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Discussion (75 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

arjieabout 21 hours ago
Realistically, non-profit hospitals aren't non-profit because they are altruistic in some sense. It's because that is a tax-efficient structure for them. Given that, the participants in the structure must have a mechanism to extract money from the machine. It's a bit of a cynical view, but I believe many non-profits are organized in this fashion and their vendor contracts are the mechanism of value extraction.

Besides the big tax advantages for the business, there are programs like the 340B Drug Pricing Program - that allow non-profit hospitals to acquire drugs at much lower cost which they can then sell to patients at normal cost. Tools like this make it useful for non-profit hospitals to acquire for-profit hospitals and effectively instantly tune up their margins, which they in fact do.

That makes this just a business operating using a tax-advantaged method, somewhat like Ikea. I think the confusion occurs when people assume 'non-profit' is a public charity that gives away money. In practice, it's just a business structure with certain advantages and constraints.

digdugdirkabout 11 hours ago
Wait... How does Ikea operate using a tax advantaged method?
GauntletWizardabout 3 hours ago
Complicated legal structures, and favorable treatment by a government who uses it as a form of cultural diplomacy. The tldr is that there's a nonprofit that owns the company that operates as Ikea, while there's some concessions made to a for-profit that owns the IKEA branding.

https://www.europeanceo.com/business-and-management/ikea-com...

insane_dreamerabout 12 hours ago
> Realistically, non-profit hospitals aren't non-profit because they are altruistic in some sense. It's because that is a tax-efficient structure for them.

I disagree. There may be some exceptions, but generally non-profit hospitals were not set up as for-profit companies because the primary purpose of a for-profit company is to generate value for its shareholders. Not having shareholders, who if large enough have considerable power over you, removes a very large and perverse incentive to put profits over the public the hospital is serving. Instead the profits generated (and non-profits can turn a profit of course) must be re-invested into the business as retained earnings, thus benefitting the public.

IMO, for-profit hospitals should not exist for the same reason that for-profit prisons should not exist.

keyboredabout 20 hours ago
Assuming that non-profits are altruistic seems fallacious. Granted, I don’t know why they are assumed to be by some; it’s just presented as such because it seems obvious, no arguments need to be given.

It’s clearly fallacious to assume that non-profit is altruistic just because, I don’t know, for-profit is assumed as a premise to be about egotistical money hoarding.

auggieroseabout 18 hours ago
I think the assumption about non-profits being altruistic is a reasonable one, because what would otherwise be the justification for giving them tax breaks?

If the reality is different, then maybe there shouldn't be non-profits anymore. In the UK for example, there are no non-profits, there are only charities. And clearly, the expectation of altruism is explicit here.

aesh2Xa1about 15 hours ago
I think your position seems reasonable, too. Though intuitive, it isn't the reality.

The tax-exempt status is granted for Exempt Purposes, but not as a matter of altruistic intention: https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organiz...

For example, ask your favorite LLM search engine: Can you list non-profits/501(c)(3) that are US defense contractors?

Draper Laboratory and Energetics Technology Center are registered 501(c)(3) corporations. Their primary output is weapons research. RAND Corp, whose name you'd likely recognize, is also a DoD contractor and 501(c)(3).

The NRA Foundation and the Heritage Foundation are also registered as 501(c)(3).

keyboredabout 18 hours ago
Do for-profits become altruistic when corporations get tax breaks? Edit: I’m replying to the “reasonable one” point.
skippyboxedheroabout 17 hours ago
There are non-profits in the UK. Some of these structures are over 100 years old at this point.

Expectations are completely irrelevant. Charities steal, in the UK the largest charities are essentially run as private companies except the shareholders are employees. Same thing with government, there was a unit of the government that spun out to a "non-profit" structure, some of the civil servants ended up becoming shareholders, and they now lobby their friends in the civil service to use their services...afaik, the government is still their only major customer and they were at, for example, all the pandemic meetings. Just generally, the UK has a vast network of these organizations that have a significant role in government policy but are totally outside the government (this is also true, actually even more so, in devolved countries...to a large extent, government policy there is formed by unelected private institutions).

