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Discussion (76 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews
First, the headline result of 0.7*sigma improvement is the output of a statistical based on lessons/reviews they engaged with and their mid-term score, with that shift being for "full engagement". Based on their tables something like ~16 students (11% of the group) actually reached that level of engagement
Second, trying to incorporate past grades into their modelling is not a substitute for a randomized trial.
Third, the headline engagement number of 90% is for "engaging with the platform, via Module Review or Lesson Quizzes, at least once". I don't know why much of that couldn't just be attributed to novelty. Or even partly a professor with all sorts of enthusiasm for the platform.
Fourth, the "full dosage" effectiveness is measured based the final exam scores. Were these exam questions produced independently from the "Phosphor" materials? (e.g. by blinding?) Were they checked for direct overlap with those materials? The 0.7 sigma shift is 3 points on a 24 point exam; if even a few of the questions on that exam were very similar to those materials it could account for almost all of it. This is not clear to me from the manuscript.
If this was the case, then it's a question less of "is AI effective" vs. "did the students look at the materials". You could still argue that the AI platform got them to read, but that is a somewhat different statement than the AI helped them learn.
That means their experiment design is partially caused by their results instead of the other way around, which is a bad situation to be in. Their statistical analysis is completely inadequate for dealing with this.
And the change in engagement suggests that there's strong selection involved. Their attempt to use midterm scores to control for selection effects is unconvincing. Why not control for whether students used the platform more when there were only multiple-choice questions? Those are the ones who self-selected out of using the AI grader.
A song just for you, a SaaS just for your niche, a lesson plan just for you...
I am pretty pessimistic these days, but on the other hand, once the "wrinkles" get worked out this is pretty darn cool. As an education outlier, I really could have used some custom tutors. This is what has set the apart the rich from the poor since forever.
(ie changing the environment can lead to short term productivity gains because either participants are aware they are being watch, or it breaks up the monotony and makes people work a bit harder. )
I'm convinced this is the future of education - models are there, we need the classroom tech to catch up. The alternative is obvious and quantified in the paper - students just use models to do their work for them and learn nothing.
Maybe reMarkable or something like it could help bridge a student's writing with an LLM without having to fall back to a laptop or ipad.
https://remarkable.com/
What does “bridge a student’s writing” mean?? If this is a real argument it needs to be clearer.
What’s the functional difference between a Remarkable and an iPad? The former is less responsive, costs less, and has better battery life, right? I really don’t see how that’s significant to any kind of development of anything.
Are you talking about running a local model??
Practically, I think if you want the AI system to have a live view of what the student's doing you're going to have to replace one of either the tablet or the writing instrument. A wearable camera could work as well but there are issues with that.
and after looking it up, it appears they are still available: https://www.livescribe.com/landingpage/ls3_onenote/
Spaced repetition is very effective, but it's really really clunky to use. My unpopular opinion is that we all have Stockholm syndrome when it comes to creating "cards", and people talk about how valuable creating cards is; but I think it stucks, it takes a lot of time.
If AI is already teaching me math (let's say), it would be nice to tell the AI/app "quiz me on this periodically", and then the AI makes up a fresh polynomial to factor (or whatever) and presents that to you according to a spaced repetition algorithm.
Behind the scenes, the AI should have access to what has happened the last several times a specific topic has been quized, so the AI can watch to see that certain mistakes are resolved, and the AI might also know better how to correct the user if it has context about previous quizzes of that topic.
I'm willing to grant that there is some value in choosing what to put in the cards, but most of the awkwardness around making cards is UI related. Nobody creates cards on their phone, or while they're walking (AI could do both of these) - people create cards sitting at their computer (like cavemen!) usually clicking through a clunky UI and managing thousands of cards with thousands of clicks. That sucks, and people probably wont realize it sucks until something better comes along.
Spaced repetition is just reviewing the same material periodically. It doesn't have to be a complicated system.
We already know how to learn and educate: spaced repetition (periodic review), and retrieval practice (frequent testing). This is how school used to be fore centuries; it's not sexy but it's effective.
Earlier I used Claude by giving it the course material and asking it to generate me exercises (our cpurse work went way over my head) and yeah i learned to differentiate a gradient or Jacobian, but it was very shallow - I knew the formulas, but not what they meant or how to apple them correctly. After I just filled glaring holes I had in Univariate Calculus by readong and doing, I actually started to understand something.
Lon story short, in my experience Learning with LLM’s is ok with very unfamiliar material that is not too complex (there’s obvious problems of LLM’s themselves being pretty ghastly with maths sometimes), but at least it os not better than the traditional method of just putting your nose on the grimd stone.
> and lacks randomized controls. Self-selection is the central threat: students who complete more quizzes may be more motivated or higher-performing generally
But this is still a strong result. I'm excited to see more in this space.
