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#matter#mond#dark#gravity#newtonian#relativity#galaxies#mercury#explain#something

Discussion (43 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

rappatic•32 minutes ago
When I see dark matter in the news I'm always reminded of the story of Vulcan.

In the 1800s, detailed observations of the planet Mercury showed that its orbit was slightly different than Newtonian mechanics predicted-- a difference of about 43 arcseconds per century. The study was rigorous enough to rule out any observation errors.

Le Verrier, the astronomer who made these observations, wondered how to explain the difference. A decade earlier, he had noticed a similar irregularity in the orbit of Uranus, which led to the discovery of Neptune, whose gravity caused these perturbations. So Le Verrier reasoned that something similar must be going on for Mercury, and he posited the existence of Vulcan, a tiny planet close to the Sun.

Many attempts were made for decades to observe Vulcan. It was even included on some maps of the Solar System at the time (https://www.loc.gov/resource/g3180.ct003790). But it was never conclusively observed.

When Einstein published his theory of relativity in 1915, the mystery of Mercury's orbit was finally explained-- Newtonian mechanics were simply incomplete, and the irregularity of Mercury's orbit was due to relativistic effects.

Could it be that something similar is happening today? Observations of gravity on galactic scales doesn't quite align with what relativity would predict, so we use dark matter to fill the gaps. We've tried for decades to detect dark matter, with no dice. Is our theory of gravity simply incomplete?

MOND may not be the solution, but I'm still skeptical about dark matter.

GuB-42•about 3 hours ago
If you follow Sabine Hossenfelder's channel, she has a MONDOmeter. With MOND (modified Newtonian gravity) on one side and dark matter on the other side.

As new papers come out the needle goes back and forth, and I guess that she will make a new video if she hasn't already, with the needle moving one step towards dark matter.

I find it interesting how it doesn't seem to settle. Dark matter is still the favorite, but there is a lot of back and forth between "MOND is dead" and "we found new stuff we couldn't explain with dark matter, but it matches MOND predictions".

cowl•about 2 hours ago
It's funny how for MOND we cant accept that it has some unknowns yet but we are more than willing to accept the FULL UNKNOWN Dark Matter. it's easy. put "Dark" in front of something and you don't have to explain it at all, no matter that something else explains at least 60-70% instead of 0.
PaulHoule•about 3 hours ago
MOND does amazingly well at galactic rotation curves, less well at anything else. If you think it started with Vera Rubin in 1966 MOND seems natural, but if you know that it started with Fritz Zwicky in 1933 than dark matter is easier to believe.
elashri•about 3 hours ago
MOND is dead is a true statement if we say MOND is dead as a general theory of gravity. It does not mean is does not have its success with explaining galactic rotation curves but failing at mostly everything else.
cwmma•about 3 hours ago
my understanding is that there are a few MOND champions who are still holding on to the idea while everyone else has moved on.
ReptileMan•about 3 hours ago
Once I joked that a lot of things in the universe make sense if you view it as a "simulation with optimizations like lazy loading".
sebzim4500•about 3 hours ago
Yeah until you get to quantum computing and then it seems as if the universe is doing enormously more work than you would think necessary.
cvoss•about 3 hours ago
This comment and GP are two of the most concise and punchy descriptions I've ever heard of some of the deepest aspects of modern physics. On the one hand we have principles of locality and finite propagation speed, which limit the computational work to a small neighborhood, and on the other hand we have principles of non-locality and superposition, which cause the computation to explode as it swallows up potentially everything and every possible thing.
ReptileMan•about 3 hours ago
But only if someone observes it. The act of observation forces reality into existence.
nathan_compton•about 3 hours ago
Everything we don't understand we conceptualize using the most similar tools which we do have command over.
Lvl999Noob•about 3 hours ago
I thought newtonian gravity was already proven to be inaccurate with Einstein's Special Relativity (or General Relativity?) giving better results on cosmic scales (basically analogous to an approximation vs an exact formula)?
magicalhippo•about 3 hours ago
General Relativity reduces to Newtonian gravity as the curvature goes to zero, that is when you're very far away from objects relative to their masses, for slow non-relativistic objects like stars and galaxies.

Galaxies are typically so far away from another they're almost like point sources to each other, hence Newtonian gravity explains their motion very well.

However, inside galaxies things do not behave as expected, as stars in almost all the galaxies we've measured does not move like Newtonian (nor GR) behaves based on the matter in the galaxy we see. One alternative to the mainstream theories of dark matter is to modify Newtonian gravity, called MOND.

This work tested if MOND fit the motion of galaxies in galaxy clusters. They found it did not.

MOND already does not explain other phenomena that dark matter can so it's not terribly surprising. Here[1] is a nice accessible talk going through all the evidence for dark matter.

But it is technically a possibility that there's two things are going on, something MOND-like as well as dark matter, so worth checking.

[1]: https://pirsa.org/26030070

GuB-42•about 3 hours ago
At these scales (entire galaxies, very weak forces), it doesn't make a significant difference.

There are ways of adapting MOND to match general relativity, should it turn to be correct at explaining what it is supposed to explain (like the movement of galaxies).

DonaldFisk•about 3 hours ago
General Relativity. It explained the anomaly in the precession of Mercury's perihelion, and the bending of starlight by the Sun (double the value predicted by Newton's law).

The test here is for the inverse square law of gravity. The rival theory in this case isn't GR, but MOND: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modified_Newtonian_dynamics

DivingForGold•about 2 hours ago
just another nag screen ...