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Credit Card in Europe is very much associated with Debt.
Ireland and the U.K. seem much more credit-card oriented than rest of Europe. Turkey is also very CC oriented (kinda strange - was not expecting that).
Yes, a thing associated with debt.
I lived in the UK before Brexit, and that would be an example of such.
Americans use credit cards and rarely debit cards because here the terms on debit cards are so much worse (for contesting charges, etc), so debit cards never really caught on for anything more than withdrawing cash.
In the US, users of debit cards are assumed to be uncreditworthy, because debit cards in the US have such bad T&C's that poor credit score is the main reason folks use them here.
The main difference between credit cards in Europe and in the US is that poor people can't get them here.
Some places already of course not accepting Amex, some places not accepting Visa Infinites (CSR, Venture, etc).
The future of banking is direct. The days of free rewards at a loss are gone as premium US cards are nearing the $1,000 AF mark for luxury coupons.
Is the buzzword just flying over my head?
Indian UPI gets mentioned a lot, but when Visa, Mastercard didn't agree with data sovereignty rules among other rules, India quickly developed RuPay [0]. Now most debit cards in India are RuPay. CCs stand at 18% share.
They also integrate seamlessly to UPI.
Why doesn’t the EU consider something like that? They want to jump direct to digital currencies? Is that it? Something else?
[0]: Data rules came in 2017/18, RuPay was developed in 2012 iirc. But it got unprecedented push after the rule.
Some merchants disable RuPay CC payments even when they don't get charged merchant fees till the payment crosses the INR 2K threshold.
Strangest thing is when I can pay the guy pushing a handcart around selling vegetables using a RuPay CC while a medical store refuses to accept it.
RuPay is.
You get a physical cc/dc with RuPay as provider instead of MC/Visa.
If I am not missing something, Wero is not that.
That is what I wanted to know: why not a traditional, homegrown card that is a direct 1-to-1 alternative of MC/Visa cards? Does that not make sense for the EU now? Why?
Because the European market is fragmented. France, Italy, Germany, etc all have some sort of established localized payment system and in some states like Ireland and the Netherlands are entirely dependent on Visa.
There is no "pan-European" bank and individual states still care about their sovereignity. France will continue to back and support BNP and Credit Agricole against Germany's Deutsche Bank (and vice versa). The only solution at that point is to just bypass the whole problem and just go directly with mobile payments.
Additionally, China, India, and Brazil began building their DPD stack in the 2000s but European states didn't start until the last 2-3 years.
Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48207004 - May 2026 (777 comments)
Wero – Digital payment wallet, made in Europe - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47038965 - February 2026 (132 comments)
Europe's Banks Launch Wero Payments to Dislodge Visa, Mastercard - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41666833 - September 2024 (88 comments)
Unofficial Wero Adoption Tracker - https://www.werotracker.eu/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area
RuPay is just like Visa/Mastercard in the sense you get physical cards that you can use at ATMs, use at ecomm sites, etc.
Wero doesn’t seem to be that. Am I missing something? Does making a new direct alternative to Visa/MC doesn’t make sense for the EU? If so, why?
If you're building out a brand new system, why not make use of the computing device with input/output capabilities (that can be used to confirm amount, payee etc.) almost everybody already has in their pocket/purse anyway and instead rely on merchants being honest and only taking what they're owed out of your account without your confirmation?
Of course physical cards will also play some role in any future EU payment system, if for nothing other than resiliency (a card works without any battery and is cheap to keep in a drawer or suitcase as a backup for a stolen phone) and sovereignty (note who makes most phones' operating systems and runs their attestation providers).
> Wero doesn’t seem to be that. Am I missing something? Does making a new direct alternative to Visa/MC doesn’t make sense for the EU? If so, why?
To avoid US government control of your payments and US corporate payment processor extraction of value via your payment flows. How do you avoid someone else controlling your infra? You instantiate, operate, and maintain your own infra. Brazil runs their instant payment system Pix for ~$10M/year, for example. The cost is very reasonable to do so.
[1] https://old.reddit.com/r/AskAChinese/comments/1qgq6ya/why_di...
