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#state#california#https#budget#more#oregon#years#should#revenue#error

Discussion (75 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

codethiefabout 3 hours ago
Related: In the German state of Baden-Württemberg they were miscalculating the number of active teachers for 20 years due to a software error, causing the state to employ 1440 fewer teachers than actually intended.

https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/bildung/baden-wuerttemberg-s...

NewJazzabout 3 hours ago
How is that related? That's a long term calculation error vs short term forecasting error.
RobRiveraabout 2 hours ago
From my point of view, the Jedi are a state-funded militia coded as a tax exempt non profit!
sgcabout 3 hours ago
Given that school budgets are absolutely gutted with mass layoffs this year and next, and the miscalculation looks like 2/3 of the budget shortfall, hiding such a basic and impactful error requires a much better explanation than I see in that article. It looks like it was done to stifle debate about budget allocations, which would be necessary in the circumstances.
oatmeal1about 2 hours ago
The education system seems one of the only places where vastly improving technology over the past 30 years has not translated to cost savings or improved outcomes.
lostlogin24 minutes ago
It turns out that our kids learn better from humans than machines.

Ever dealt with a kid who has had too much screen time? It’s fucking awful.

apparent7 minutes ago
True, a kid who has had too much screen time is not good, just like a kid who has had too much lunch is not good. That doesn't make lunch bad, it just means the kid needs the right amount.

Screens can be helpful for kids (mine have learned a ton from Khan Academy and other online tools), but kids will have different thresholds. Some will only be able to learn a little from screens because they can't work independently. Others can learn a lot. Blanket statements like "kids lean better from humans than machines" are not helpful. They obscure the fact that there is typically one teacher for 25 kids, whereas there might be 25 screens. Even if a screen is only 1/10 as good as a teacher, it could be that learning from a screen is better than learning from a teacher (who is busy with your classmates almost all of the time).

My kid learned more math when she was doing AoPS for 2 yrs than when she was in class listening to lectures she already knew, followed by worksheets she had already mastered. Machines enable much more differentiation.

aaomidiabout 2 hours ago
Why would we expect schooling to get…cheaper?

The vast majority of the cost is hiring teachers. It should be staying in line with inflation or even increasing.

JumpCrisscrossabout 2 hours ago
> vast majority of the cost is hiring teachers

My 1,500-student public California high school currently lists 7 administration-team members (principal, executive assistant, three assistant principals, school-facilities manager and food-services manager) and 11 administrative-support members (school data-processing specialist, print-center technician, senior-clerical assistant, separate registrar and attendance roles, interventions-support specialist, and others). That doesn't include 4 site maintenance, a network-support and a separate network-systems specialists; a separate media-library specialist; 2 psychologists; a college and career advisor; 4 school counselors; a wellness-space support specialist; and a social science and an athletic director.

34 administrative hires. One per 44 students. Many of those roles strike me as fluff.

gruezabout 1 hour ago
>The vast majority of the cost is hiring teachers. It should be staying in line with inflation or even increasing.

Only if you assume if per-teacher productivity can't increase.

reassess_blindabout 2 hours ago
Not to mention there are more students.
legitster44 minutes ago
$2 billion dollars is a pretty small piece of the $90 billion the state pays towards schools.

The budget cuts are because enrollment is down.

dmitrygrabout 3 hours ago
thatfrenchguyabout 3 hours ago
Compared to cost of living though?
idiotsecantabout 3 hours ago
Your own link says CA spends less than UNESCO’s 15.0% standard.

Also, you could frame this in a much more information dense way by making an active claim about something instead of just spamming a bunch of links.

dmixabout 3 hours ago
A quick google search of the UNSECO target is "at least 15% of total public expenditure (or 4–6% of GDP)" and both the US (~5%) and California (~4-5% of gdp) already pass that criteria.
rayinerabout 2 hours ago
The UNESCO standard is meant for developing countries.