There are no real rules here beyond humans act self-interestedly. No structure will contain this. This happens in for-profit companies with shareholders too. Principal-agent problem.

giaourabout 15 hours ago
By statute, an organization can only exist as a non-profit in the US if it is "organized and operated exclusively for exempt purposes"[0], and non-profit hospitals specifically must operate for charitable purposes.

It may not be wise to assume non-profits exist within the confines of the law that authorizes their continued existence, but I don't see how it's fallacious.

[0]: https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organiz...

Eddy_Viscosity2about 15 hours ago
The concept of having a 'non-profit' tax category was explicitly to allow for (and even encourage the creation of) altruistic endeavors. That's why we have them. I do believe the original motivations for the non-profit category were sincere in this regard.

However once such a tax category was created, there was really nothing to stop the sociopathic MBA class from using them as just another optimization tool in their tax-minimization arsenal. Another example is non-profit schools where the property is owned by the founders and they charge hugely non-market rents to personally extract revenue from the non-profit.

So in current days we have both genuine altruistic endeavors (they still exist) and the predatory ones abusing the system.

hahajk1 day ago
"Hospitals navigating challenging financial and regulatory landscapes may call on these specialists for advice on strategic planning, cost-cutting, reorganizations, or revenue-boosting initiatives."

I think it's been stated in this thread, and I learned it reading the comments on HN, but consultants are not hired to optimize processes but instead to provide decision insurance. If you take a big risk by yourself and it goes poorly, your job and reputation are on the line. If you hire a consulting firm that advises you take the risk, and report that the risk is properly characterized and understood, and then it goes wrong - well sometimes the best laid plans fall victim to circumstance.

Spooky23about 24 hours ago
That’s really only a rather small part of the picture.

Hospitals are opex constrained for things that don’t generate revenue. The operations run lean and are focused on operating. There’s no bench in finance or IT or whatever to figure stuff out. Enter the consultant.

Consulting is often tied to capital spend and most importantly they go away when the job is done.

Avicebron1 day ago
Which immediately begs the question, how do you become one of these faceless people waving vaguely in the air saying "fire a whole lot of people, that should mean you spend less right?"

I submit my thesis. The PE/consultant class. A crust of slime buoyed about on the waves of capital to provide cover for the horrors underneath.

pocksuppet1 day ago
I think you can only get in this position if you're already playing golf with enough CEOs. Over golf the CEO casually mentions he wants to fire 30% of the workforce but he doesn't want the flak. Then you suggest you could write a consulting report on it.
gofreddygoabout 21 hours ago
Consultant... Hmm Reminds me of Barney's P.L.E.A.S.E.[1] acronym for Provide Legal Exculpation And Sign Everything.

1: https://youtu.be/ZfWVV533RHE

dyauspitr1 day ago
That’s not the only reason the other reason is these processes and ways of doing things are so bureaucratic and hard to navigate that you actually do need very specialized information from consultants that it’s not easy to come by
rnxrx1 day ago
Not to be glib, but is there any industry where management consultants have been shown to make a statistically significant difference either way?
protocolture1 day ago
My dad ran a crisis management consultancy for years. I just googled a few of his clients and they all survived the process. He would come in, assist with minor layoffs, repair business processes, usually get some software installed/updated back when that was a huge multiplier to a business and then leave when everything was running smooth.

I also am aware of a situation where a pair of business consultants who were meant to be assisting with a software project were diverted (at full rate 1200/day) to assisting with redecorating an office.

I was directly involved, oppositionally, to a pair of business analyst consultants who tried to get a customer of mine to change their (admittedly terrible) vendor selection by repeating security concerns over and over again in the meeting. They never actually got to the point of analysing said terrible vendors terrible integration practices or costing up a migration path. They just banged on about security and contacted us separately after the meeting asking for more details about the security situation.

Basically you get out of it, what you want to get out of it. It depends on the consultant, their education, and the terms of their engagement. I don't know if statistics would be useful in this scenario or how you would control for wildly different outcomes.

John238321 day ago
The management consulting industry wouldn’t work without them.
Cookingboy1 day ago
I mean does it work? Other than profit making for the consulting companies?