[2] https://www.brookings.edu/articles/chinas-digital-payments-r...
[3] https://easebuzz.in/explainers/upi/upi-qr-code/
[4] https://dev.to/woovi/how-does-pix-qrcode-work-5e3k
[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMV
[6] https://www.w3.org/2020/Talks/emvco-qr-20201021.pdf
UPI still connects with bank accounts.
My question was about something else: why EU doesn’t try and develop a homegrown card provider? It would provide exactly what MC/Visa does. Are we beyond that point in terms of technological advancement? Some other reason?
I use credit cards as a proxy for my bank accounts. I know that my issuing bank will protect me from all fraud so I don't have to worry about losing money if I buy something from a fraudulent merchant. I also know I can do things like chargebacks if I have to.
None of this is addressed by digital currency, it's basically like using cash which is haphazard today when there are so many scams everywhere around the world.
I do have to say though, that with customer protection laws we have it has never happened to hear about a friend getting a charge back from the bank, usually you go to the seller first (or the platform if you got scammed) and you get refunded there
I have some Irish friends. And Ireland seems similar to the US when it comes to credit card usage (vs debit). I assume that is because Ireland is heavily influenced by US and UK banking habits. On other hand, Germans only use debit cards.
In the US you'll almost always get your money back if someone defrauds your debit card but you could be in for a painful time if you depend on the money in that checking account until it gets fixed.
I haven't ever seen illegitimate direct debit. I guess you need to have an actual business to issue direct debit orders and bank will show you the door and freeze your money if you start doing funny things. I guess.
Probably the dreadful R word has something to do with it, go figure.
On cards we also have limits and the only time I saw something happening was after being unfortunate enough to pass through ~~the ghet~~ the glorious capital of our continental Empire, majestic city of Brussels. That time the bank tried their best to call me.
These reduce the level of fraud, and the banks cover the rest.
The basic stuff (online shop not delivering, going bankrupt etc) are covered for debit cards in a similar way as credit cards in other countries.
I've never had a fraudulent transaction myself, and it's over 20 years since I first had a debit card — with a chip and PIN.
Chargeback always seemed strange to me and never needed it. Fraud should be reported and handled at the root, not by making digital transfers into some magic disappearing money.
But I did have someone fraudulently making direct debit transfers from my bank account. My bank cleaned that up within three business days
It's not much of an issue within the EU area. The banks tend to offer insurance products for people who want to cover that risk.
Single account sounds more like a boomer thing.
Credit cards being more consumer friendly than bank transfers is usually an artifact of the concrete implementation, not the abstract concept. In many EU/SEPA countries, returning a direct debit is much easier than a chargeback in the US, for example. In some countries, people even consider credit cards as less secure because filing a chargeback takes marginally longer with most banks (and requires a letter as opposed to a single click in online banking).
If the digital euro is to succeed, it'll of course have to compete with cards on the usability side as well.
I'm with you. While I'm no fan of the risk involved with missing a CC payment, there's a mountain of difference between credit and debit when it comes to fraud. It's literally you trying to get your money back (debit) versus some giant corporation trying to get _its_ money back (credit).
Somebody somehow stole my card credentials (online i think) and managed to get money out of my debit account through some obscure way without 2FA. The money disappeared but transactions showed up as “uncleared” and after few days i had money back. My bank said that i have to wait for the transactions to clear before they can start the transaction dispute because now it's in network hands.
People with stable jobs and good credit qualify for no-fee credit cards with rewards / cashback. As a consumer you benefit financially from having a credit card. Those elsewhere in the thread worried about "debt" - you just set to auto-withdrawl the entire balance of the card every month from your bank account. Now you have free money. I can't think of a reason not to take advantage of this system in some way.
But people with unstable jobs and poor credit help subsidize these "higher-end" credit cards when they pay high interest rates on their because they missed payments or hold a balance over multiple months. For those people credit cards could help with monthly cashflow issues but are essentially a scam and not much better than payday loans.
Yet another system that American consumers are kind of forced to participate in that's a sort of tragedy of the commons (high-reward cards wouldn't exist without the exploitation of other people not savvy enough to avoid high interest and fees)
Exactly, it is just their latest marketing move to have people accept it.
