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#age#sea#bronze#collapse#more#drought#while#seems#period#something

Discussion (73 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

evanjrowleyabout 3 hours ago
Seems to be a popular topic.

Historian Eric H. Cline has multiple books citing this time period, specifically 1117 BCE as the inflection point for the bronze age "collapse", defined by a deterioration of international shipping routes that weakened the nation-states of the era. I've learned about it recently because YouTube began recommending videos about it.

For example: https://youtu.be/choxcHXhZhE?is=t5lDwQQpqPsE2k5M

One historical event that Cline focuses on is a severe centuries-long drought. It's something the ACOUP article seems to omit. Cline does not focus as much on destruction of bronze-age sites although there is one port city in particular which is linked to the international trade of the time. Exactly who destroyed it appears to be a mystery but it could be linked to the migration theory that ACOUP dismisses. The migration may have actually come as a result of the previously mentioned drought.

The_Bladeabout 1 hour ago
Eric Cline is great - when i had a tooth removed in a somewhat nasty procedure i spent a Caturday hepped up on goofballs watching his videos on LBA while playing Hatshepsut on Diety in Civ VII 1.4 (i got to play test 1.3.2 via Firaxis via discord, ooh la la i call a car hole a garage)

in my personal "immersive learning" period starting 2021, i discovered acoup.blog when Old World came out and extended into reading while playing Civ VI and CK III. it actually started the February before COVID, playing Plague while watching Contagion and reading whatever peer-reviewed shit i could find. total Chris Crawford with a brain-eating amoeba action

EDIT: in the blind i'm guessing the port city of which you speak is Ugarit, which i had never heard of. IIRC everything was weakened by drought and famine, and Ugarit's armies were pulled over to the Hittites who abandoned Ugarit to The Sea Peoples. and the Sea Peoples always came off like a "cosmological constant" fudge factor where constant advances in shipwreck archaeology should provide more clarity in it's merry time

history is dope :)

nchmy3 minutes ago
its been a while since ive read a comment somewhere that I am completely bewildered by. I understand about half the words, and none of the references, that you wrote.

Hope your teeth are doing better now!

Brendinoooabout 2 hours ago
It injects some really interesting color into the Tanakh/Old Testament - I'm not sure anyone has definitively lined up the Bronze Age Collapse with Biblical events, but it sure seems to have happened somewhere between the Exodus and King David.

One can easily see the events leading to the Exodus being enabled by (or causing, depending on who you ask!) the weakening of Egypt, and the period in Joshua and Judges describes a power vacuum: no centralized king over the area, lots of back-and-forth struggles for control; as the Philistines, sometimes referred to by historians as an actual group of the Sea Peoples, often impose their will with instruments of iron.

jerfabout 1 hour ago
You'd probably find https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy2Ic_j0SnA interesting.

For the rest of HN, while that video is from someone who takes the Bible seriously, you can also view it as an interesting examination of the historical time period, even if with a particular lens and slant. Who doesn't have a particular lens and slant anyhow?

detourdog4 minutes ago
I heard that the story of the Exodus and Moses was to unite the northern and southern kingdoms of Judea behind a single figure.
simionesabout 2 hours ago
The Exodus is an entirely fictional account though, it's not based on any real historical events. Even King David seems to be mostly mythical, though there is some vague evidence of a "House of David" being something some real kings claimed descent from.

Edit: I should say "almost entirely fictional". The main scholarly agreement is that it may record some stories of some small numbers (hundreds, at most some thousands - nowhere near the 600k in the Bible) real semitic slaves' escape from Egypt and migration to the area of Canaan, mixing with the local Canaanite population that were the precursors of the Jewish populations of later Israel and Judah.

Brendinoooabout 1 hour ago
I tried to word my original comment in a way that allows a broad range of opinions to make a narrow point; I don't think anything you've said here refutes anything I said. I'm not really here to kick off a serious apologetics fight, though if you want me to engage on your thoughts I could.

(And of the things I mentioned, the Exodus is less likely to line up with the Bronze Age Collapse's chronology anyways. But personally, I think the book of Judges very much feels set in the kind of post-apocalyptic world that the Collapse would have created.)

dylan60416 minutes ago
Doesn't the English monarchy claim lineage back to David?
bazoom42about 1 hour ago
We dont know that.
ReptileManabout 1 hour ago
Iliad is fictional yet Troy existed. The biblical flood was mythical yet couple of thousand years ago black sea connected to the Mediterranean and probably was not entirely unpeaceful.

I have absolutely backed by nothing theory that ancient Armenians and Jews are the same people that got separated. For some tribe living on the shores of east black sea - a myth about massive flood and some saving boat that stopped on Ararat is easy to see how it could be created.

Of course it takes incredible levels of incompetence to be lost in sinay for 40 years. But apply exponential reduction for each generation of oral account and you may get to something resembling truth.