Like someone else pointed out, if people are hiring them in order to provide cover for decision making, then maybe the whole thing being a charade is the point.

stouset1 day ago
You missed the joke.
GuestFAUniverseabout 20 hours ago
Statistically relevant: yes. In a positive way: no.

Well, McKinsey still existing? Too much influence. Otherwise they would have gone like so many other consulting companies.

https://www.trtworld.com/article/12748537

JTbane1 day ago
In, fire 30% of the workforce, new logo, out.

You are now a fully trained management consultant. (Alan Johnson, Peep Show)

dgellowabout 17 hours ago
In the good old time you at least had to spend some time coming up with the inspirational slide deck to explain the meaning of the new logo! Now even that part has been automated :(
dganabout 20 hours ago
TIL gnome-lib has a meaning outside of programming
nitwit0051 day ago
Good to know I'm qualified. I am confident I can make no measurable difference.
coffeefirst1 day ago
In fact, I’m prepared to make no difference 80% faster and 50% cheaper.
shermantanktop1 day ago
If we’re bidding on this job, I can make no difference in zero time for one penny. I will want a minimum of one second of employment though, gotta pay those bills.
cameron_b1 day ago
One contributing factor I experience is that keeping competent, opinionated, leadership who are a good fit is an expensive proposition, and the "hold fast" position will always be challenged by whatever board is scrutinizing the budget/plan/forecast. The only play where no top brass has to catch a parachute is to bring in a consultant to scrutinize the business, read the crystal ball, and pitch a plan to weather the coming storm. Medicare funds are dust in the wind, Covid-era opportunities are dead and over, and the big axe has swung so much it needs sharpening. None of these are easy decisions to make and the result of "we're still doing what we're doing" is success.
hatthew1 day ago
Can't access the paper, but I'm curious how they measured statistical significance. I wonder how much to interpret the result as "we didn't measure any effect" (which is a largely meaningless conclusion) versus "no effect exists." The latter wouldn't be a rigorous statement, but it seems to be the conclusion we are being led towards.
bawanaabout 16 hours ago
The whole premise of 'for-profit' healthcare stinks to high heaven. Regardless of hospitals calling themselves 'non-profit', they behave like profit seeking enterprises. This is the ultimate corporate double speak.

The bottom line is that - people do not get to choose their illness. So a capitalist model in Adam Smith's sense where people get to 'choose' their 'insurance' based on price and benefit is an illusion. It would be like having identical futures contracts on a commodity from different brokers with the only difference being the commission structure. The underlying product is the same and in fact regulated by law.

Legally, are non profits allowed to do mergers and acquisitions ?The hospitals are becoming monolithic monopolies.

boxedabout 15 hours ago
There's a third option though: the state is the customer, not the individual. Then private healthcare can work. Insurance companies sort of try to emulate that, but it doesn't really work.
akramachamareiabout 12 hours ago
What do you mean by the state is the customer? As in they act as a buyer of healthcare for taxpayers? Why would we expect that to be better?
boxedabout 10 hours ago
Yea. I expect it to be better because we have this in Sweden and it's vastly better than the US' system :P But there are many other things that are different of course, so hard to know which is which.
jimjonescoolaid1 day ago
False. Consultants made billions of dollars. This is a massive win for the consulting industry.
KLK2019about 24 hours ago
I did a brief review of the publication. I do think its hard to isolate consulting engagement with broad measures on financial performance, and claims based patient outcomes.

With that being said, consultants have no skin in the game, and thier incentives are aligned more towards executive relationship management and seeking out new opportunities for revenue vs. achieving aspirational metrics that ultimately matter to a health system.

I work in medtech and a model that I am more hopeful for is attaching consulting servics with capital purchaes. (e.g. siemans, GE). This model puts skin in the game from the manufacturer as outcomes and ultimately future revenue is tied to being able to show improvement on key clinical, financial, and operational metrics.

Curious to see if this study design can be applied under this scenario (search for press releases regarding signed partnerhsips with medtech and examine a narrower set of outcomes identified in those press releases).

mchusmaabout 24 hours ago
My father used to say "Nonprofit doesn't mean that nobody can make a profit". Seems applicable here.
SoftTalkerabout 23 hours ago
Mine had a slight variation, "Nonprofit doesn't mean that nobody can make money".
boznz1 day ago
There is a very clear effect, the bureaucrats can distance themselves from any unpopular policies or decisions and blame the consultants.
oklahomasports1 day ago
tedious cliche. these types of consultants arent advising on high level f500 decisions.
toast01 day ago
What do management consultants do?