I was in a meeting at the ECB 6 years ago, the digital euro was high priority and we were supposed to see the first pilot 5 years ago.
The project is actually older and I saw schematic of the system and screenshot and the management interface 6 years ago. It was developed by a German company.
I am not sure why we are not using it right now... it can either be:
- the urgency, like upcoming financial collapse, disappeared,
- the bank lobbied so hard they killed the previous design,
- the EU is just insanely incompetent.
Credit card rails are expensive legacy rails, that part of the stack is the target to disrupt in this context. In the context of the digital euro, you can think of it as a demand deposit account backed by the central bank (as most fiat deposit accounts are in some way) that is portable between banks, like you’d move a US investment account that can hold securities between brokers with ACATS at the clearinghouse.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48415854 (recent subthread with some related context)
Global instant payment system map: https://www.pymnts.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/05/PYMNTS-Rea... [pdf]
That's a massive oversimplification, and doesn't even address the OP's point that directly challenges this.
Lot of errors in your post.
Not to mention the fact that you confuse Mastercard and Visa for "credit card rails" further underscores this.
Your comment history shows a decidedly anti EU sentiment, including against EU sovereignty (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48515118, for example), make of that what you will.
> How come the EU is making a "digital sovereignty" push? Why are only EU people allowed to compete for EU services? Are there no evil people in the EU?
I like tech that improves efficiency (disintermediating unnecessary US commercial payment processors) and decouples from proven threat actors and nation state aggressors, that is my interest on this topic, ymmv.
One big difference is that in the U.S. cardholders are largely protected from credit card fraud (not debit card fraud), so the card vendors have to take the risk and so have robust anti-fraud measures (both before and after payment). Largely it is the merchants who have to prove that there was no fraud. Whereas in Europe the burden of evidence (not proof) is with the cardholder.
You get nervous about giving your card to a waiter because you’re in a foreign place with a nonsense payment system worst than most developing countries and it’s not something you’re ever asked to do anywhere else.
In the US, you simply have no choice if you want to eat in a restaurant, so people are used to it. I'd expect total skimming rates to be higher in the US, since magnetic stripe transactions have been phased out in effectively all other countries. People don't care because they don't directly pay for the resulting fraud out of pocket. As a society, of course everybody still pays for it.
> Largely it is the merchants who have to prove that there was no fraud
No, in-store, it's the issuing bank that's liable, even in the US (unless the card is PIN-preferring, which is usually only true for foreign cards).
There's also a large difference between counties. In the Nordics its ubiquitous, I haven't carried or needed cash for almost 20 years. Meanwhile Germany has barely started to use cards.
No thanks.
Ideal/Wero is good.
Use my credit cards for larger online payments. Mainly because it has insurance and makes it easy to dispute something.
Last year a large Swedish clothing brand didn’t deliver 400 euros worth of clothing. They said they did. I have nothing. Customer service unhelpful. I disputed it with the bank where I have the credit card. The same day it was fixed.
[0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/29/mastercard-vis...
And in this specific case I kinda of agree with what they banned. And they are definitely not the only ones. Lots of financial institutions block these kind of things.
The idea that people have private property does seem to be something governments are incredibly keen to erode.
and there should be a right to use all payment methods in the constitution or whatever the eu equivalent is. all stores must accept digital euro and physical stores also accept cash. crypto shouldnt be a part of the system but protected from being made illegal in any member state, privacy coins especially.
I am still not quite sure how this would affect my day-to-day (private) payment experience transaction cost etc.
But is has strategic value for Europe:
> [...] European dependencies in critical technologies. A digital euro could mitigate these developments in the medium term if the infrastructure is mainly operated by European companies and if European payment service providers manage to achieve a leading position in the evolving ecosystem for digital euro services.
Some more: https://www.ecb.europa.eu/euro/digital_euro/timeline/profuse...
Credit Card usage is really different between those regions. While I lived in EU, I rarely used credit cards (even paying online works with debit cards). But in Canada/US, I almost exclusively pay with credit cards now when shopping. Although in fairness it took me a few years to get in the habit of using credit cards and 'collecting points'.
https://www.ecb.europa.eu/euro/digital_euro/faqs/html/ecb.fa...
