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#sugar#aspartame#msg#sweeteners#taste#don#sucralose#more#sweet#insulin

Discussion (111 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

mountain_peak43 minutes ago
I'll impart my n=1 experience, since I've been using powdered Aspartame (in combination with Stevia) in drinks and baking for almost 20 years, and I've tried almost all available sugar substitutes over the years.

We already know from glycemic index charts that almost all sugar substitutes impact blood glucose to a certain degree, and there are only a few that have no impact. When sucralose became widely available, I bought some to try to bake with, but the carrier was maltodextrin - a starch, which prevented me from using it. Undeterred, I purchased pure sucralose drops in a neutral liquid. The sickly-sweet mouth feel after consuming sucralose is a bit tough to take [0], but that wasn't the worst of it. It actually impacted my blood glucose, and when I read more of the research, sucralose actually did cause an insulin reaction in many people who consumed it ("Several studies have shown that sucralose is not physiologically innocuous").[1]

Then I read how sucralose is produced; literally thousands of pounds of sugar is used and converted to produce a few pounds of sucralose. It's being pushed hard by the industry, and I can only think of the 'vilification' of cheaper sweeteners such as Aspartame by industry, much in the same way that saccharin was vilified by flawed [2] studies in the 1970s - just as Aspartame was being developed as a commercial product.

Alcohol is a class 1 carcinogen, and sugar causes irreparable damage to millions of people around the world. I find it somewhat odd how people react to what appears to be a flawed and dubious Aspartame study, when there are much larger elephants in the room.

[0] https://nationalpost.com/news/world/after-sales-plummet-diet...

[1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7155288/

[2] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3185898/

sph24 minutes ago
> It actually impacted my blood glucose, and when I read more of the research, sucralose actually did cause an insulin reaction in many people who consumed it

Yeah the research has been pointing this out for a while now: even if it doesn't contain digestible sugars, the body, once again, is not a furnace and might activate similar pathways when ingesting something that tastes sweet.

Sweeteners are the biological equivalent of bait-and-switch. Taste the sweet, prepare the body to accept glucose by increasing insulin response, but then there's no glucose coming in in the blood stream. The downstream effect of this is that all that insulin with no sugar causes a minor glucose drop in the blood. In fact, due to this phenomenon, other research indicates that sweeteners causes people to be hungrier/eat more food than if they had simply consumed non-sugar-free food.

As always, there is no such thing as (sugar) free lunch.

tptacek10 minutes ago
This is an article of faith on the Internet, but I haven't seen a credible cite to back up a material, meaningful insulin response to the mere taste of sweetness. Worth remembering: insulin response to aspartame has always been a major research focus, like a day-one concern; it was tested fasted, unfasted, in great quantities and small, with food and in beverages.
tracker132 minutes ago
I'm pretty sure that the minor glycemic spikes after sweeteners (artificial, zero calorie) is because they're sweet it's a combination of some glucose mobilization and insulin response that shapes the results after use of artificial sweeteners. You're carrying a fair amount of glucose in the kidneys which is quickly available and glycogen the muscles that can be activated nearly as quickly. The impact from this on those that consume a lot of sweetened beverages over the course of a day may not be such a good thing and may even contribute to insulin resistance.

Aspartame is really inexpensive compared to real sugars... the sugar industry really doesn't like it and that was well before sucralose was an option.

My personal take is it's probably best to limit sweetened drinks to with meals, and to limit meals to 2-3 a day in a relatively narrow window of 6-10 hours.

pull_my_finger14 minutes ago
What sweeteners are you leaning toward these days? I try to stick to stevia/monk fruit/allulose, but if you're not preparing food yourself, it's hard to find things that aren't using the sugar alcohols, maltodextrin, etc
k4rli27 minutes ago
Still, why would you willingly manually add aspartame to your diet?

Especially since stevia exists I see no reason to put my health at risk with these. Personally I avoid sucralose and aspartame at all costs, regular sugar is much preferred in moderation.

tracker123 minutes ago
The sweetness in stevia is very different from sugar/hfcs... it has a flavor of its' own and is somewhat off-putting if you aren't used to it. Using a mix of sweeteners is often better overall flavor than any single sweetener (stevia, aspartame, ace-k, etc) on its' own.

