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#english#finnish#used#german#dub#letter#www#why#agricola#example

Discussion (28 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

Sharlin•about 1 hour ago
The history of W in Finnish is interesting (for some values of "interesting"). Mikael Agricola [1], a Lutheran clergyman, essentially created literary Finnish from scratch in the 1500s (before that, Finnish had existed solely as a spoken, vernacular language, with official business conducted in Swedish (or German), and until the reformation, the language of the Church had of course been Latin).

Agricola had to create an alphabet for Finnish, and naturally borrowed heavily from Swedish and, to a lesser extent, German. His orthography was not particularly self-consistent, and for example the /u/ and /v/ phonemes might be written as either "u", "v", or "w" in Agricola's works. For example, the word uusi (/u:si/; "new") was written by him as "wsi", indeed using "w" as a literal "double-u". The /w/ sound did not exist in spoken Finnish.

Over time, Finnish became the almost entirely phonetic language that it is now, with letters matching phonemes essentially one-to-one. /u/ was regularized as "u" and /v/ as "v". As /w/ still doesn't exist, the letter "w" is very rarely used, mainly in some surnames as an alternative spelling of "v". In loanwords "w" becomes "v" (e.g. "whiskey" -> viski). Phonebooks also used to collate "v" and "w" as the same letter. Finns with a thick accent (see "Rally English" [2]) tend to pronounce the foreign /w/ as /v/ when speaking English, similar to Germans.

Today, imitation of Agricola's orthography is the Finnish version of "ye olde English", used for humorous or intensifying effect. For example, the word vanha "old" might be spelled "wanha" in the name of an antiques shop. "Wanha" also used to be a standard "old news" reply on IRC, especially to links that had already been pasted by someone (and this became so annoying on some channels that it became a kick-worthy offense).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikael_Agricola

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rally_English

zarzavat•about 1 hour ago
Would be remiss to not mention W's biopic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sg2j7mZ9-2Y
olexsmir•about 1 hour ago
just come here to link this video...
AnodicElegy•about 1 hour ago
The most irritating way in which W is odd is that it requires three syllables to name, while all the other English letters are monosyllabic. This leads to many unfortunate situations where it takes substantially longer to say the acronym of a title than to say the title itself. Take for example, the World Wildlife Fund, which contains four syllables (or maybe five, depending how you pronounce "wild") and whose acronym contains seven. Given how many acronyms contain the word "World" in particular, this is clearly a massive inefficiency in the way we go about our lives. I've started a campaign to rename it something reasonable like "woo" or "woe", but neither Reuters nor the AP seem particularly interested.
anon_cow1111•about 1 hour ago
Stupid, but related amusing nostalgia:

By default. Unreal Tournament 2003/4 used to have in-game text chat that would use the "Microsoft Sam" voice synthesizer to read player messages aloud to everyone in the room... MS Sam took so long to pronounce the letter "W /DoubleYou" that you could just go into a server and a drop a 512 character "W-bomb" and leave. Everyone in the room would have to listen to several minutes of dubbayou's assuming they never turned off the voice feature.

(I miss those days of genuinely annoying but still apolitical random trolling)

lynndotpy•14 minutes ago
There is precedent among English speakers for "dub" or "dubya".

George W. Bush is something referred to as "dubya", for the "W" part. And modern slang "W" or "dubs" as shorthand for "win".

"Dubya" fits in the ABC song just as well as double-you, while "dubs" can fit as "dubs and X, Y and Z".

You might have better luck with NPR, they assure me that they read every email.

ortusdux•about 1 hour ago
It's also the only letter that is not used in its own pronunciation. It really breaks the cadence of alphabet books!
nkrisc•about 1 hour ago
Or, of course, WWW (world-wide web) where each word of the acronym is itself a single syllable. This means the acronym is 6 syllables longer if you were speaking it.
jfengel•about 1 hour ago
In German it's called "vay". That's brief, and gets a few million people on your side.
anamexis•about 1 hour ago
Counterpoint: Ypsilon.
k__•about 1 hour ago
Fair, but Y isn't used much in German.
yongjik•about 1 hour ago
The name for "Y" starts with a "w" sound, so why not make it symmetric: let's call "Y" why and "W" yay.
fdcjjrvdcg•27 minutes ago
Ok I hate this and I love this. Yay indeed!
pavlov•about 1 hour ago
It’s commonly called “dub” when brevity is called for, as in “dub dub dub” = www.

Or is this just a tech industry idiom that I’ve been taking for granted…

roryirvine•about 1 hour ago
Though it does make you sound like a boy scout...

Wuh works better, imho, though it does tend to degrade into "wuh'uh'uh" when said quickly.

The BBC tried very hard in 1994/5 to persuade people to pronounce "http://www." as "hit web" - thankfully, that failed to gain any traction whatsoever.

fdcjjrvdcg•28 minutes ago
I don’t know… I always had a soft spot for “hit web”. Makes it sound so cool. It’s dumb but I quite like it :D
ButlerianJihad•11 minutes ago
We proposed “dub-three” in accord with a guy who was fighting the Clipper Chip
Sharlin•about 1 hour ago
Not to mention "www", which when pronounced is actually three times longer than its expansion.
sheept•6 minutes ago
For a native speaker in casual speech, it'll only be at most a bit slower than its expansion because English is stress-timed
dyzone•15 minutes ago
W is "double u"
Razengan•13 minutes ago
And that's why it's my favorite letter :)
ButlerianJihad•13 minutes ago
The erstwhile World Wide Wrestling Federation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWF_trademark_dispute
andsoitis•about 1 hour ago
> I've started a campaign to rename it something reasonable like "woo" or "woe", but neither Reuters nor the AP seem particularly interested.

I support your campaign. Other candidates: wa, weh, wu

MrBuddyCasino•about 1 hour ago
In German its „weh“. But then V is „phau“, so its not as easy to confuse as in English.
tgv•36 minutes ago
So why did I learn doppel Vau then? Has there been a change of heart?
andsoitis•about 1 hour ago
I know German.

In English, I don’t think vee and weh would be confused, but I’m partial to wa.

BoorishBears•about 1 hour ago
Why not simple, W: making a mouth shape as-if to say "What", then sharply exhale a puff of air instead
neuroelectron•about 2 hours ago
(U ω U)