Read the FAQ, it's about no longer relying on US payment processors for handling transactions in a different country that may not support your country's payment system
If this is true then what will this new "digital Euro" change about the reliance on US credit cards? It seems that the 25% of people that are swiping US credit cards are doing it for the convenience and benefits of using a credit card. Will this digital euro change that?
It should say "Digital euro clears key hurdle as EU seeks to break free from U.S. debit and credit card processors". Most debit cards in the EU are either Visa or Mastercard, although there used to be more local/national systems.
In Brazil, which is further along in the transition to digital cash, PIX already supersedes debit cards. Some banks already offer deferred PIX payments, wherein the merchant receives the money right away and the buyer pays their bank later, with interest. The central bank is also developing a "pix with guarantee", which will compete with credit cards: payment would be agreed to be settled at a later date, with the bank guaranteeing that the merchant will receive the money.
Even though I and the supermarket I go to are both part of SEPA and I can issue a bank transfer that will clear ~instantly, today cashless payments still involve EMV for various reasons.
This kind of thing is why I'm optimistic both about Bitcoin and fiat currencies in third world countries like Brazil and India.
European Parliament committee backs digital euro - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48645468 - June 2026
The boulder that is de-Americanization has rolled too far downhill now and gained too much momentum; it can no longer be stopped.
The two thirds of Americans who either voted for Trump or couldn't be bothered to vote against him because they aReN't PoLiTiCaL are going to have to come to terms with their new place in the world one way or another. The US is no longer seen as a stable military partner[0], nor a stable economic partner as evidenced by TFA. It's easy to blame Trump but he is merely a symptom of the root cause, which is the attitudes shared by a huge number of Americans.
America will cease to be (and in some cases already has ceased to be) the world's epicenter of geopolitical soft power, scientific innovation, and financial clout. Treaties to which the US is a signatory are not worth the paper they're printed on. The foundations have already been laid, and the de-Americanization trend can't be stopped. For a people so accustomed to feeling like a privileged special class of world citizens, I honestly wonder if the American psyche can handle it. Probably we'll see a wave of people who "never supported Trump in the first place", just like tons of Germans were "never Nazis in the first place" once it became socially unpalatable.
So, congrats, I guess. At least you guys got some people with brown skin deported.
[0] https://www.readtheline.ca/p/matt-gurney-we-will-never-fucki...
Trump moved overton window so much we will be fed story about how we shall be glad for the corrupted but not vulgar politicians that do barely minimum.
Because nothing speaks freedom more than a crazily centralized digital currency
/s
I've always found credit cards stupid. You just want to pay for something, and then suddenly you have a debt. You shouldn't be in debt when you can clearly pay with money you have. Credit card companies advertise with "super easy payments" and "buy now pay later" but at the same time the government warns all the time that "lending money costs money". Also, if your credit card number and CVC get leaked, then anybody can steal any amount of money, and your only recourse is to regularly check your statements and warn the bank within a month. Whereas with Wero/iDEAL you must authorize the exact transaction at that exact amount.
Supposedly, Americans have these "credit card rewards" loyalty program things. Doesn't exist in Europe. You can only pay, you don't get any bonuses. Which makes the only reason to have a credit card is to be able to pay in web shops that don't accept Wero/iDEAL.
In addition I can deposit money on my credit card, so effectively I never have to be in debt if I don't want to. I just have to charge it up which is done in like 3 seconds in the banking app. It can even be automated.
Lastly credit cards with bonus programs definitely exist in Europe. Cashback variations are the most common ones, but all kinds of programs exist. E.g. Eurowings has one https://www.eurowings.com/de/ihre-vorteile/kreditkarten/uebe...
(I don’t think the fraud distinction you’re making is as stark in practice: in the US, you’re less exposed to fraud with credit since it’s the creditor’s money, not yours. Reversing a debit transaction in the US is somewhat more involved, albeit for not-good reasons concerning the US’s aging financial infrastructure.)