In 2021, California spent about $121 billion on K-12, out of a GDP of $3.4 trillion, or about 3.5% of state GDP. That puts it above the OECD average of 3.3%, around the same as France at 3.5%. blob:https://www.oecd.org/702dcc03-0749-41b6-af41-112fd1af1bfb. (This is the parent page: https://www.oecd.org/en/data/indicators/public-spending-on-e.... You have to select non-tertiary education, which is basically what we call K-12.)

sgcabout 2 hours ago
It is just a fact that California schools are laying off a large percentage of personnel and getting rid of many programs. Pink slips by the thousands have been sent out that will take effect in a couple months at the end of the school year. If you don't know that, you are not informed.

Those links are completely irrelevant because they are out of date. Budget had temporarily increased due to the availability of COVID funds, and now there is a very harsh snap in the other direction. Shortfalls are directly linked to actions by the Trump administration, and their downstream impacts. Every state needs to step up and deal with it.

Here is one example of how that is happening, it is a far more significant problem than just this: https://www.cde.ca.gov/nr/ne/yr25/yr25rel35.asp

apparent11 minutes ago
> "This isn’t a calculation error – it’s revision to better estimate how these payments are made," said H.D. Palmer, a spokesman for Newsom's Department of Finance.

Nice excuse. Reminds me of "it depends what the meaning of 'is' is".

pclowesabout 3 hours ago
This is wild. A mistake of this magnitude should result in several positions becoming vacant and many politicians being ineligible for any future offices.

If a government can’t budget accurately everything else they do is likely even less competent. Every number and statistic they report should be treated with suspicion. Without clear data who is to say they are doing anything helpful at all?

dlcarrierabout 2 hours ago
The errors were all within the CalPERS pension fund. The pensions are guaranteed by the state, so the fund is notorious for a complete lack of fiduciary duty, and these types of errors track with the general quality of their operation.
wahernabout 2 hours ago
Alternatively, since we're spit balling, the administrators and/or accounting staff decided to strategically error on the side of a shortfall because its politically impossible to get the state to fully fund the pension obligations or to stop effectively raiding it.
dlcarrierabout 1 hour ago
That's what California's Parks feistiest did, 15 years ago: https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/State-parks-director-res...
anon291about 2 hours ago
Recall that funds like this are one of the largest owners of the hedge funds that drive up property values for American homes via their reckless speculation. The state (well states really -- CA is not alone) desperately needs to make more than market returns to guarantee their unfunded pension liabilities.
nxobjectabout 3 hours ago
If you want a vivid illustration (from an adjacent state) about the impact of pessimistic fiscal projections: Oregon has an infamous "kicker" law that refunds income taxes collected in excess of projections (plus a 2% margin). The state faces the same budgetary challenges as California... but can't project too pessimistically lest it leave money off the table.
jaggederestabout 3 hours ago
Oregon's kicker law is a textbook example of bad economic policy, sadly. It essentially means that in boom years the state can't accumulate any general funds for recessions, which is half of the point of a state-level political entity in the first place. Balanced budgets and pay as you go are fabulous over the medium term, but over the short term of a year or two during a disaster or recession, governmental spending is critical as a counterbalance to reduced investment and general employment income.
jerlamabout 3 hours ago
California is also required to refund taxpayers if it accumulates too much revenue. The state's spending is capped at some limit set in 1979 with adjustments for inflation and population.

https://calbudgetcenter.org/resources/qa-why-hitting-gann-li...

tantalorabout 3 hours ago
Well maybe they should "project" a certain amount of revenue that goes to savings every year automatically, instead of waiting for a boom year windfall.
JumpCrisscrossabout 2 hours ago
> in boom years the state can't accumulate any general funds for recessions

Genuine question: have states had the discipline not to raid these coffers in the boom years?

The alternative is borrowing in downturns. That works because during recessions interest rates are low. The opposite problem then manifests, however, which is the state continuing to borrow through the recovery.

Maybe instead of citing shortfalls and surpluses, such laws should cite unemployment and income growth.

Supermanchoabout 2 hours ago
> Oregon's kicker law is a textbook example of bad economic policy, sadly

You must be talking about non-economic textbooks, otherwise this makes no sense.

lotsofpulpabout 2 hours ago
Oregon has a biennial budget, so some Oregon employee predicts how much money Oregon will earn over the next 2 to 3 years (which is basically impossible to do), and then Oregon leaders have to come up with a spending plan equal to or less than that revenue estimate.

