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#apple#design#chips#more#performance#llms#companies#don#foundries#jalape

Discussion (56 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

pamaabout 1 hour ago
Having worked with people doing bringup of specialized chips, I am awed at how the world has changed.

> When the first chips came back from the foundry in May, the team pointed its internal AI models at designing software to run benchmarks such as SemiAnalysis’s InferenceX. On DeepSeek’s multi-head latent attention kernel benchmark, performance climbed from 0.31 percent of the theoretical ceiling (set by the chip’s compute and memory bandwidth) to 88.94 percent in roughly 40 hours. Ho says this result is repeatable, so the time between when foundries deliver the first chips and when production ramps up can be reduced. “All our schedule assumptions are going to be based on the fact we have this capability now,” he says.

program_whizabout 1 hour ago
With a few handy tips and tricks from apple insiders. But sure, I guess the LLMs helped too.
stogot5 minutes ago
This is the part forgotten. Apple is claiming this is their IP embedded on chips that OPenAI stakes the future on. Will they settle?
wmf2 minutes ago
The lawsuit appears to be about consumer devices, not NPUs or ASICs.
bigyabai2 minutes ago
This ASIC is not consumer hardware, which is what the IP in the lawsuit was concerning. It's doubtful they are related.
karim79about 2 hours ago
I grow Jalapeños. This conflation of AI and actual chili peppers irks me.
ameliusabout 2 hours ago
Guess how electrical engineers feel about the term "transformers".
frangonfabout 1 hour ago
As a former EE, attention was all I needed to not get zapped.
cyberaxabout 1 hour ago
:groan:
karim79about 2 hours ago
This is an excellent comment. I'm still laughing.
Lalabadieabout 2 hours ago
I do generative art (no relation to AI prompting). I feel your frustration.
DrewADesign11 minutes ago
Same
fragmedeabout 1 hour ago
Cryptographers also got the same raw deal with cryptocurrency, and every one just said "crypto?"
monkpit34 minutes ago
Or cyber…
TomGardenabout 2 hours ago
Oh my!
asveikauabout 2 hours ago
Just think of how the people of Xalapa, Mexico feel. They should send them a royalty check.
seanmcdirmidabout 1 hour ago
Jalapeño also used to be a Java VM written in Java at IBM.
glitchcabout 2 hours ago
Feeling the burn?
smitty1eabout 1 hour ago
To say nothing of the Red Hot Chili Peppers.
Razenganabout 2 hours ago
> irks me

It's jalapeño grill would you say?

karim79about 2 hours ago
Not sure what you're talking about. But I'll tell you, home grown Jalapeño peppers, fermented with 3% salt is the stuff of dreams.
wimlabout 2 hours ago
"It's all up in yo' grill, would you say?"
chrismarlow9about 1 hour ago
slow claps
honeycrispyabout 2 hours ago
I'm annoyed that the meaning of the word "Agent" has been obliterated.

Like, why couldn't they invent a new word and not hijack an existing word?

karim79about 1 hour ago
Call it GPTChippomatic or something. Please leave my peppers alone.
Razenganabout 2 hours ago
Did you not watch the Matrix documentary?
MadrasTh0rnabout 1 hour ago
I guess I'll have to
muchdoubtabout 1 hour ago
Seems pretty obvious now that OpenAI is just hyping their models in order to get companies (in this case, chip developers) to use their products in order to learn from their (exfiltrated) IP. Any corporation would be foolish to use any of their or Microsoft’s products, particularly those with valuable IP. There’s nothing in the article that says AI did anything creative but rather that it was used for software development within the overall project. Clear misleading title. Suggest to mark this as clickbait.
xpctabout 1 hour ago
Aw, I was expecting more details but this just seems to be a rehash of what they unveiled a month ago.
ameliusabout 2 hours ago
At some point people will use an LLM to design an Apple M series competitor.
nullc5 minutes ago
And be super-bankrupted by patent litigation from Apple. I don't think they're worried.

After all, they successfully threatened Adobe with spurious patent litigation unless they joined w/ apple in illegally fixing wages.

