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#pixels#css#pixel#unit#inch#font#spec#though#screen#physical

Discussion (25 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

jeberle8 minutes ago
[delayed]
somatabout 1 hour ago
What I want to know is who decided to break px, the last thing we need is yet another screwball physical measurement, css was already full of them. But what "tut tut, everybody is using px and these new hi-dpi displays are rendering things really tiny, we can't have that" and now px as a useful unit is ruined.

Is there a way to use real pixels? My, admittedly quick, search says no. at least nothing jumps out at me from the spec.

fsmvabout 1 hour ago
You could set the CSS zoom property to 1/window.devicePixelRatio with JavaScript but I think you can't do it with CSS only. If you do that then px is physical px. This doesn't include browser zoom though or mobile pinch to zoom. You could also get those with JavaScript but then people would be really confused by the behavior of your website.

You definitely can't get pure integers though it's always a float even if you use whole numbers. It does eventually get rounded before becoming pixels though.

somat12 minutes ago
That is sort of where I ended up, Not that it matters, Pixels should probably never actually be used. It just offends me that a unit that is sort of messy and tied to physical hardware but does provide measurement that can not be found elsewhere. gets neutered and we end up with another useless absolute unit, inch, point, millimeter, pica, the Q(did we really need the Q?) and now the pixel.
notatoadabout 1 hour ago
px is still a useful unit. the user's operating system applying a scaling fator doesn't make it not useful.

if the user's operating system is configured to draw pixels at a 1:1 ratio, your pixels will be drawn at a 1:1 ratio. if the user's operating system is configured to draw pixels at a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio, you as a web developer don't get to override that, but you're still addressing pixels directly. if you want to write software that manages the user's hardware directly without giving them options to override it, the web is probably not the right platform for you.

somat33 minutes ago
The spec fafs around a bit talking about how the px is a "visual angle unit" But I am unable to form an interpretation where the "reference pixel" is anything other than 1/96 inch.

https://drafts.csswg.org/css-values/#absolute-lengths

I guess theoretically a tv could say "this tv will be viewed at 12 feet away so our reference pixel is 1/16 inch" and still be in spec. Which sounds like it has messy implications, Does anyone do this?

Anyway the point being a pixel should fundamentally be a hardware measurement, and if they wanted a "visual angle unit" they should have introduced one.(the moa?) But the last thing we need is a pixel being defined as a hard 1/96 of a inch. which is what we got.

notatoad28 minutes ago
what the spec says doesn't really matter though, the spec is just nonsense people wrote down to try to back-explain decisions that the browsers had already made.

pixels are pixels, and no browser implements them as a fractional-inch measurement. in every actual implementation i'm aware of, they're a hardware based unit.

cedillaabout 1 hour ago
No one decided to break it, it was 1/96th of an inch from the beginning.

The problem with different screens having different pixel densities was already present and obvious in 1996.

"Real" pixels are useless if you don't know anything about the screen you're going to render on.

mananaysiempre40 minutes ago
It was around 1/96" on a conventional PC screen because that was the conventional pixel density for PC screens; it was 1/72" (i.e. 1pt) on a conventional Mac screen for the same reason. That was something to deal with already in the GIFs-in-tables era and remained one as we moved on to CSS, right until Retina happened.

Unfortunately, Retina gave us a nonsensical and hacky “scaling ratio” rather than separate and independent units of physical length, viewing angle, and interaction granularity. (I still can’t get an A4 PDF in GNOME to display at “100%” such that it would actually be 210mm wide on my screen. And Darktable is the only piece of software I know where you can configure ppi and ppd separately.)

cedillaabout 1 hour ago
Correction: in CSS1, from December 1996, a pixel was defined slightly differently, which works out to 1/90th of an inch.
microflashabout 2 hours ago
I’ve found that ch and ex units are heavily influenced by latin characters. They just give weird results with non-latin characters leading to magic numbers. But the concept is really solid: use them if you want the spacing relative to text.
LowTechHNabout 2 hours ago
Thought a magic number is when you hard code a number in logic instead of pulling from a data source
goda90about 2 hours ago
I'm guessing the GP means the weird results leads to adding magic numbers to get good results.
shevy-javaabout 2 hours ago
Nobody uses ch, let's be honest.
dawnerd32 minutes ago
Until design tools like figma use these other units, people will be stuck to rems and pixels.
npnabout 2 hours ago
I also did some experiment with ch many years ago. I found that 60ch is ideal width for block text for easy reading. too bad it is pretty hard to make websites with only 60ch wide.
theokrueger42 minutes ago
content-driven websites that aim to be responsive and accessible should use as little size-related styling as possible. fr for containers and rem/em for text.
cynicalsecurityabout 1 hour ago
What happened to em?
masfuerteabout 1 hour ago
That's what I wondered. I found the spec*. I'd vaguely thought that 1em was the width of "M" but apparently it's just the font-size, and the connection between font-size and the actual size of the text is very font dependent.

So 1ch is defined to be the advance width of "0" (zero), so it's actually telling you something about the current font.

* https://www.w3.org/TR/css-values-4/#font-relative-lengths

radoabout 2 hours ago
Layout shift when the font loads
microflashabout 1 hour ago
Not necessarily. See https://screenspan.net/fallback
rado5 minutes ago
Headline length changes in that demo: https://screenspan.net/prototypes/fallback-font/
awestrokeabout 1 hour ago
I will not take CSS advice from a website that looks like such utter crap on mobile
edent28 minutes ago
May I ask which browser you're using? I do test on all the major ones at a variety of screen sizes.

Or, have your perhaps selected one of the different themes at the top of the site?

shevy-javaabout 2 hours ago
There is no way I will abandon px.

In fact, I think CSS made the wrong decision by proliferating so many things, em, %, px, ch, whatever-else. The human brain is not well-equipped to have so many things for basically the same thing. That's a design flaw in CSS, plain and simple. And the author is thus also wrong. There won't be a mass movement of people using "ch". It would be a good first april article though.