BurningFrogabout 1 hour ago
Are you saying we have no evidence that Exodus happened, or that we have real evidence that it did NOT happen?
cs702about 1 hour ago
The OP talks about the drought extensively. Quoting:

> there is quite a lot of compelling evidence that period of LBAC [late bronze age collapse], especially the 1190s, was unusually dry in the Eastern Mediterranean, which would have caused reduced agricultural output (crop failures). Interestingly, this would be most immediately impactful in areas engaged primarily in rainfall agriculture (Greece, Anatolia, the Levant) and less impactful in areas engaged more in irrigation agriculture (Egypt, Mesopotamia).³ And, oh look, the areas where LBAC was more severe are in the rainfall zone and the areas where it was less severe are in the irrigation zone.

pfdietz39 minutes ago
One possibility I've wondered about is the emergence of a new crop pathogen. This might be addressed by looking at DNA of modern crop pathogens, and possibly looking if there was a change in the crops being grown before/after the LBAC.
darkflooabout 3 hours ago
Shameless plug for my favourite YouTuber of all time https://youtu.be/aq4G-7v-_xI?si=GviYcvEtOAJ1mln7
CountHackulus33 minutes ago
Historia Civilis somehow distills subjects down to squares in a great way. Entertaining and informative. Fantastic channel.
pfdietzabout 3 hours ago
The drought explanation seems particularly plausible for the Hittites, IMO. They had grain storage, but ~3 years of drought would exhaust that. So if the climate becomes just a bit drier the chance of such a three year run increases enough to likely crash their society.

Today we have a huge buffer from the large use of grain to feed animals. In a crisis it could be diverted as human food, with some effort. Large geographic range from global shipping also smooths out blips. Still, a Toba-like eruption would be bad news.

stymaarabout 2 hours ago
> Today we have a huge buffer from the large use of grain to feed animals.

This, plus the gigantic amount of agricultural land being used for biofuel production (almost as much as cattle food).

bryanlarsenabout 2 hours ago
The standard counter-argument is that the corn grown for animal feed and for ethanol production is not suited for human consumption.

But that's only partially true. We wouldn't eat it directly -- it could still be turned into masa or sugar or some other processed food and then eaten.

throwaway27448about 1 hour ago
Who ever thought the idea of biofuel was a good one? Is it just as much a blatant jobs program as it seems?
idiotsecantabout 3 hours ago
It's unlikely that rich countries would experience famine as severely as poor ones and consequently they would probably still demand meat. Grain that could feed people would still feed livestock.
bryanlarsenabout 2 hours ago
A draw down of animal stocks increases meat supply in the short term. As grain gets more expensive, farmers sell animals for meat rather than keeping them to reproduce.
icegreentea2about 3 hours ago
I don't think Bret (the author of ACOUP) omits drought - he leads his section on plausible theories with "period of drying and consistent crop failures". While Bret dismisses the out to in migration/invasion theory, he does support the idea of intra-region migration/warfare (perhaps induced by drought/crop failures).
DicIfTExabout 3 hours ago
The fantastic Fall of Civilizations podcast also had an episode about it: https://fallofcivilizationspodcast.com/2019/01/21/episode-2-...
pixl97about 3 hours ago
Ha, beat me too it. FoC is a great channel.
the-smug-oneabout 2 hours ago
Eric Cline has an interview on "Tides of History" podcast.
flirabout 1 hour ago
I'm really annoyed that Patrick gave up on that. I mean, I know he's been doing it a decade, and I can't chain him to a desk, and I'm being entitled, but...
ape4about 2 hours ago
I think it's a popular topic because so many people are wondering when our civilization will fall.
forlorn_mammothabout 2 hours ago
> deterioration of international shipping routes

like a closing of a certain straight that was essential for a large percentage of a necessary resource?

Amorymeltzerabout 2 hours ago
Patrick Wyman—of the Tides of History podcast—just put out a new book, Lost Worlds, which is worth a read if this is your bag. The basic premise is that the way ancient history is typically taught, "that we moved linearly from foraging to farming, and then from country farmers to city-dwelling, tax-paying subjects of kings and emperors," is essentially wrong. He goes on:

>All of those developments occurred in an orderly sequence: First farming and village life arrived; then surpluses born of human achievement that created social inequality; then hierarchies with priests and chieftains at the top; then massive monuments, cities, states, and writing to keep track of it all. Geographically, the old story of those developments centered on the Fertile Crescent of western Asia, and to a lesser extent the Nile Valley of Egypt....

>That story is wrong in some respects and incomplete in far more.

