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#permacomputing#lot#hardware#anti#computing#causes#little#capitalist#tech#resilient

Discussion (29 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

jl6•about 1 hour ago
There’s a lot to love about more mindful and resilient and ecological use of computing, but I wish they would build a consensus around that instead of bolting on extra politics. It’s a symptom of polarization… you can’t have independent causes, they have to align to a bunch of other causes too, each one taking a slice off your support base until you’re left with the tiny, powerless intersection that already agrees with you. It’s the self-torpedoing recipe that makes the omnicause so impotent.
stackghost•36 minutes ago
Consider that the venn diagram of "people likely to be negatively impacted by climate change" and "people who belong to historically marginized or discriminated groups" has a lot of overlap. It's little wonder to me why permacomputing, having its roots in environmentalism, attracts people who spend a lot of time and energy on social justice causes.

But still: It's okay to enjoy the mindful and resilient and ecological aspects and not enjoy some other aspect.

tolerance•3 minutes ago
I think the issue being highlighted here is how polarizing causes are advanced and detract from a reasonable one that is supposed to be the pith of an organization.

> It's okay to enjoy the mindful and resilient and ecological aspects and not enjoy some other aspect.

I don't object to this in the most general sense. But I also think that a little tact can go a long way from the organization's side to anticipate where the public can't exercise it on their own.

zozbot234•3 minutes ago
There's strong first-principles reasons to think that left-wing radical politics does a significant disservice to historically marginalized or discriminated groups. Historically the proper and most effective response to maginalization and discrimination was developing strong, enduring social ties (arguably, these social ties are what defines a "group" to begin with, especially on very long-run, even generational timescales), which in practice is now coded as a "right wing" value.
knuppar•27 minutes ago
This sounds like a fence sitter take. Everything is political and not acknowledging that is part of the problem.
louismerlin•about 3 hours ago
I have been involved in Berlin’s permacomputing scene for a few years now, and have met a lot of very cool people through that. Can highly recommend you get involved in your local meetups or start your own !

https://permacomputing.net/Community/

HerbManic•about 1 hour ago
I have argued for a long time that Permacomputing will be seen as the missing part of the Free Software movement. What use is free software long term if you do not have hardware you can control, maintain and repair easily? This will mean a sacrifice in performance and functionality but gaining control and longevity.

With things like Secureboot, TPM modules and ever increasing demands to lock down systems, there is the risk that even libre software will be snuffed out. While not those technologies explicitly, similar less friendly things may come up in future. And when that happens, being beholden to billion dollar hardware companies won't seem so friendly. A little alarmist, but I didn't think we would be were we are today as it is.

One interesting area is about how to make software that is not hardware locked but easy enough to implement with very little work involved.

This is where projects such as UXN come in. https://100r.co/site/uxn.html

A system spec that is only 32 instructions deep, something that a single person could implement in less than a week. Essentially the hardest part is building the hardware Abstraction Layer. It wouldn't be efficient but it is very portable and thus makes it resilient to any future possible shocks.

pfortuny•25 minutes ago
This project appears here from time to time and each and every time I am amazed. Thanks for sharing it.
ps3udo•about 1 hour ago
zelon88•21 minutes ago
I think an important step is to acknowledge when and where to implement technology in the first place.

Arguably the environmental benefit of an American farm replacing a 10 year old tractor with an electric model isn't nearly as good for the environment as a farm in India replacing a 70 year old tractor that leaks gallons of oil per month with a 50 year old tractor that doesn't.

Capitalists don't understand how to apply cost-to-benefit ratios to anything outside themselves. There is no global entity making sure resources are spent responsibly or equitably at scale.

lynx97•about 2 hours ago
from permacomputing.net:

... an anti-capitalist political project. ... anarchism ... intersectional feminism ...

No, thanks. I thought it was a tech project. Apparently not.

HerbManic•42 minutes ago
I get why you wouldn't see this as inviting.

But we need to merge the humanities with technology because if both sides ignore the other than both sides will blindly walk into the worst out comes of the other side.

colechristensen•8 minutes ago
This isn't merging the humanities with tech, it's making "being against stuff" your whole personality and fighting for whatever set of causes is trendy.
jochem9•about 2 hours ago
One does not rule out the other. In the end it's nerds messing with hardware.

Lots of computer culture is rooted in anarchism, anti-capitalism and a fight for fairness. E.g. early internet culture, the open source community.

Imo it's very nice to see explicit anti-capitalist movements within tech, because the other side of tech is so completely over the top capitalist.

lynx97•about 1 hour ago
anti-capitalism, while a bit strange a lable, is something I can sympathize with. But once we are talking anarchism and (intersectional) feminism in a computing context, I am definitely out. I miss the time when computing was a lot less political. It was nice hacking on projects without having to identify with something totally unrelated, or being forced to support idiologies just to be a part of it.
boudin•about 1 hour ago
The web originally was way closer to anarchism and I really miss that. It was a cluster of self-organising communities, little to no intervention from the state, a lot was not profit driven. Same with IRC.
tolerance•about 1 hour ago
> I miss the time when computing was a lot less political.

Whether such a time ever existed is debatable.

Here's a test. Define the period that you're imagining. Then investigate this period as a point in the history of computing with its broader sociopolitical contexts.

Somewhere in the midst of that milieu I reckon or the politics you're likely to be fond to mix with your tech projects.

tenuousemphasis•about 1 hour ago
If you at all understood any of those three things you would know that they are all closely related.
atoav•27 minutes ago
IMO it depends very much on how those positions are being forced on those attending. Since this is about permacomputing I suspect not all that much.

In my experience these self-given-labels just express the views of some founding members and are often used to clarify who they do not want (capitalist, misogynist authoritarians) and who is welcome (left leaning people, women, people who know how to treat women, people who can respect flat hierarchies).

I find it a bit edgy to self label an encouraging like that, instead of explaining the meat of it (we are anticapitalist, because..., we are feminist, so women are welcome, we are anarchist, so our organization is structured with a flat hierarchy). Since it is an anarchist space, that is anti-authoritarian you probably won't find much indoctrination.

tolerance•about 2 hours ago
> In the end it's nerds messing with hardware.

Am I being lazy or does this imply that all (or true) nerds are anarchist anti-capitalist feminists.

t-3•about 1 hour ago
No. Some $x do $y does not imply that all/most/many/true $x do $y. It implies that some $x do $y.
boomlinde•about 1 hour ago
Yes, you're being lazy
antics9•about 2 hours ago
On what page did you find that?
lynx97•about 2 hours ago
Second paragraph on the front page: https://permacomputing.net