You don't think a criminal like apple would absolutely decimate any competition given the opportunity? They didn't hold back when it was a unambiguous crime, they surely wouldn't if it was merely bad for the world.

xpct33 minutes ago
Isn't that weird? The full knowledge of how to make such chips may one day be accessible to anyone, yet only the entrenched companies will remain the makers.

If we imagine machines being able to do the full process end-to-end, and the quality of that process only dependent on capital spent on tokens, I don't see how new companies could ever enter the market.

Lramseyerabout 2 hours ago
Production grade CPU design is more than just the RTL (the source code.) To achieve the performance numbers that these companies get, you have to do a ton of optimization in your physical design to achieve the power/performance/area (PPA) metrics that make these products competitive. LLMs are not suitable for that kind of work.

There are people working on PPA optimization and trying to shake up how things are done, just not with LLMs.

btownabout 1 hour ago
Something that I think is fascinating, though, is that labs are no longer beholden to the limitations of commercial design software. Want to replace your simulator and optimizer with a fully custom verifiable stack of Lean proofs of optimality and correctness? Just throw your unlimited token budget at it.
xpct41 minutes ago
I don't work in the business, but my understanding was that even with these companies' budgets, it's still too expensive to do any kind of verified performance optimality.
bhoustonabout 2 hours ago
It is probably doable right not to push a risc-v design into that performance space.
bigyabaiabout 2 hours ago
They won't, because they'd need an ARM architecture license.
nr378about 1 hour ago
Qualcomm have an architecture license and the Snapdragon X2 Elite Extreme X2E-96-100 isn't too far off the M5 Pro.

[1] https://browser.geekbench.com/processors/snapdragon-x2-elite...

[2] https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/macbook-pro-14-inch-2026-...

bigyabai5 minutes ago
Are they using LLMs to close that gap, or is this their Nuvia acquisition doing the heavy lifting?
ameliusabout 2 hours ago
Why, the LLM can make up its own architecture.

The value lies in the design space exploration, which is what an LLM can easily do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_space_exploration

wmfabout 2 hours ago
Arm sells architecture licenses to anybody these days.
pixl97about 2 hours ago
I mean you can design anything without a license. Selling it is where the problems come up. Even then there are likely places in China that would still make it for you.
cmrdporcupineabout 1 hour ago
Or they'll just build a competitor in RISC-V instead and that's fine.

Except the problem is not restricted to the actual ISA or its HDL implementation, etc.

It's even just getting space / time in a fab at that advanced of a process node.

ramshankerabout 1 hour ago
So when can we start getting cheap chips? RAM anyone please!
faitswulff30 minutes ago
Everyone's still bottlenecked on foundries, not designs.
jeffybefffy51926 minutes ago
Cant AI build foundries?
altcognito19 minutes ago
Something we can all agree with is we need more foundries and green power.
senectus115 minutes ago
yup, but it'll take about 3-5 years.
gozucitoabout 1 hour ago
It is surprising to me that recursive self-improvement seems more plausible now than it did in 2023. Am I the only one to be surprised?

I remember the paper proving that hallucinations could never be fully solved back in 2024: https://arxiv.org/abs/2409.05746

I also remember the hang-wringing about running out of new datasets to train on. Now it appears humans are always generating more data. It's just not as cheap to acquire as legacy data? Meta has to give a deep discount on their API prices to entice people.

I thought back then that humans had a few more breakthroughs in them as meaningful as the seminal Attention is all you need paper. Enough to 100x the capabilities of LLMs back then (10x the smarts and 10x the speed simultaneously).

RSI with a 20 month turnaround for a chip to be made is not exactly breakneck speed though. Physical manufacturing and logistical constraints are going to be and remain a hard obstacle to that process for the foreseeable future.

google234123about 1 hour ago
Congrats to the former TPU team
geraneumabout 1 hour ago
Whatever happened with the Apple lawsuit?
cute_boiabout 2 hours ago
openai should figure out how to make lithography machine, so ASML don't have monopoly on it.
TomGardenabout 1 hour ago
The Chinese have been working on EUV for a while
bigyabaiabout 2 hours ago
"Reverse engineer this DARPA project, make no mistakes"
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