Deno 2.8
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#deno#node#bun#npm#package#doesn#typescript#lot#more#don
Discussion (83 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews
I'm not deep in the webdev / node / Bun ecosystems, I've just been a happy user of Deno for small services for several years. Can someone explain why it sounds like there's such rapid growth of Bun? Is it just being used as a bundler, but not as JS runtime?
Just the permission system alone (though I wish it extended to modules) is so compelling with Deno that I'm perplexed at why someone would transition from node to bun and not node to Deno.
In my case, when I start a little Typescript side project, instead of drowning in the sea of npm/yarn/berry/pnpm/bubble/vite/webpack/rollup/rolldown/rollout/swc/esbuild/teatime/etc I can just use one thing. And yes, only some of those are Pokémon moves and not actual tools from the JS/TS ecosystem.
if the numbers look good, I pick it up -- though whether the numbers actually hold in reality is... well something I should check... but won't due to laziness...
I should check actual perf numbers... well next week or month?
A lot of dependencies and frameworks simply did not work with Deno for a long time. In the beginning it didn't even have the ability to install dependencies from npm. (In hindsight with all the npm supply chain attacks Ryan was probably right about all of these things).
So Bun was a better Node with a lot of very nice quality of life features that just worked and it required much less configuration.
I think the Deno team kind of realized they needed to have compatibility with Node to succeed and that has been their focus for the past couple years.
Edit: And Deno is now more compatible with node than bun.
"Probably"? Are you saying there's a chance he wasn't right?
I really think Ryan deserves a lot more credit than a "probably". He put in a lot of effort to do the right thing and improve the security of the entire ecosystem he created.
Nice to see Deno being maintained. The features listed seem pretty substantial.
Seriously, they're both Rust now. They share goals.
and yet Bun's npm compat is much much lower than deno
https://x.com/rough__sea/status/2057579066744881188
This is an annoying to do for exactly two platforms: node.js, and deno.
node.js bcs it requires a workaround whenever something networking comes in: fetch doesn't work the same. So you structure you're code around having a node.js workaround. Same story for some other APIs. But you can test if itn works!
Deno is more annoying, you just can't test your package with deno before publishing. Before we released to npm, we installed a tar file and sent those around for testing. Works in node, in vite (node, for browser), works in bun, like a charm. Doesn't work with deno unless you switch to package.json, and you use exactly the subset of the spec that deno supports. You can't "deno install xyz.tar", you have to use npm for that (inserts a single line into package.json), THEN you can use deno to execute. No docs, no hint, just trial & error.
Even more annoyingly, npm & bun both offer 'link': in package repo, call npm/bun link, in the test repo do npm/bun link @yourpackage, and that's it, it's installed. Creates a dyn link to the source's build dir so you can rebuild without packing or sending tars or anything like that, you just build in your package dir and the test project is immediately updated.
Deno doesn't have that. What's worse, they don't tell you they don't have that. Also basically no error messages. It just fails in weird ways. Spent hours trying to do it. Now I just publish without testing for deno and wait for bug reports.
So out of the three: bun just works. That's it. Better than any platform. It just works, and it has a nicer CLI & nicer error messages, and it's faster on startup. It has the web api and the node api (i think) and its own api that's very nice as well, nicer than e.g. node. And e.g. if you run bun link, it tells you exactly what happened: this is what just happened, this is what you have to do to use it elsewhere. Node doesn't have that!
I think deno recognized bun's strategy of using npm dev's backbone as being the better call - that's why they're now slowly introducing node.js features, even though that goes against their original USP.
Bun 1.3.14 is at just 40.6% with same compliance test.
https://node-test-viewer.deno.dev/
So, I switched to Bun and things have been much smoother!
me for example only use nodejs or bun to run a basic sveltekit server, so it can render the html for the first time. all core functionalities are delegated to backend services written in crystal or rust. I don't need some bloated js runtime that hoard 500MB of ram for that purpose (crystal services only take 20+ MB each).
bun promised a lean runtime, every essential functionality is written in zig to increase the speed and memory footprint. and javascriptcore also uses less memory compare to v8. the only thing we expect is for bun to stabilize and can run 24/7 without memory leaking or crashing.
too bad it is a failed promise now.