I really wish Coke Life had better marketing and was more popular... It was a much smaller amount of real sugar combined with stevia for sweetness. It was lower calorie, but not zero, and probably a much better option than either full sugar or zero sugar.

freediddy33 minutes ago
When I drink a single can of Diet Coke or anything with aspartame, I get crippling stomach aches and then sudden diarrhea, all within about 2 hrs and very predictable. It's definitely not harmless. This doesn't happen to me with stevia or sucralose, and I know sucralose isn't good for your either.
jjice10 minutes ago
But a lot of people don't have that effect. So maybe it's not harmful for everyone.
tracker130 minutes ago
I have a similar negative response to legumes... but billions of people eat them without issue every day.
cael450about 2 hours ago
> Half of the world’s aspartame is made by Ajinomoto of Tokyo—the same company that first brought us MSG back in 1909.

There is nothing wrong with MSG either

jamal-kumarabout 1 hour ago
Crazy how most of the negative hype around that, total nonsense people have believed for decades now, started from some doctor making a joke paper in the New England Journal of Medicine because one of his other doctor friends was saying that orthopaedic surgeons were too stupid to get something published in there and bet like 10$ that to my recollection didn't even get paid (although this says 2024 I swear I remember reading about this 5-10 years ago):

But the story doesn’t end there. In 2024, a major twist emerged when a retired orthopedic surgeon and Colgate University trustee named Dr. Howard Steel contacted Colgate University professor Jennifer LeMesurier to make a shocking claim: He was the author of the letter. Goaded by a friend who had bet him $10 that he wasn’t smart enough to have an article published in The New England Journal of Medicine, Dr. Steel said he had invented the sensationalistic “strange syndrome” and the persona of Dr. Robert Ho Man Kwok to win the wager, LeMesurier recounted in a 2025 episode of This American Life. [1]

[1] https://www.self.com/story/what-is-msg-and-is-it-bad-for-you

cestithabout 2 hours ago
Indeed. It turns out that “MSG headaches” are just high sodium level headaches, either through dehydration, unbalanced electrolytes, elevated blood pressure or whatever else higher than normal sodium levels cause headaches. The same headache could be caused by salt. MSG actually makes recipes require less of other flavor ingredients, including salt. It’s also often found in dishes that still contain relatively massive amounts of salt.

So a little MSG to get your taste buds extra sensitive to other flavors is a net good. Just don’t eat too much sodium altogether, balance your electrolytes, and stay hydrated.

bennettnate5about 1 hour ago
I have a family member who has discovered through gradual process of elimination that she gets migraines from MSG, aspartame and yeast extract. "just sodium headaches" doesn't really apply to her case; simply chewing a piece of gum that has aspartame, or eating a piece of meat cooked with MSG in her salad is enough to trigger them. I agree in the general sense with your comment and the article that there's no widespread danger to public health from these additives, but it doesn't mean there aren't still individuals whose health gets messed up (including legitimate headache or migraine symptoms) by these additives.
ch4s337 minutes ago
> discovered through gradual process of elimination that she gets migraines from MSG

This is definitely not true. There is no biological pathway that can do this. MSG is nearly identical to the glutamic acid in other foods. If it were true they'd be unable to tolerate parmesan cheese, soy sauce, aged meats, tomatoes, mushrooms, and seaweed.

cestith15 minutes ago
Aspartame is also a trigger, but the fact that one person has multiple triggers doesn’t mean they are related at all.

Now you’re right that MSG is more than sodium. Sodium can be a headache trigger, including migraines. Glutamate is also a migraine trigger and a fairly common one. It doesn’t happen to be one for me. However, it is a neurotransmitter that is involved in pain signaling. It’s understandable how it could easily trigger a migraine or make the pain worse.

Some triggers for some people actually help other people with migraines, like caffeine. Migraines are such an incredibly complex topic that there are medical specialists for them. Mine can be fairly debilitating, but are rare enough I don’t qualify for most prescriptions. So I definitely understand how trigger management and symptom management are a big deal.

JCattheATM36 minutes ago
Sounds like an allergy.
kccqzyabout 1 hour ago
This effect is very obvious on me. I consistently get headaches when my sodium intake is too high. I don’t even use MSG in my own cooking but occasionally I add too much salt.
tracker127 minutes ago
Might consider a mix of electrolytes instead of just salt. I usually keep a container mixed with "snake juice" ratios for electrolytes and use that to season with instead of salt alone. I'll also sometimes put a pinch in my water, not nearly snake juice amounts, when I get a bit off and start getting leg cramps.
cubefoxabout 1 hour ago
> So a little MSG to get your taste buds extra sensitive to other flavors is a net good.

Salt and MSG are sometimes said to strengthen existing flavors, but I'm pretty sure they mainly just contribute their own unique taste: salty and umami.

