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Discussion (76 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

BeetleBabout 2 hours ago
This could be understandable if some rationale was provided, but it's worse than that:

> Neither agency has publicly issued new formal guidance describing these requirements. Instead, officials are informing grantees individually, leaving researchers confused and concerned.

They've not even made it official. They're just randomly flagging.

epistasisabout 2 hours ago
This is a very common thing for corrupt governments. No rules are clear, so that those at the top can dictate whatever they want whenever they want. Which means that the only safe route is to always be on very very good terms with leadership.

Very sad to see the US fall away from the rule of law, into kleptocracy.

See also the way that grants are now being distributed at NCI and NSF. Only very large grants for many many years, to reward those who are in the favored status, and kill those who are disfavored. Decision making is random and capricious, just be sure to bribe those at the top with whatever favors you can.

nielsbot3 minutes ago
> always be on very very good terms with leadership

Not a guarantee either.. just a hope

gwerbin43 minutes ago
To be fair, this has been a long time coming, and a lot of forces have been committed over decades to finally make this kind of thing possible. You're just seeing the next phase of the plan unfolding.
jorblumesea40 minutes ago
The US is trending towards a Russian style oligarchy and these latest moves are just one of a wider pattern of trying to suppress academia, freedom of speech, personal freedoms.
nickffabout 1 hour ago
This is also very foreseeable for an administrative state, and this slippery slope has been predicted for over a century. Rule by administrators (or bureaucrats) is just as opaque/unaccountable/corrupt, and as the extent of their power grew, it was inevitable that the political leadership would exploit the power (as has already happened many times before). It seems like nobody (at least on the liberal end of the spectrum) really cared about the arbitrary use of power when it was mostly left-liberals making the choices.

The way to fix this is to reduce the power of the administrative state, not to just complain about Trump, but I have little hope of a real solution.

bodiekane18 minutes ago
Where do you imagine the power goes when you've taken it away from "the administrative state"?

I can totally understand an argument that says a certain administrative function was not working well and needed to be fixed. But if you're just suggesting destroying these institutions, what fills that power vacuum other than the far worse situation we're seeing unfolding now?

rightbyteabout 1 hour ago
> Rule by administrators (or bureaucrats) is just as opaque/unaccountable/corrupt

I don't agree. The division of power is most likely preferable. Otherwise the politician also become the beurocrat but way more arbitrary.

sdenton4about 1 hour ago
Going for whataboutism in the same week trump establishes a $2B find to pay off his cronies and tries to permanently exempt himself from taxes is laughable.
mothballedabout 1 hour ago
NCI and NSF recipients getting a taste of what EPA, DEA and ATF was doing to the plebs all along with random "interpretations" and bad-faith presentations of them to judge and jury. Maybe that whole "the academics and bureaucrats are so smart we totally need to cede power from congress to the executive" wasn't such a bright idea after all.

Of course, it's totally lost on the academic-bureaucratic class that the anti-intellectuals wouldn't hesitate to cut off their nose to spite their face by electing a president that would turn around and surprise pikachu the academics with the very machine they had helped build. Now that academics are losing their grips within the bureaucratic apparatus, suddenly they are deciding to rethink their strategy -- but it's not a coming to Jesus moment, but rather just a reactionary response.

somenameforme39 minutes ago
The article mentions, oddly enough at literally the very bottom, that one of the main laws being used is the 'Wolf Amendment' [1], passed in 2011. It's what prevented Chinese from working on the ISS and arguably is why China now has its own space station. It's an extremely dumb law that's been passed and reauthorized repeatedly by every single administration and Congress since Obama who it was passed under.

Just quoting Wiki since it's quite succinct and accurate on this: "[The Wolf Amendment] prohibits the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) from using government funds to engage in direct, bilateral cooperation with the Chinese government and China-affiliated organizations from its activities without explicit authorization from the Federal Bureau of Investigation and Congress."

For another consequence of this law, when China relatively recently carried out a sample return from the Moon, they sought to share the resultant rocks/material with countries worldwide, much like NASA did in the 60s. Except Americans couldn't accept them, at least not without jumping through a million hoops first, due to this law. It's one of the ever more frequent 'I'm going to punch myself in the face because I don't like you' acts by governments.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_Amendment

munk-aabout 2 hours ago
Unclear arbitrary rules are the best way to rapidly induce a chilling effect.

If the enemy is the science happening then a lack of clarity is a highly effective tactic.

platinumradabout 2 hours ago
I genuinely don't understand how the titans of industry who support the Republican party don't understand that science is the foundation on which their entire fortunes are built.
epistasisabout 2 hours ago
Their fortunes are already built. They have shifted into defensive posture. They don't care about enabling more people to do discovery, that actually puts their position at great risk of disruption. What they want is to have very little innovation, and be able to capture the innovation that squeaks through.
dekhnabout 2 hours ago
I imagine some of them think that the industrial sector could replace academic sector for foundational scientific researcher ("the free market solves all known problems"). I imagine others believe we are headed for a huge crash that affects the whole world, in a way that having a large academic scientific establishment will not help. Just go live in a bunker in NZ until society rebuilds itself, or whatever (Altman). I suspect a few of the folks are just looney, and don't think rationally (Thiel).
root_axis5 minutes ago
That's just the political division. Scientists and academic types tend to lean left, the republicans are a right leaning party so they oppose them. It's not even a Trump thing, it's been like this for decades, though Trump is obviously more aggressive than previous Republican leaders.
sowbugabout 1 hour ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

Step 1. Exploit the commons.

