Back to News
Advertisement
Advertisement

⚡ Community Insights

Discussion Sentiment

37% Positive

Analyzed from 2128 words in the discussion.

Trending Topics

#government#anthropic#administration#president#case#court#going#need#security#supreme

Discussion (72 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

DannyBeeabout 2 hours ago
The opinion is quite straightforward, and the evidence on the government's side was entirely nonsense, essentially.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.46...

embedding-shapeabout 2 hours ago
This is probably as a concise summary as you could get from there:

> Defendants have now submitted the administrative record justifying those actions. The record is slim. A four-page memorandum, which post dates two of the three challenged actions, provides the entirety of the government’s rationale. Defendants have now backed away from the thrust of their risk assessment, which relied on Anthropic having backdoor access to its technology once deployed in a national security system. It is now clear that Anthropic undisputedly lacks any such access and that, as Defendants concede, Anthropic’s technology is itself no riskier to the national security than any other “black box” artificial intelligence model

CGMthrowawayabout 1 hour ago
Military suppliers are innocent until proven guilty! Can't see how that could go wrong...
pjc5032 minutes ago
Everyone is, yes, that's how rule of law works.
LadyCailinabout 1 hour ago
Ok, let’s say I buy that. Why was Anthropic singled out?
andrewlaabout 1 hour ago
I think this both overstates and understates the case. The evidence being weak does not invalidate the decision; as the court notes, the government gets substantial deference on matters of national security.

The invalidation comes from the fact that this is clearly retaliatory behavior for speech; and the evidence for this is fairly strong since the administration has made public statements to that effect.

The evidence being weak means that it is clear that there is no reasonable belief that the cause of action is anything but an attempt to apply a penalty for the use of protected speech.

giwookabout 2 hours ago
Like so many of this administration's actions, unfortunately...
crassus_edabout 1 hour ago
As they said during Louis the 14th's reign: "Si veut le roi, si veut la loi.", which translates to the law wants what the king wants.
londons_exploreabout 2 hours ago
Presumably this is going to lead to anthropic getting a big payday from the US gov for all the time their flagship product was banned and all the users they lost due to it
dgellowabout 1 hour ago
The government would just not pay, similar to what trump tried with his rape verdict
peri-clabout 1 hour ago
This is about the DoD supply chain risk designation—*not* the export controls.
ReptileManabout 2 hours ago
The case is not about that though
harimau777about 1 hour ago
I thought that the blacklisting was what led to them losing the business? Didn't the blacklisting effectively mean that contractors couldn't use Anthropic because it was supposedly a supply chain risk?
simonwabout 1 hour ago
That was a different issue from the US government preventing Anthropic from selling general access to their Fable 5 model for a few weeks.
WalterGRabout 1 hour ago
124 comments on this submission from 10 hours prior: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49473522
sailfast35 minutes ago
This is good, generally, for government overstepping especially in the case of targeted domestic restrictions (and what amounts to anti-competitive blackmail in my opinion)

BUT! The judge’s opinion that “The empty invocation of national security is not a blank check to punish and retaliate against government critics," is actually false. In the current administration it’s absolutely a blank check to punish and retaliate and I’m not sure under which authority a federal judge would stop them at this point.

Current Supreme Court had made it clear they don’t have many controls here…

Furthermore, Anthropic isn’t likely to recover any funds after this. So what if it happens to your small hardware startup? It’s a terrible precedent for Hegseth to set, and will lead to future harm. But he’s not the brightest bulb. Keep on talking up “Lethality” buddy… :/

thataccountabout 1 hour ago
https://san.com/cc/no-the-nsa-wasnt-hacked-by-ai-heres-what-...

If this article is accurate, it sounds like Mythos via Anthropic had proven itself to be a security risk. This explains the dual speak around it being both essential and a supply chain risk, since if it were hacked by another country it would compromise security.

Not being any riskier than any other "blackbox" AI is still sufficiently dangerous and I suppose the difference, without knowing more about what the government tested, was that they knew Mythos could do these things as they had evaluated it themselves.

digitaltreesabout 1 hour ago
When this administration is done we need to amend the constitution to hold politicians legally and financially responsible for intentionally lying and intentionally breaking the law. This was obviously illegal on its face and yet there is no consequence to pushing the norms.
zapharabout 1 hour ago
This is impossible until a critical mass of voters across every state starts putting competence and integrity ahead of their pet issue and populism. If you actually want to start making headway in this direction you have to stop voting for candidates in either of the main parties. The parties are probably not salvageable. Find a third party candidate with these qualities and vote for them and convince as many people as you can to vote for them.

If we can't do that then we are just stuck as a body politic.

pjc5014 minutes ago
Realistically, the option that will actually work for you is to fight within Democrat primaries. The absolute best case is you get a Mamdani. (Note this means accepting a bit of populism, because ultimately it's a popularity contest). Third parties are going nowhere due to the coordination problem.