(There could of course theoretically be some interactions with other taste receptors, similar to how sweet things make things taste much less bitter, e.g. cocoa, but that is a relatively specific effect and not one that acts as a general flavor enhancer.)

kdheiwns38 minutes ago
If you lick plain MSG, it tastes bitter. Add it to something very sweet and it just tastes bizarre. Sprinkle it on fried chicken and it tastes like you just dumped chicken gravy on it and pumped up the taste. It really does mainly amplify flavors.

And while MSG tastes very wrong in sweets, sweets generally always taste better with a bit of salt. Salt is its own flavor and a flavor amplifier.

ChrisRRabout 1 hour ago
There's not "nothing" wrong with MSG. But msg is fine in moderation, just like salt, fat and sugar are all fine in moderation too
tptacekabout 1 hour ago
If there's anything wrong with MSG that isn't simply due to sodium intake, I think it's unknown to science (at least in the sense that there's no theory about it with any wide uptake). MSG is also intensively studied and has a very similar mechanistic story to aspartame.
jiaosdjf23 minutes ago
The argument for MSG is that it's "naturally occurring in food anyway" and that it is a substitute for worse things - which sounds like the same argument for aspartame.

The bottom line is you don't know for sure and it's developed under commercial incentives.

It's probably ok carries just as much weight as you probably don't need it.

m4ck_about 2 hours ago
It's probably not great if you're drinking dozens of cans of sugar free soda every day.

All I really know is don't take health advice from influencers, especially if they're selling something, and don't take health advice from people who support deregulation (less industry transparency, oversight, and consequences won't make food or anything safer.)

jjice20 minutes ago
Maybe. I doubt most consumers of sugar free soda are drinking more than 4 (which is already a lot). I have to imagine that, like most things, most people consume them in moderation and have no ill effects.

That said, I have to imagine if you go from drinking ten sugared sodas a day to ten diet sodas a day, your life will change in a very positive way. That would be removing 1500 calories of pure sugar from your diet and that's gotta change people's lives.

tracker121 minutes ago
Not that I always follow it.. but my general advice is to keep sweetened drinks to with meals, and to reduce/eliminate snacking altogether. Sweetened drinks, even zero calorie, sugar free causes some glucose mobilization and insulin response... this insulin response likely contributes to insulin resistance over time.

That's just my not a doctor, observational, take on it.

tptacek13 minutes ago
There is no meaningful insulin response to noncaloric sweeteners.
ChrisRRabout 1 hour ago
I think most things aren't great if you have them in quantity. Variety in your diet is a good thing
sfjailbirdabout 1 hour ago
> dozens of cans of sugar free soda every day

In that case phosphoric acid is a bigger problem than aspartam will ever be

Cthulhu_about 2 hours ago
I want to say a "well duh", but it seems it's not common sense that too much of anything is generally bad for someone.

(For science, I'll be a willing test subject to test whether "too much money" is bad for me though)

Tyr42about 1 hour ago
Health outcomes of lottery winners suggest it's not great.
tptacekabout 2 hours ago
Why not?
WarmWashabout 2 hours ago
The larger the impact of the information you are sharing, the more clicks and follows you will get.

People trying to become content creators quickly realize that pointing out a 30cm rock headed towards Earth gets no money, err, attention. So they drop the 30cm part, call it a massive chunk of rock that will rip through the atmosphere, and suddenly they are getting much more money, sorry, attention.

This is what makes social media so depraved, any idiot who makes a good word salad can profit from being an idiot.

perching_aixabout 2 hours ago
Bias?
kakacikabout 1 hour ago
You have to be supremely dumb (or just a child) to take any sort of advice from influencers (I hate even that word with passion, and whom it represents I despise even more). They are out there to influence you, to change your opinions to ones suiting them and not you, and their wallets. Nothing more there. Their revenue stream is mostly paid ads or their merch (more ads towards their own profit).

Its the same as taking advice from usual ads - does anybody think its a good idea? Do you even need to say to anybody but a child or mentally impaired person - 'don't make your decision based on ads'?

rcxdudeabout 2 hours ago
Yeah, it's a frequent target of the naturalistic fallacy. But to me the most honest criticism of it is not liking the taste. Health-wise, almost certainly better than the sugar it's replacing.
mmastracabout 2 hours ago
I don't understand how prevalent Aspartame and other artificial sweeteners are when they taste so bad. They don't even taste sweet to me, just "wrong" in a way that permeates my entire mouth.

Is this a genetic thing?

RHSeegerabout 2 hours ago
It's just a preference thing. They taste bad _to you_, not to everyone.

Even among people that like artificial sweeteners, people have preferences. I prefer pink and my wife prefers yellow. When I'm forced to use yellow, I just can't enjoy the drink as much.