Bloom's Two Sigma Opportunity suggests that there's another SD improvement available: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloom%27s_2_sigma_problem
> constructed-response questions (CRQ) are graded by Claude Sonnet 4.6 against instructor-defined, question-specific rubric criteria
> Crucially, LLMs make it feasible to grade formative CRQ against rubric criteria at scale, a capability that appears pedagogically significant rather than merely convenient.
They specifically call out that the "RAG chat assistant" part of Phosphor (the platform) wasn't used much.
I commend the effort here, but I don't think these results are particularly noteworthy. The conclusion is essentially that people who do practice quizzes will do better on exams.
What do you think tutoring is?
On the other, I'm sceptical of that it'll have "strong benefits" at scale; I'd be more in favor if the wording was "some"/"moderate". I reckon self-selection plays a huge part, as mentioned in the "Limitations" section of the paper.
I'd also caution against attaching the tool to grading. That means students have to put more effort into the course, which increases the chances that they will use LLMs to save time rather than make the investment.
Mind if I ask what did you learn and how you're using it?
The reason I'm asking is that I repeatedly felt excitement only to realize down the line that the explanations didn't actually translate into practical skills. I'm not sure it's even an AI problem, it's a "doing versus reading" problem. Same as with reading a pop-science article and thinking to myself that I learned something about physics or medicine or mathematics.
If it's purely a correlation, then maybe those students would be more successful than average even without the study group. They're already the most motivated kids. Maybe they just do "motivated kid stuff" and would still outperform.
This sentence is accurate, but inevitably leads to the confusion you see in these comments.
I think there is more potential applications possible with combining LLMs with reference/text books. Like how about an assistant that points you to the correct books/chapter/paragraph for the concept you need to understand better for a project you are working on? Or clarify any confusion you are having?
Like a human tutor but infinitely patient and non-judgy + search engine.
What creeps me out about bringing LLM into early education is that it's a period where kids learn to socialize and cope with problems, and I do worry about forming substitute relationships with chatbots that are engineered for sycophancy / enablement. But I guess that's a problem either way, because almost every student will try an LLM at some point.
Just want to say that:
>In our deployment, student-reported reading completion baselines for MATH 010 were approximately 15%, with instructors estimating 10%. Individual student reports of reading compliance ranged from "literally no one does that" to "is this being recorded?"
is hilarious
I'm curious how well you feel this worked because the subject was Statistics (objective grading) versus something more subjective like Civics or Literature.
PS - I'd say this qualifies for Show HN, too!
Do you
It still could be better for students, but it's not obvious that it would be (or maybe not as strongly?).
I'm more curious how students perform on the test with vs. without AI.
Hasn't computer assisted interactive learning already been proven for years? Why does there seem to be so much skepticism about enhancing it with AI?
Is this just something like, astoundingly slow adoption or poor execution? Being held back by paper textbook makers? Teachers unions dragging their feet?
How can interactive AI driven individually paced learning _not_ be obviously dramatically more effective?
Motivation is also a huge part of the problem. I'm wondering if the novelty of the AI tutoring gets more people to try it and whether it would wear off?
It's surprising to me that many students at Dartmouth don't read the textbook. You'd think college admissions would select for that?
It seems promising but, as they say, more research needed.
There ARE technologies that have improved things, but so much high-cost useless tech has been shoved into every level of education that many educators are incredibly leery of new tech.
The issue is that while the underlying technology is useful, the way it gets integrated is frequently not. An administrator cuts a deal for a product they never have to use to an ed-tech giant for a huge amount. Because the ink is dry and a huge sum of money has been spent admins pressure educators to use the technology as much as possible regardless of outcome.
In that context it makes a lot more sense why there is pushback and FUD among educators.
very few are actually motivated to learn and are just there to get a job or its just next thing that they have to do in life.
Are you planning on opening access to Phosphor?
Jk, but the skepticism is inevitable. I think we can be dubious about how AI mobilizes global capital while also appreciating tutoring as one of its best targeted use cases.
Text book reading in this course was 10-15% at baseline ... but this AI thing got 90% voluntary usage ungraded.
Even if its worse per-hour than a textbook, you're now teaching 6x as many students _something_ instead of teaching a small minority everything.
So really it just becomes an optimization problem at that point because most students are at least in the funnel/in the running to learn something.
The paper kind of proves this itself ... they tweaked the quize formats mid-semester and where able to iterate which you can't do on a textbook that nobody opens in the first place
The environment is just obviously two sigma better. This just... seems obvious to me? In the same way that I will get stronger much faster if I have a physical trainer to tell me exactly what I am doing wrong when I do it? And it seems obviously unsolvable other than by getting everyone a private tutor (or AI..?).
Asking from a place of curiosity.
Bloom looked at other methods used in concert to achieve similar improvements to “solve” the problem that could be delivered at scale.
LLMs may provide a new path to the 2-Sigma improvements without the same delivery problems.