Wero, SEPA, and the digital euro are complementing each others
The liability model is completely different in the US from Europe w.r.t. merchant vs bank.
The interchange fees are much much higher in the US, which is what pays for the rewards. Europe has an artificial cap.
The only reasons to use a CC in EU are:
- online payments where CC is the only accepted form of payment
- delay payments until after receiving wage
- hotels, car rentals, and other places that lock an amount on your card
- extra insurance provided by some more premium cards (VISA Gold etc)
Ever since 3-D Secure (2FA for CC transactions, beyond the CCV code), you have been liable for any transaction that was validated by it. Your bank may still do a chargeback as a courtesy, but that's not guaranteed.
You're just raising the price for everyone for the sake of Visa & Mastercard's profit. Europe's cap makes a ton of sense.
It's not fully unnecessary step in-between when fraud is involved.
If someone hacks you/deceives you and somehow they got $5000 from your debit card, then your bank account is $5000 smaller. That can impact your ability to pay rent, or whatever you needed those $5000 for.
If it's via credit card, you have a decent amount of time to contest and resolve the issue.
the disputed amount should effectively be removed from your balance or offset by a temporary provisional credit until the investigation is completed
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_household...
But I guess it’s the same logic as the tipping point/ salary culture in the US.
Or the fact that sales tax is not always included in the price.
EU has low fees for transfer, USA has high fees for transfer but apparently its easier for an US Citizen to dispute something.
At least as far as i'm aware, if i send money to someone else, its gone.
Whats that artifical cap?
I've never understood this mentality. It's like walking through a dangerous neighborhood knowing that you have excellent health insurance. If you get stabbed, you'll probably recover very well, but why take the risk?
I can understand going into debt to buy a house, but I can't understand going into debt to buy a can of tuna. Why take an unnecessary risk?
>> This is just another shitcoin no one asked for.
Giving Europe independence from US payments processors is a huge deal and very necessary.
You do realize that US payement processor like Visa & MasterCard rely on chip technology from French company (Gemalto, now part of Thales), so these companies aren't independent from EU to start with.
Getting independence from the networks themselves, you only need to create a local competitor ...
And those has been existing for multi-decades in each country. E.g. Carte Bleue(France) Bancomat (Italy), Bizum (Spain), SIBS (Portugal) etc.
Just merge those into a bigger more ambitious network
"EuroPA" is exactly that effort. A digital euro is completely orthogonal to that effort.
Crazy people don't see how dystopian and dangerous the concept of a centralized digital currency is...
Besides this GDPR Website thing, usb-c is great, energy standards are great, etc.
IMO the biggest issue is that the member states are individually required to set up agencies to police this. This makes perfect sense for local companies, but is meaningless against large entities that operate across the entire EU.
You can report issues to your local watchdog. That takes quite some time, given the large amount of companies that do not follow the law, but it is enforced
Nonetheless, i have seen in a very small company that we changed the behaviour of a camera which then only turned on when the action expected it and not before.
And in a very big company you alway have to fullfill it as a product standard.
What about RSD to Serbia? CHF to Switzerland?
Or, if the UK/USA/China set up their own pseudo-cryptocurrency, you can probably exchange digital euros for digital dollars or digital yuans.
My VISA card is not only a convenient payment method, it also forces ATM operators to give me cash without any extra fees. In Germany the EC card used to be THE way of paying with a card but you had to go to the ATMs of your bank, otherwise there would be sometimes pretty ridiculous fees. The kicker was that the fees were set by your home bank.
Add to that the ease of use online as well as in shops and it's easy to see that this is not going to be easy. I do root for them though, to do better than Wero.
And that has absolutely nothing to do with Visa, but everything to do with your local banks.
I do use my credit card everywere and i'm sure ingdiba is also saving money due to not having offices/ATMs everywhere, but i wouldn't mind if something in the background changes and we can replace Visa/Mastercard with something from the EU.
I still see atm fees over here in the us, so it can't just be being visa. I would guess some regulation but you could get that applied to the digital euro too probably?
My Danish bank imposed a fee on using an ATM from another bank, until my income was high enough to make me a "premium" customer, then these fees were removed. The card didn't change.