However, Oregon's costs have no relation to the revenue that the state predicted it would get, so it is constrains the solution space when unforeseen costs or cost trends happen. For example, Oregon predicts a certain amount of revenue, but gets 3% more than the predicted revenue, but that is because prices for everything went up 3% more than expected, now Oregon has less money than it needs to pay its expenses (since it has to return any revenue which was 2% over the estimate).

Oregon is the only jurisdiction I have ever heard of with this kind of strict refund law, and its rigidity seems to be the main issue, along with the 2 year forecast requirement (since forecasting even 1 year is hard enough).

hedgehogabout 3 hours ago
The article doesn't really explain the overall budget, for scale it looks like in the 2025-2026 budget year CA planned to spend about $228B compared to $216B revenue ($227B in the previous year).

https://ebudget.ca.gov/2025-26/pdf/Enacted/BudgetSummary/Sum...

legitsterabout 1 hour ago
Correction: This is a correction to the forecast - not the budget.

By the state's own admission, there could be as much as an $18 billion dollar budget deficit if the state economy fails to grow as projected. It could also be a smaller shortfall if the economy is even better than expected.

Miscalculations are pretty common and this is why they are revised several times a year.

jjthebluntabout 2 hours ago
"Gov. Newsom in January projected the state would have to grapple with a $2.9 billion shortfall. The confirmed miscalculation means that shortfall could be much smaller."

So, the title is just plain misleading.

California is less in deficit than they earlier calculated.

IvyMikeabout 3 hours ago
tyreabout 3 hours ago
A little “bank error in your favor” sitchu. We love to see it.
snickerbockersabout 3 hours ago
"See what?" --Gavin
seifertericabout 3 hours ago
Didn't something like this just happen last year (or year before) but in the opposite direction?
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dogscatstreesabout 2 hours ago
They should have used Claude Code for Excel.
cdrnsfabout 3 hours ago
Oops! They're still far easier to deal with than any federal agency.
tonymetabout 2 hours ago
it’s less than 1% of the budget, and the state keeps overspending. Don’t get too optimistic
whalesaladabout 3 hours ago
2 billion surplus? that's good for about 150 linear feet of high speed rail track in the middle of Salinas.
boznzabout 3 hours ago
Another indicator that the administration hasn't got a fucking clue what or where their (your) money goes.
testfoobarabout 3 hours ago
Give it back?
SilentM68about 1 hour ago
My Opinion:

Anyone who thinks this is a glitch in the system, or an honest mistake, should shift their mindset and start thinking more like a detective and less like a politician.

California has been steadily declining for years, now. Waste, mismanagement, fraud are commonplace. This needs to be investigated by impartial third parties that can't be bought and paid for whose commitment must be verified via polygraph. Those that are found guilty need to be prosecuted and jailed.

Being that this is California, what will end up happening is that the politicians will end up investigating themselves and miraculously be found not liable.

******

Unbiased-AI Deep Dive:

https://archive.ph/jdyO4

mlmonkeyabout 2 hours ago
> California's legislative leaders have known for months but did not make the issue public.

Why would they give up a chance to make more money from the people? The government never misses an opportunity to pad its coffers. Reminds me of the CA State Parks department, which squirreled away millions of dollars and then was crying about lack of funding and hence wanted to shut down some parks.

xp84about 2 hours ago
Fun fact: I recently vacationed in Hawaii and couldn’t help but notice, despite groceries costing about 2x, gas there is a dollar cheaper than at home in California. California just can’t get enough tax money.
verteuabout 1 hour ago
The best comparison is probably "overall tax burden": https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/tax-burden-by-state...

When you include all taxes (eg property tax), there's surprisingly little variation between states: For example, TX is 6th-lowest at 8.6% of income, while CA is 46th-lowest at 13.5% of income. Hawaii is 48th-lowest at 14.1%

reducesufferingabout 1 hour ago
Not really a fact, more of a bad anecdote. Currently HI gas is just $0.17 cheaper than CA, and I see many CA gas stations at $5.09, just like HI. A decent chunk of that comes from strict CA low pollution refining, you know, to help you breath better...

https://gasprices.aaa.com/state-gas-price-averages/