Afaik, their job is to give management the cover managment thinks it needs to do the things it wants to do or thinks it needs to do.

The article claims the study says the billions spent on management consultants didn't move any metrics significantly, other than a small negative change for stroke readmissions.

dgellowabout 17 hours ago
I guess AI agents are the new consultants?
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motbus3about 14 hours ago
This is anecdotic but I already worked on a company who fired staff to hire "specialized" consultants who were cheaper and more specialized, only to see their former members to join as consultants. After years of this practice they also concluded there was no saving nor benefit on the strategy but couldn't rehire the people
chmod7751 day ago
They're just part of the machinery for extracting money from these "nonprofits". Take a closer look at anything these paragons of virtue spend money on, and you'll find rot in every last minute detail of their day-to-day operations.
KumaBear1 day ago
Like many VC’s that extract wealth from companies to enrich themselves.
ninalanyonabout 19 hours ago
That's surely the expected behaviour. Why would a VC provide money if not to get a return?
layoric1 day ago
Most of the hospital consultancy firms tied to nonprofit hospital management/board for 500 Alex.
diogenescynicabout 23 hours ago
I have never seen them consultants that provide a value commensurate with the prices they charge. They seem more like a proxy for fraud. When I worked at PayPal, there was a director who had an army of Deloitte consultants who just so happened to be from her husband's team at Deloitte. It was a clear conflict of interest and even though execs were aware, nothing was ever done. I imagine that's going on all over the place.
chasd00about 17 hours ago
A friend of mine worked in one of the consulting practices at IBM. One of the silverbacks there had their own shadow consulting firm complete with offshore resources operating within IBM and their clients. I thought that was particularly brazen/clever.
SoftTalkerabout 23 hours ago
Yep, "follow the money" often explains a lot of things that appear to be bizarre or irrational at first glance.
thefzabout 21 hours ago
"nonprofit hospitals", let it sink in.
Ekarosabout 21 hours ago
I take here "nonprofit" means same as it does with religions.
thefzabout 18 hours ago
Why should there be any profit in healthcare.
Jenssonabout 17 hours ago
Why should it be illegal to help people for profit? That is what doctors do, they profit a lot when they help people, they could live on much smaller salaries than they currently have but of course market economics makes it so we want to pay doctors higher salaries than they really need.
boxedabout 15 hours ago
Why should someone sell food for a profit? We literally DIE within DAYS of we can't get food!

You see the issue here right?

Now.. who pays is the question. Imo it must be the state, because otherwise there are too many perverse incentives.

snapetom1 day ago
Don't care. I'm going to name and shame. I worked at Seattle Children's Hospital in tech for a short time. The insane amount of self congratulatory back patting to mask incompetence and tolerance of mediocrity wasted billions that could have gone to patient care. What I witnessed there was damn near criminal.
FireBeyondabout 22 hours ago
Maybe they could run a fundraiser in Laurelhurst for some of that money. Anything to keep the residents distracted from spending money on business FlightAware subscriptions and fighting the DOH to try to get medical records to "show" that the three airlift helicopters a week that land at SCH are in violation of their community council noise ordinance because they weren't truly "life threatening emergencies" and thus should have landed at UW or Harborview and been ground ferried from there to Children's.

Apparently the only helicopter noise some residents like is the sound of their own, ferrying them to BFI so they can go to Aspen for the weekend.

micromacrofootabout 15 hours ago
This feels like the result of consultancy more often than not

My own employer has been burnt by consultants essentially moving the deck chairs around to the tune of $800 an hour

I suspect if someone internally made the same suggestions they'd be shot down, but only because they didn't cost so much

wittjeffabout 19 hours ago
The existence of non-profits, and the possibility that they might be net-beneficial to society, is counter to the dominant religion of the day. Profit motive = good, other motive = bad. Welcome to UChicago.
laughing_man1 day ago
There's no such thing as a nonprofit. It's really just a question of whether or not the money goes to the shareholders or the management.