By then bun was already a thing and just ate into its share.
My point was at the time when deno came out it was completely different to node with its imports and that meant a lot of existing packages just didn’t work out of the box. That just slowed its traction.
Personally I would have like deno it stick with url imports and not added the npm support.
Ryan set out to “fix” his mistakes with node only to fully embrace them again.
(It seems too bad ChakraCore is mostly out to pasture and not keeping up with TC-39 and that there's still no good Node-compatible wrapper for SpiderMonkey, but having one for JavaScriptCore is still a breath of fresh air.)
But Deno's got Node compatibility now, and Node has adopted a lot of the features that make Deno and Bun so usable. So I'm not sure the choice matters so much these days.
Node's the stable solution and will be with us forever. You can now use TypeScript with it and, soon enough, you'll be able to build your app to a single executable -- including native deps.
Bun's chaotic but, nonetheless, it's _fast_ and it's taking an interesting approach by including everything in the stdlib. Plus, bought by Anthropic.
Deno had an awesome story with the sandbox and ease of import for third-party dependencies. Sandboxes feel pretty commoditized now and I'm not sure the import mechanism ended up being that much nicer than a `npm add`.
Who thinks this is a positive?!
Also “no human wrote any of this code” is not my personal benchmark for a reliable dependency.
I don't think this logically follows. That is, yes being acquired makes one less likely to run out of money, but doesn't necessarily make something safer as a dependency.
Plenty of open source projects have little to no funding and continue on for years with no problems. But being acquired suddenly creates a requirement of return-on-investment. A corporation will happily shut the whole thing down if and when it's decided that they're just not gaining enough value from it.
(There's also the general fact that, a corporate-acquired project is going to first and forement serve the needs of the corporation vs. the community at large - if your use case or edge case doesn't align with the needs of Anthropic then you should probably not hold your breath waiting for the Bun project to address it.)
The recent 1 million line vibe coded PR suggests it is not so reliable as a dependency.
(still reserving judgement on Bun, though — I mean, we'll soon see, one way or the other!)
Wouldn't node be the safest bet as a dependency?
Whoa, did not know that. That's a killer feature!
For those using Node.js, a similar single command is available with https://www.npmjs.com/package/ts-node-pack
Now that Node.js supports importing .ts modules, more repos can use them without a build step or putting any build artifacts in the checkout.
Though I'm also happy that JSR exists as that (mostly) cleaner ecosystem.
https://www.devtoolreviews.com/reviews/bun-vs-node-vs-deno-2...
Similarly, it seems, though they didnt exactly say, that they're running bun with a warm package cache... What about the others? Do they have caches?
As someone who has optimized by reducing/batching heap allocations, 2x seems within the realm of possibility, depending on the exact circumstances.
That being said, iirc, node also has more hooks for things like observability than bun does, which might hurt it here
And reading the features, I'm impressed! - I spot many commands & features that map to my workflow.
Well done Deno team.
If you're using node directly, please stop. At a minimum use Bun.
With agentic work, there is little reason to use anything besides Rust and Typescript in any case. Room to disagree but type safety, memory safety, and a large corpus of work is critical. Agents need difficult errors and baked in patterns they navigate it easily. For UI, Typescript makes the most sense just because of the mass of design examples.
> The release post for v2.8 is not yet published.
> Check GitHub releases page for the latest release status of Deno.
The release is here: https://github.com/denoland/deno/releases/tag/v2.8.0
EDIT: Formatting
https://github.com/tc39/proposal-type-annotations
Python supports types and is interpreted, right?
There was a proposal to support TypeScript syntax, but ignore the actual types (this is basically how Python works). That would be kind of nice because you can skip the compilation step completely (less faff for small projects), but I don't think it went anywhere... or if it is it's getting there at a snail's pace:
https://github.com/tc39/proposal-type-annotations
This is an interesting development. npm after all is the de-facto ecosystem and leaning into it makes sense.
I'm wondering how Deno would've been received if it supported npm and package.json from day 1.
I would not say npm was the right direction. I actually was a fan of JSR (didn't work on it but all my experience with it was great)
No way it would go through standard build pipelines, or team skills.