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#jev#output#model#using#same#tokens#lines#more#prompt#question
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Discussion (63 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews
I've found that using structured outputs solves this problem much better. Instead of letting a model generate only "A", "B" or "C" and looking at the probs, have it directly generate "Legitimate", "Spam" or "Phishing" or any other pre-defined option from a set of multi-token sequences. Behind the scenes it boils down to something quite similar, but you're not running into the risk that the model actually wanted to say "A phishing attempt seems likely, so answer (C) is correct.", which would lead "A" to have the highest probability in the first token. You can even use a reasoning budget this way either via inherent reasoning or a free-form part preceding the remaining output structure. You can also have it assign probabilities (either in words or numbers) using more complex output structures, but I would not rely on them much more than the token logprobs (they can still be quite good though).
I got this technique to work extremely reliably last year. However there were a bunch of caveats: 1) Firstly, you must institute a check that the multiple choice tokens dominate the output distribution. They should sum to 95% or more, ideally 99%, or the LLM is not following instructions properly. This is also the problem with constrained decoding - if the LLM really doesn't want to output a valid answer, the one you extract will not be high quality. 2) You need to ask it multiple times, permuting which option corresponds to which letter, and average the results. LLMs are surprisingly biased towards picking "A", especially if they're otherwise not sure. 3) For the same reason, performance improves if you frame the prompt as if it were the middle of a quiz. "Question 1" carries baggage that "Question 12" doesn't. 4) You must be exceedingly careful with tokenization.
But when all was said and done, I got a general purpose A/B classifier that gave high resolution quantitative output for the cost of a couple dozen tokens ingested and a couple inference passes.
https://til.simonwillison.net/llms/llama-cpp-python-grammars
I ran some tests using GPT-4 to do some basic classification a couple years ago. On ambiguous options which had to be escalated to a human, the LLM would regularly output something like a 99.8% probability, compared to 99.99% for a correct answer.
0: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1706.04599
To completely squash the issue, a few cheap LoRa iterations will do the trick just fine.
I think we can all agree that Jev is not rocket science. It's a good idea executed well, with marketing that might have been a tad too bold
Actually to me it sounds it could be benchmarked if this kind of effect exists in the first place.
https://sgnt.ai/p/jev/
Another trick that works is to repeat the question two times: "I'm repeating the task and labels for clarity: ..."
But then at the end it says it’s parody. Maybe HN title should say it’s a joke.
Somehow the HN crowd has a bunch of "professionals" who don't care about error rates and think that a Qwen model running on a potato is frontier intelligence.
you can swith to a better model for lower error rate.
Ends with referring to a product, and saying "this is a parody post", after pretending to make a serious point.
While technically correct, it's not the same thing
If you're comparing with something, you need to state 'fast' in relative terms. Jev is definitely fast, and if this Python takes the same time to get a decision then it's also fast. If it's 100* slower than Jev though, you shouldn't be calling it 'fast', because relatively speaking it's really, really slow.
So, fast in the LLM space and comparable with Jev.
You can test Jev like model at 26B parameter count here (built few weeks ago): https://gambler-relay-us-west1.leo-fish.ts.net/demo (might not stay up for long)
Typesafe compatible API
This is just running on old hardware.
Speed and cost are obvious reasons, but isn’t this a tradeoff?
You have built something like jev but not jev (for starters, the output of what you've built will be absolutely worthless, the whole reason Jev is getting so much hype is because the output is good enough)
Running on old home hardware, Jev is probably running on a very powerful cluster.
How it's done: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49813610
Considering your own question length: ~120 characters x 45 divided by 4.1 ~= 1317 tokens.
So question processing at 5.5k PP(around the actual PP speed of GPT5.6 Sol) it would take around ~0.24 seconds + the context processing.
Computing the output should be around ~20ms (at 50 tok/s), computing 45 tokens in parallel.
> have 0% malformed output
Pretty trivial; only the allowed output is selectable :)
So, I keep repeating myself: Jev was a low-hanging fruit all along; no one cared, and probably no one will in a few weeks?
A Google AI prompt says
> TypeSafe AI's Master Customer Agreement explicitly prohibits using the services or model outputs to develop a competing product, perform model distillation, or reverse engineer the service, which generally restricts competitive benchmarking aimed at replicating the model.
It doesn't explicitly prohibit benchmarking by name, but the previous terms (which seem aimed at preventing Jev being used to increase the value of competitive products) does seem to lean that direction.
That said, MsSQL had terms which prevented publishing benchmarks which compared it against other SQL DBs and that wasn't enough to prevent some companies from using it.
Why anyone would want to work for a company who thought so little of their own product that it couldn't stand up to customers using it for normal business processes is beyond me.
Example why its legit:
I just invented a new "Regression Estimate Validator" aka Rev. It takes hundreds of input dimensions, then outputs an interpretable score. Its very fast and statistically robust. Response: Ok but you could just use `pytorch.nn.Linear(d_in, 1)`? True, it is equivalent, but that's concealing millions of lines of hand-tuned math libs, CUDA, python, and other stuff.
The fact that there are many lines of code underpinning the target functionality doesn't make it any harder to use, and doesn't increase the value of the sales pitch for the "new shiny thing" using those few lines of code.
However, I do sympathize with your frustration that people can just say "its 1 line of code" when that line is "invoke API" which is really millions of lines / databases, etc. as a way to dismiss legitimate work without understanding its implications.