(NB: this is meaningfully different in the UK which has really multi-party elections despite Westminster elections being FPTP)

the_gastropod8 minutes ago
A both-sides guy! How original!

Choose the worst Democratic politician currently in office and please explain what they’ve done or said that is in any way comparable to what the Republican Party is doing.

iAMkenoughabout 1 hour ago
Start with the Supreme Court, who determined “official acts” are to be presumed legal. With no standards test for what qualifies as an official act or not.
junon15 minutes ago
This still makes my blood boil. Even then people didn't seem to care (maybe they didn't understand) and we're all collectively just going along with it.
estearumabout 1 hour ago
I don't think that'd require a Constitutional amendment, would it?
datsci_est_2015about 1 hour ago
Literally the purpose of the House of Representatives, if I understand correctly.

So it requires a critical mass of very local reps to care about executive accountability. Which is exactly why Project 2025 / Trumpism plays the endorsement game so heavily. Fealty.

j4yavabout 1 hour ago
Presumably taxpayers will pay for it one way or the other.
digitaltreesabout 1 hour ago
I think they get a personal financial penalty with no insurance coverage. This has to stop.
Zigurdabout 1 hour ago
We already have the tools. The problem is that the corrupt oligarchs have the money that is considered equivalent to speech. Start with fixing that problem and other problems become solvable.
parineumabout 1 hour ago
It's convenient to blame the "oligarchs" since it justifies you doing nothing since there's nothing you can do.
brookst5 minutes ago
Huh? Are you saying that one should take action… without making any claims about who to oppose?
bell-cotabout 1 hour ago
Could you tell us why the politicians - who are the only ones who have the power to amend the Constitution - would be interested in doing that?
watwutabout 1 hour ago
They actually had laws supposed to act as stop guard against corruption and executive lawlessness. Supreme court systematically dismantled them.

And by supreme court, I mean right wing justices specifically. Who got there thanks to their heritage foundation connections. Which made project 2025.

fabian2kabout 1 hour ago
You just need the rule of law for that. It helps to not elect blatantly corrupt people as president.
simonwabout 1 hour ago
Problem is that apparently the US will occasionally elect a corrupt president, so we need stronger measures in place for when that happens.
ChrisArchitect39 minutes ago
idiotsecantabout 2 hours ago
It did what it was supposed to - punish an entity that dared not do what the government told them to. It doesn't matter if anthropic gets a payday out of it, the administration doesn't get hurt by that and won't learn any lessons. We need to hold individual politicians and functionaries accountable
cubefoxabout 1 hour ago
But I guess Anthropic will not be compensated?
josefritzishereabout 1 hour ago
Lots of that going around in this administration
Advertisement
micromacrofootabout 1 hour ago
Add it to the "but no one's going to do anything about it" pile
dude250711about 1 hour ago
I think Anthropic will tone down the hype in their PR. So there is hope.
techneekabout 1 hour ago
"The empty invocation of national security is not a blank check to punish and retaliate against government critics."
whalesaladabout 2 hours ago
Unlawful means absolutely nothing these days.
derektankabout 2 hours ago
I don’t know, the $166B in refunds returned to importers after the IEEPA tariffs were ruled unlawful by the Supreme Court seem pretty meaningful
j4yavabout 1 hour ago
Meaningful as a mega transfer of tax revenue from citizens to corporations, which for all we know was the whole point.
harimau777about 2 hours ago
Ya, but that's only going to the corporations. I doubt they are going to send the rest of us a check.
embedding-shapeabout 2 hours ago
Meaningful for who though, the common person in the country?
lazideabout 2 hours ago
Not for stopping damage to the end-payers of those fees.

Great for fleecing those end-payers, however.

Tangurena2about 1 hour ago
Congress is supposed to hold the Executive branch accountable. They deliberately refuse to do so because keeping their cult in power is all that matters to them.
lenerdenatorabout 1 hour ago
Of course it does. For those trying to hold the administration to account, there's all sorts of laws.

Can't indict the President for unlawful acts during his term. Can't post pictures online about the President. Can't lawfully protest against ICE agents abducting people off the street.

noir_lordabout 2 hours ago
It's the Gish gallop applied to a legal/legislative system - it just can't keep up with the sheer volume of cases that would need to be brought to curtail even the worst of it and that's assuming that if/when it eventually gets in front of the supreme court that that "august" body actually does curtail it.
horsawlarwayabout 2 hours ago
Yes - because the system is trying to prevent the flood by piling up sticks instead of removing the source of water.

It's in failure mode (intentionally, is my read) because while it might eventually declare "x is not legal" at no point is it discouraging the people who did X (and have now also done y, z, 1, 2, and 3 - all also likely illegal) because there is zero actual accountability at the personal level.

If your house is flooding from a broken pipe... you don't bail. You turn the water off.

estearumabout 1 hour ago
The problem is that courts are getting flooded but it's up to Congress (de facto the Republican party) to remove the source of water.