It's a constant rise and fall, with innovations and cities/civilizations that both did and didn't succeed often equally valid and appropriate paths to take. Sounds kind of bog-standard, I guess, but it's rife with examples of "Oh yeah here's a 1,500 year-old city, but it was 7,000 years ago and then disappeared so you've never heard of it."

satvikpendem16 minutes ago
I'm reading Proto which is about the Proto-Indo-European language family and it discusses exactly this, where the hunter gatherer nomads of PIE moved from the Caucuses to more farming oriented areas like plains they settled down and also interbred with the local farmers. But, when droughts happened and food got more scarce from farming, many of the farmers in turn became nomads again. The DNA shows this change apparently.
The_Bladeabout 1 hour ago
> "Oh yeah here's a 1,500 year-old city, but it was 7,000 years ago and then disappeared so you've never heard of it."

pull it in a bit and you have Ugarit :)

i am convinced if / when AI leads to the collapse of civilization it will be akin to the Late Bronze Age collapse; i.e., not with a bang but a whimper. it was a very delicate economic ecosystem complete with circular dealing; but 3500 years ago people were fighting over Cypriot copper and today we're doing the same only in Lobito (along with Cobalt and Lanthanides) in praise of the almighty god Compute

just to flog the analogy like a Mycenean slave, Compute runs out (with a humorous sidebar where someone tries to put a modern equivalent of arsenic into the chips to perpetuate the self-dealing; hilarity ensues). society collapses (but Musk makes it because like Egypt he has all the gold) and like the Iron Age a Quantum Age comes along out of desperation and the will to survive after yet another Dark Age. if we're lucky.

i'll see myself out

timbits98about 2 hours ago
Given the era, it seems likely that the collapse was the work of multiple angry gods. The author doesn't cover this possibility.
lokarabout 1 hour ago
The closest to that would be the ideas in “ the origin of consciousness in the breakdown of the bicameral mind”
mr_toadabout 1 hour ago
The people of that era would have thought so. The Iliad and the Odyssey (if they have any basis in reality) might be examples of that period seen through a lens of mythology.
bazoom42about 1 hour ago
How so? Are the Greek the sea people then?
mr_toadabout 1 hour ago
Myths don’t have natural or human causes. Instead you have wars caused by divine rivalry (e.g. the Judgement of Paris).

Maybe Troy was actually destroyed by the Sea Peoples, but that probably wouldn’t make as much at the box office.

fuzzfactorabout 1 hour ago
People have always downplayed the number of things their gods can get angry about, while it often escalates beyond sustainability.

>Late Bronze Age Collapse

It was a little late but it had to happen sooner or later.

For those in power there may not be many other opportunities to set the standard for archaic leadership, so better get it while they can.

As we have seen :\

usumgalluabout 2 hours ago
I am mobile and not at my main system with my HN login, so I made this temp, but I think I cracked the primary cause and have been slowly working on a paper to submit to the journals...

I was doing geological research trying to show how crustal displacement theory is incorrect, and stumbled upon a paper that elucidated the insight:

There was a localized weakening of the geomagnetic field in the Levant and in the Med (3 actual areas) starting at roughly 1200 and ongoing until about 600! Im pretty sure Im the first person to posit this theory, but the more I steelman against it the more I think I'm onto something, and the implications are huge... because it has more to do with other subjects such as the evolution of religion in the region too. My theories on that are harder to prove but will be the follow up paper, at first Im just trying to focus on the geological proof.

Essentially a localized reduction in geomagnetic shielding allowing increased cosmic ray flux and solar radiation caused destruction, migration, religious interpretations of what was being seen in the sky, and all the war and tumolt that would come along with those...

lordleftabout 3 hours ago
Beware the Sea Peoples
forintiabout 2 hours ago
There's a Portuguese saying "há mouro na costa" which is literally "there are moor at the coast" and means that there is something fishy going on.
Al-Khwarizmi30 minutes ago
Curious, in Spanish we have the same saying, but always in the negative version ("no hay moros en la costa") which is something you say when you're doing something secret and there is no one around who could see, hear or cause trouble.
hackyhackyabout 2 hours ago
The Moors existed about 1900 years after the Sea People of the Bronze Age.
nkriscabout 2 hours ago
I don’t think they’re implying the moors are responsible for the Bronze Age collapse, merely drawing parallels.
evanjrowleyabout 3 hours ago
In an alternate timeline, The Sea Peoples are Romans sailing to England, the Anglo-Saxons, the Normans. Things became fuzzy when the English themselves became other civilization's Sea Peoples.
appreciatorBusabout 2 hours ago
I would wager that almost every civilization has been some other civilization’s sea people at some point in it’s history.
mr_toadabout 1 hour ago
If invaders appear out of ‘nowhere’, it’s usually by boat or on horseback.
stymaarabout 2 hours ago
Well, at least not civilizations where dreams dry up.
bee_riderabout 2 hours ago
Our favorite pedant should have a new post up today, I think he posts in the afternoon though. At least, checking in the morning and saying “ah, dang, the acoup post hasn’t come out yet, maybe I’ll reread an old one…” is a Friday morning ritual for me.
onion2kabout 2 hours ago
The Bronze Age was the third best age.
inigyouabout 1 hour ago
The Iron Age can be researched at your Town Center, but the Post-Iron Age isn't a real age, it's just an extra setting on the map settings menu that starts you in the Iron Age with everything already researched.
onion2k37 minutes ago
It was a Gold, Silver, Bronze joke. :(
dn3500about 2 hours ago
After the one where humans first harnessed water power, the Dam Age, and when we started wearing clothes, the Garb Age.