Back to News
Advertisement
Advertisement

⚡ Community Insights

Discussion Sentiment

47% Positive

Analyzed from 1392 words in the discussion.

Trending Topics

#fusion#power#energy#thing#lot#more#https#reactor#build#simulator

Discussion (56 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

FiatLuxDave•44 minutes ago
I actually like the recirculation simulation. Although all kinds of cyclical engines have recirculation of power as part of their function, in fusion there is an important difference from what people are used to. In an internal combustion engine, the crankshaft and flywheel in a car recirculate power from the power stroke to the compression stroke, doing the same thing as the recirculated energy does in this simulation. But in fusion, this 'crankshaft' is very lossy. I suspect if you have a model in your head of how an internal combustion engine works, crankshaft losses are not a big thing. Teaching people that when they model fusion reactors that they need to include this because it's important, I think would help people develop better physical intuition. The 'lossy crankshaft' model was an important part of why I opted for partial direct conversion with the design I built back in the '90s. Set both eff sliders high to see how much this helps.

That said, one big missing thing (other than the economic stuff, mentioned by others) which would add a lot to this simulation would be more about 'where does Q come from?'. Obviously this could be too complicated for a little sim, but perhaps a few simple things could be added like showing how increasing the volume/surface ratio for tokomaks/sphereomaks can help, or how getting rid of certain types of instabilities can improve say mirror or pinch designs. This might help people to understand why certain design decisions (like building ITER so big) were made.

leonidasrup•16 minutes ago
I will quote Prof. Dennis Whyte

"The limitations of 20+ year-old Nb3Sn superconductor magnet technology forces ITER to be so large it is taking the entire world to build a single device"

https://youtu.be/KkpqA8yG9T4?t=1471

sam•31 minutes ago
Well said about the “lossy crankshaft”. As for what determines Q, that’s up next, stay tuned :)
dale_glass•about 4 hours ago
A good addition would be the sales price per MWh, price for the power plant, and the loan interest rate.

Because IMO all that is extremely critical. I fully support the pursuit of fusion as a scientific endeavor, but given that we're probably at least 30 years away from having anything approaching commercial deployment (assuming ITER is built, works, is followed promptly by DEMO, it works, and is followed promptly by people building more reactors. That's a heck of an assumption), it's not at all a given that it'll ever make a profit. That's a lot of time to build a lot of very cheap renewables.

And there's also opportunity costs. I see a lot of hopes put on fusion and don't really understand this chasing of the perfect solution. Even best case, it's not happening in decades, and it'll take decades more to build fusion as anything more than one off multi-decade-long research projects. That's a lot of time for the world to get worse while waiting for fusion to happen, and we might as well just throw renewables at the problem now instead of waiting.

So opportunity costs would also make for an interesting thing to calculate. Given that fusion will likely not make a major difference climate/pollution-wise for half a century, what else could we build in that time, and how much and what effect would that have?

leonidasrup•about 5 hours ago
For those interested not only in simplified energy balance of a fusion power plant as shown in Fusion Power Plant Simulator, but in more realistic engineering of heat extraction from a tokamak I recommend the following lecture by Dr. Dennis Whyte from MIT Plasma Science & Fusion Center.

Fusion Reactor First Wall Cooling

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHJyoqDO0zw

One of the designs uses 3D printed silicon carbide vacuum vessel cooled by a layer of molten lead and a layer of FLiBe (a molten salt made from a mixture of lithium fluoride (LiF) and beryllium fluoride (BeF2)).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLiBe

The lithium component of FLiBe is used for breeding of the radioactive isotope tritium, which will be extracted from the salt and used for making the deuterium-tritium fuel of the tokamak.

andrewla•about 1 hour ago
Apologies if I've missed something, but isn't this all just a fantasy? None of the current methods for getting fusion power are even close to being practical -- even the theoretical net output experiments require extensive and sensitive measurement setups just to establish whether or not they are positive energy.

We are not in a place where we expect fusion power to be incrementally achieved by the current systems. We need major breakthroughs that are both impossible to predict and may not even exist outside of stars or thermonuclear devices.

The idea that we'll get massive improvements in Qsci, while maintaining the same basic structure as existing fusion systems, is in the end a bit silly. What would we estimate our confidence to be that when someone invents the Fromboculator, that the Fromboculator will even have a heating system or "vacuum vessel" or a plasma system.

In the end, this looks like it's a steam engine simulator more than anything else, but with some fancy words thrown in.

MisterTea•about 5 hours ago
No melt down? This game sucks.

On a serious note: I wonder how practical and safe it would be to build fusion pants close to city centers in order to harvest the excess heat for district heating. Would be a boon in e.g. NYC which already has a large district steam system. You can do cooling too, look up "steam absorption chiller."

advisedwang•about 4 hours ago
> I wonder how practical and safe it would be to build fusion pants close to city centers in order to harvest the excess heat for district heating

The cost/benefit for doing this seems pretty similar between fusion as gas power. We don't usually do this with gas, so I guess it's probably not viable for fusion.

cyberax•about 4 hours ago
Fusion power plants can't "melt down". The amount of plasma inside the vacuum chamber is just around a gram.
adrianmonk•about 2 hours ago
That's the joke, isn't it?

