yet ever demuddling ideas or that which starts from our most thoroughly demuddled ideas, best notations, etc.? The momentum is certainly the historical approach, yet there are notable exceptions.
Experimentation is the hammer that smashes all the incorrect theories.
Without the ability to do experimentation, deriving new laws is virtually impossible. A new next step for AI would be coming up with novel experiments, because that is often the hardest part.