And, yes, it's a totally different kind of "sweet" for each of them. So if you're expecting "sugar sweet", it won't be that for the others.

moooo99about 2 hours ago
Maybe, while I can relate to this feeling when it comes to some sweeteners commonly used in baked goods, I genuinely habe a hard tile distinguishing between sugar and sweetener containing beverages at this lokng.
RHSeegerabout 2 hours ago
For root beer, I can't tell the difference. For colas, the difference is staggering to me.
vasacabout 2 hours ago
Acquired taste. Ten years ago, I switched from a sugar-based soft drink to one with Aspartame - it didn’t taste great at first. Now the sugary one tastes awful, while the Aspartame one tastes great ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
cwnythabout 2 hours ago
I've wondered this myself. The aftertaste on some of them is vile. The disappointing thing is that so many products use them when they reduce sugar, but sometimes I just want a reduced sugar product without any additional sweeteners. That seems hard to find these days.
hawk_about 2 hours ago
An important missed angle is the effect of artificial sweeteners on gut microbiome. They cause intestinal inflammation which is relevant for IBD sufferers. My take is that I don't miss out on much by being conservative with food, as we still don't understand these complex interactions well enough. What's the harm in sticking to a balanced whole diet of ingredients that were available to our ancestors 200years or more ago.
kibwenabout 2 hours ago
As the article mentions, this is a false dichotomy.

If you're an ordinary person driven to be healthy, drink water. Water is great. If you're already drinking water, you should absolutely not replace it with whatever bottled crap that Coke or Pepsi is peddling, be it "smart water" or otherwise.

But for people with sugar cravings bordering on addiction, which describes a depressingly enormous proportion of the population in the developed world, replacing sugary drinks with zero-calorie artificially-sweetened drinks can be a net health benefit. We know beyond a shadow of a doubt that obesity is bad for your health, and consumption of sugar water is a huge driver of obesity. Yes, you could be even healthier by drinking water instead; see above. But sugar is an addictive chemical (sugar withdrawl is, in fact, a thing), and not everyone can quit cold turkey.

perching_aixabout 2 hours ago
Does aspartame cause intestinal inflammation, or do artificial sweeteners sans aspartame cause intestinal inflammation?

Cause reading the blogpost, it explicitly calls out that most artificial sweeteners do not get broken down "at all", meaning their lifecycles are quite different. I'd expect this not to apply to aspartame as a result, and thus it not being a missed angle at all:

> Incidentally, this same logic does not apply to other artificial sweeteners which mostly aren’t broken down at all.

AlexandrBabout 2 hours ago
There's no harm to doing that if you can do it. But advice like "just eat healthy, natural food" is not really something most people can stick to long term. I know I can't!

When I find myself in a stressful situation the craving for sweets is very strong and artificial sweetners at least mean I have options that won't dump a bunch of calories/refined sugar into my body.

lormaynaabout 2 hours ago
In Italy we have an "indipendent research lab" that become really famous for a study that demonstrates that aspartame may cause cancer. The same institute published few years later a study about 5G emissions that may cause cancer.
GolfPopperabout 2 hours ago
It's a reliable migraine trigger for meyself, and my nephew. That makes it bad for us.
msephtonabout 2 hours ago
Similarly, it makes me dizzy/sick a little like travel sickness
cluckindanabout 2 hours ago
That’s probably because 10% of ingested aspartame breaks down into methanol.

Or, you might just be sensitive to phenylalanine.

1970-01-01about 2 hours ago
Fact 5 is a false fact. Taking facts 1-4 into consideration with the (0th?) fact that it is considered the most studied ingredient is enough evidence. This is how scientists come to a consensus. Going beyond that is obscene to science.
cestithabout 1 hour ago
The one we’re trying to avoid the most in my household is sucralose. Genotoxicity and upregulating inflammation and oxidative stress are bad things. Accumulating unchanged in the environment and resisting biodegradation is a bad thing. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC12251854/
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pfdietzabout 2 hours ago
Sucralose-6-acetate, however, an impurity found in sucralose and produced in vivo from sucralose, is genotoxic.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37246822/

I would avoid sucralose. I have a suspicion it may be responsible for the observed increase in colon cancer in younger age groups.

gadflyinyoureyeabout 2 hours ago
Did we just start adding this chemical in the ast five years? I can think of any other widespread roll out of a new technology in the same period.
pfdietzabout 2 hours ago
The increase is cancers in younger age groups was noticed earlier than that, and the cancers can't be expected to occur instantly upon exposure to a carcinogen.
moooo99about 2 hours ago
Where does the confidence that it is due to sweeteners come from? This isn‘t about your comment in particular, more of a general observation.