A fission power plant simulator lets you have fun playing through a meltdown disaster scenario. A fusion power plant simulator is "worse" because it takes away the "fun" of meltdowns. The humor is in reacting to the simulator as if it were a game (some are, but this one isn't).

PunchyHamster•about 2 hours ago
Might not be similar to nuclear meltdown but still enough to need a lot of money to fix
JumpCrisscross•about 3 hours ago
> Fusion power plants can't "melt down"

Eh, a core-containment failure (in any magnetically-contained system) would involve superheated hydrogen getting friendly with oxygen. That, in turn, would give neutron-impregnated barrier materials a free ride on propellant. It's not strictly a melt down. But it's in the same practical category of failure.

gmueckl•about 3 hours ago
Ths is a massive misunderstanding of the technology. First of all, the amount of hydrogen in the reactor is tiny. The magnetic confinement severely limits the density of the plasma. The inner containment vessel is a ultra high vacuum chamber. The chemical energy that would be released by a reaction between the hydrogen in the reactor amd oxygen from the air would be less than what is released by popping a hydrogen filled balloon with a lighter.

The truly concerning failure modes would be related to release of radiation or activated materials. But that would require damaging the reactor in ways that the reactor is incapable of imparting on itself.

Overall, the technology is remarkably safe.

Symmetry•about 3 hours ago
There's only a few grams of hydrogen in the reactor's plasma, it's reaction with oxygen wouldn't be much more exciting than just losing containment. There are engineering challenges that have to be addressed but no worse than the 6 MW research reactor I used to walk by every day to my college classes in the middle of a dense city.

The proliferation risk of someone using the neutron flux to produce an atomic or dirty bomb are real but that exists no matter where it is.

Aardwolf•about 3 hours ago
What's the effect of this in a populated area in a certain radius? Compared to nuclear power plants...
HPsquared•about 5 hours ago
Hard to melt something that's already plasma I suppose.
0cf8612b2e1e•about 2 hours ago
Does anyone have a collection of these little simulator systems? I love playing with them.
chris_va•about 3 hours ago
The recirculating power for the magnetics should be included (at least for pulsed), as the RTE there tends to drive the design.
sam•about 2 hours ago
Power to magnets (at least those not contributing to heating) are assumed to be included in the house load.
chris_va•about 2 hours ago
For pulsed power, with an optimistic beta of 1, the magnetic field energy is going to be comparable to the heat energy. The house load here seems tied to a static superconducting coil, not a pulsed field.

And can in many cases be much higher than the heat energy (e.g. theta pinch).

ajmarsh•about 3 hours ago
Loved this game when it first came out.

https://www.myabandonware.com/game/three-mile-island-7mu

JumpCrisscross•about 5 hours ago
Something I've been asking my AIs to do when modelling with them is to ask for the algebra for the model so I may recreate it by hand. Including such a PDF with these links would be helpful because it succintly presents the logic in a denser form than an explainer article.
sam•about 5 hours ago
Yeah, it’s slightly buried - the publication with all the details, including the math is linked to in footnote 3 of the explainer article,

https://pubs.aip.org/aip/pop/article/29/6/062103/2847827/Pro...

It’s open access and you can download the PDF directly from there.

NooneAtAll3•about 5 hours ago
For whatever reason the game doesn't load until I switch to the dark mode

If I enable advanced mode, the "exiting" in Heating Power (exiting) gets overlapped with corresponding numbers

Display menu doesn't allow switching to Energy mode

sam•about 5 hours ago
Thanks - what browser?
caldis_chen•about 5 hours ago
I think the first thing I thought when every man opened this project was: how to make this thing explode.
Advertisement
rao-v•about 5 hours ago
This would sell on Steam with a light Godot reskin
logicallee•about 4 hours ago
Those who like playing with this sort of thing might like to play with this superconductor-coil-as-a-battery exploration where electricity just goes round as storage![1]

[1] https://stateofutopia.com/experiments/wheeeeeloop/wheeeeeloo...

ck2•about 5 hours ago
fantastic PBS Space Time on what the last steps are going to be to finally make fusion possible

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAJN1CrJsVE

(fusion is -always- just a decade away, perpetually, lol)

JumpCrisscross•about 5 hours ago
> fusion is -always- just a decade away, perpetually

Wasn't it perpetually 20 to 50 years away? I'm not an expert on the space. But new computational methods and magnets seem to be genuine steps forward.

ck2•about 4 hours ago
the PBS Space Time episode suggests to me the housing walls might be the biggest problem

it consumes itself or makes molecules that are destructive to the walls or insanely toxic so can never risk leaks

whatever solution they come up with I suspect it will require a lot of constant maintenance on the first generation

Lapsa•about 4 hours ago
reminder - there's tech out there capable of reading your mind remotely