But they're a mixture of exclusively cultists or cowards so they won't do it.

They need to be charged with any and every crime they can credibly be accused of so this calculus changes in the future.

Tangurena2about 1 hour ago
Steve Bannon, who advised the 45 administration, called that tactic "flood the zone with shit".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_the_zone

https://archive.ph/BfuVs

mc32about 2 hours ago
Right, like the student debt forgiveness. We hate the ones we disagree with and we love the ones we agree with.
kevin_thibedeauabout 1 hour ago
Debt forgiveness was dumb too. It normalized capricious government handouts for volitional actions. After the Corinthian shutdown there was little excuse for taking on massive debt for BS degrees.
dahart7 minutes ago
Why do you assume there’s debt involved? Whether BS or not, people with degrees have higher earnings (~2x on average according to the FED) and pay higher taxes (more than 2x on average); it’s very much in the government’s financial interest for more people to have degrees.
lenerdenator42 minutes ago
How was it dumb?

You have a generation of Americans who were told repeatedly and often in their teenage years that if they wanted to be able to compete in the global job marketplace, they'd need, at the very least, a bachelor's degree.

As it turns out, employers were going to offshore those jobs and cut those wages regardless of your education. The value of degrees was wildly over-inflated compared to the economic reality, particularly after the Great Recession and COVID. The result has been an entire generation of people who aren't able to attain the same life milestones as their parents' generation, which is inherently destabilizing to a society. Corinthian Colleges wasn't the main perpetrator of this; the entire system was. By their shutdown in 2015, most people born between 1980 and 1995 were out of college and were paying massive loans to legitimate schools.

When you have a party (in this case, the federal government) obtaining something of value (student loan interest payments) via statements that are materially not true, there's a word for that: fraud.

Student loan forgiveness was a targeted effort on the behalf of a lending institution's head officer - in this case, the President of the United States - to try and renegotiate the terms of the loan serviced by that institution as to give some remedy to the problem.

This would have required a write-down of the foregone payments that would be approximately equal to what the US government spends on providing OASDI checks to retirees for one year, and most retirees do not rely on OASDI checks to avoid homelessness, starvation, or other destitution. It's basically a bonus that you get for living over the age of 65, at this point being paid in part by loans taken out by the US government that will have to be paid off long after the recipients of that money are dead.

watwutabout 1 hour ago
I dont know what you mean there. There is literally no symmetry between the two. Not in the case of how Biden administration reacted to cases they lost. And also not in the supreme court treatment - it ideological and political goals are pretty clear at this point, although not always pro-Trump.
dzongaabout 1 hour ago
criminals in charge did unlawful shit. what a surprise.
small_modelabout 2 hours ago
"When the president does it, that means that it is not illegal."
blitzarabout 2 hours ago
"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is"
Tangurena2about 1 hour ago
Clinton, being a lawyer, asked for a definition of "sex". The definition given to him did not include oral sex. When a lawyer asks you for a definition of a word, then you are getting screwed.
blitzar42 minutes ago
> then you are getting screwed

depends what the definition ...

ModernMechabout 1 hour ago
The modern Trump version is: "If a president does something which he believes will help him get elected in the public interest, that cannot be the kind of quid pro quo that results in impeachment." - Trump's legal defense during his first impeachment.
nekusarabout 1 hour ago
And NOT a damned thing will be done to punish the administration for these obvious illegal actions.

And they'll continue to do so, because it takes months to unwind this shit, and the damage was done immediately.

kyproabout 1 hour ago
I know most will see this as a good thing, and perhaps in this case it is, but I think it's generally concerning that people can vote for leaders who effectively can't do anything significant.

I understand this community largely disagrees with Trump, but the only people who win overall from these scenarios are people who support the status-quo and don't like the idea of a leader having significant power to change things. Any leader who is elected on a mandate to govern differently will face similar legal challenges.

I'm also not saying there's no place for legal challenges either, but there is a balance to be found there. The idea the Pentagon can't blacklist a US company for whatever reason it wants just seems absurd to me regardless of whether this specific ruling is good or bad.

drngdds2 minutes ago
I support the status quo in comparison to Donald Trump being allowed to use Claude for automated weapons and mass domestic surveillance, yeah
pjc5018 minutes ago
> I think it's generally concerning that people can vote for leaders who effectively can't do anything significant

There's been a ton of this sort of discussion over the past three hundred years, and the consensus which was particularly strong in the Federalist Papers was explicitly that there should be no _one_ person with significant, arbitrary powers.

parineumabout 1 hour ago
> but I think it's generally concerning that people can vote for leaders who effectively can't do anything significant.

The people vote for a lot more than just the president. This isn't the president's job. That's what the judge says, not that nobody can do it, just the president/executive can't.

The people also vote for the people who's job it is to have done the same thing but legally.

kevinthedigger30 minutes ago
Another activist judge. They all need to go, it’s sad that one judge can derail goodness and what’s proper. Kind of like a dictatorship, or a king.