Many people instinctively attribute this rise in colon cancer to diet products, almost pretending as if it is the only thing that has meaningfully changed over the past 40 years or so. Others like to point to changing consumption habits in people drinking more sugary beverages.

It is almost as if everyone is projecting their personal believes into this. But the truth seems frustratingly simple: we really just do not know yet

nicole_expressabout 2 hours ago
Honestly I believe there's a puritan streak in the aspartame controversy; you don't deserve to experience sweet taste if you're trying to avoid sugar, you need to suffer for your diet, and it's unfair to have a zero-calorie soda that tastes good.

I could be convinced otherwise by data, but when I'm seeing decades of attempts to prove it's dangerous and none actually pan out, I'm not going to feel bad about drinking a few diet cokes a day.

mapt41 minutes ago
Nothing else explains the observed cultural confidence in putative harm than this "puritan streak", combined with sugar industry lobbying. It's gotten other sweeteners like cyclamate and saccharine banned (or voluntarily withdrawn pending a ban) over the years. The same comments are repeated about every new sweetener coming on the market.
Lercabout 1 hour ago
I don't drink things with Aspartame because it makes me feel queasy. I don't know of any mechanism that causes that effect. Occasionally I encounter something that I would not have expected to contain Aspartame that I notice the feeling before I have even considered the possibility that it might be present. I take that as a sign that it is not psychological.
herbstabout 1 hour ago
Same here. Very little amounts already give me a weird tummy feel. A normal amount (ex. Half a can) gets my tummy turned around for a few hours.
goolzabout 1 hour ago
Even so, it has a weird aftertaste that lingers on the palette. All sugar-free elixirs I have found to be subpar.
malfistabout 1 hour ago
Some people are super tasters and they'll always have that problem. But most people stop noticing the aftertaste after a week or two of regular consumption. But I agree, when I started sugar free that aftertaste was nasty.

Now, the aftertaste of sweetened drinks is nasty, the lingering coy sweetness is vile.

happygreybananaabout 1 hour ago
There's also an ever-escalating sweetness issue. When fresh fruit was plenty sweet enough and you get used to this level of sweetness, everything else seems to taste pretty bland. If this becomes the normal (I suspect it kind of has), everything gets sweetened; yogurts, crackers, bread, etc. The method those things get sweetened could be aspartame, but many will not be.
jiaosdjf14 minutes ago
Fresh fruit has gone through selective breeding over the decades to increase sweetness. This was discovered by a zoo in Australia IIRC, when it was noticed that animal dental issues had increased despite diets remaining the same over a long period.

Yes it is ever-escalating, I found that after weaning myself off sweetness for a while, when I did try a sweetened product like a typical piece of chocolate it tasted sickly sweet and unappealing.

shlantabout 1 hour ago
I have tried multiple times to find this article after reading it a year or so ago ! thanks for sharing again
misthopabout 2 hours ago
It might not be bad for you, but it tastes like crap
jiaosdjfabout 1 hour ago
So basically there's no scientific consensus either way, there's no tradition of using it and there are extreme commercial incentives for harm so it's a no from me
latchabout 1 hour ago
Not sure how you get to that conclusion from the article when it ends with the conclusion from 5 health agencies that it's safe (and then more references from the scientific community that it's safe).
jiaosdjf10 minutes ago
What in your view is the single strongest scientific conclusion supporting your statement that "it's safe"?
shlantabout 1 hour ago
> So basically there's no scientific consensus either way

"The current science says that the health impact of aspartame is essentially zero. Every credible body that has studied this question has reached the same conclusion."

Did you even read the article?

jiaosdjf31 minutes ago
"While informative, this does not prove aspartame is safe"

There is no such thing as "it's just a normal chemical". Sugar is "just a normal chemical" that doesn't mean refining it and injecting it into products with a commercial incentive to habit form hasn't helped create a health crisis

paulinho1about 1 hour ago
I think it's just human nature. We assume anything good has to have a catch. Diet Coke feels like that to me
fabioyyabout 2 hours ago
migraine trigger for me too
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swiftcoderabout 2 hours ago
> The history of aspartame and the FDA is contentious and sort of infuriating

Is it? They've been dealing with conspiracy theorists on this topic for more than half a century (it was initially approved as a tabletop sweetener back in 1974), including extensive public hearings in the 1980s. There is no more thoroughly studied or litigated food additive in the department's history.

zapharabout 1 hour ago
I don't like aspartame because it's sickeningly sweet. I could care less if it's healthy or not.
bronlundabout 2 hours ago
It is bad. Don't belive the hype.

Just the simple fact that it has a sweet taste, but contains no sugar, disturbs the body's natural production of insulin.