Step 2. Shut the door.

jmalickiabout 2 hours ago
It benefited them in the past, that allowed them to build up their fortunes. Bill Gates, for example, is now a big holder of farmland. Science allows others to build up fortunes that challenge theirs, and hurts the stasis in which they become gilded aristocracy.

Lowering their taxes while burning everything to the ground benefits them now.

linguaeabout 2 hours ago
In my opinion, it’s been a problem for a long time. Sure, the titans of industry are very interested in the profitable applications of science, but they are generally less interested in investing in science, let alone the science itself. Science is seen as a cost center, and research is inherently risky. Even in the glory days of Bell Labs and Xerox PARC, both were backed by monopolies (the Bell System was the phone monopoly, and Xerox had patents in xerography). The former was subject to special government rules due to AT&T’s constant anti-trust troubles, and the latter’s culture was heavily influenced by ARPA due to ex-ARPA people like Bob Taylor.

I am reminded by this quote from an email exchange between Bret Taylor and Alan Kay, published in 2017:

“As I pointed out in a previous email, Engelbart couldn't get funding from the very people who made fortunes from his inventions.

“It strikes me that many of the tech billionaires have already gotten their "upside" many times over from people like Engelbart and other researchers who were supported by ARPA, Parc, ONR, etc. Why would they insist on more upside, and that their money should be an "investment"? That isn't how the great inventions and fundamental technologies were created that eventually gave rise to the wealth that they tapped into after the fact.

“It would be really worth the while of people who do want to make money -- they think in terms of millions and billions -- to understand how the trillions -- those 3 and 4 extra zeros came about that they have tapped into. And to support that process.”

https://worrydream.com/2017-12-30-alan/

The titans of industry not understanding the importance of science beyond its profitable applications doesn’t surprise me at all.

groundzeros2015about 2 hours ago
Because science is an abstraction for ann incredibly wide range of human activity some of which benefits industrial applications and some that doesn’t.
barbazooabout 1 hour ago
But it isn't required in order for them to get richer at this point.
NooneAtAll3about 1 hour ago
if you "genuinely" want to understand, start considering the opposite - what is the easiest way to defend policy like this?

"science with outside helps the other side" - done.

Current administration sees US as losing its positions, so the main answer is to close the leaks that feed its opponents with US effort

rolphabout 1 hour ago
heres a bit of a fringe view, from me, and others.

governments need influence, and yellow the truth,so as to manage the overall situation, thats a first assumption.

now we see a lot of actions that in the end seemlike footgunning, basically derailing the foundations of civilization.

perhaps this is not megalomania, greed, or sickness.

perhaps, as is often portrayed in popular scifi, we are all doomed to face a terrible challange, there are only few very closed mouth individuals that absolutely know. [remember this is a fringe conspiracy hypothesis]

we are being distracted and kept on the dark about impending catastrophe,so as to stave off absolute chaos,little hope of influencing anyone except by overwhelming show of force. perhaps "they" know its a matter of years, not decades until we experience that thing that suddenly, seemingly cyclically clears the board and the whole assembly begins again from square 2,or 3,not quite square one. [Re fringe;conspiracy]

"they" are behaving in an all bets are off manner, keeping thier hand hidden, playing an endgame rather than making a benign effort.

watwutabout 2 hours ago
They already have that fortune. So, they dont care and dont have to care. Moreover, someone else using science to create fortune is just another competitor and a threat to said fortune.
rapiz24 minutes ago
US seems to be learning from China very quick. Congrats.
Danox9 minutes ago
The USA isn’t learning from China. The USA is learning from Russia…
gwbas1cabout 1 hour ago
b00ty4breakfast35 minutes ago
I can't help but think that there is a deliberate effort to remove the US from it's position in the global geopolitical arena. And not merely as a by-product of policy decisions but specifically to damage the American reputation.
conception24 minutes ago
daveguy13 minutes ago
Dumpty's loyalty is with whoever will give him the most money and power as a person. Always has been.
nekzn13 minutes ago
It’s called ZOG.
SubiculumCodeabout 2 hours ago
"In response to Inside Higher Ed’s questions about Science’s reporting, an NIH spokesperson emailed a statement Thursday that referenced just one set of grant programs: the Institutional Development Award (IDeA). NIH’s website says the awards go to Puerto Rico and 23 states that “historically have had low levels of NIH funding."

"The recent update to IDeA grantees was a clarification of longstanding policy, not a new directive,” the spokesperson said. “IDeA program funding has always been restricted to U.S.-based institutions and entities, with foreign institutions, non-domestic components of U.S. organizations, and all foreign components explicitly prohibited. This reflects Congress’s intent that IDeA funds be used exclusively for research capacity building within the United States—and specifically within eligible IDeA states and territories. NIH’s statement didn’t mention any other grant programs or answer multiple written questions.” [1]

[1] https://www.insidehighered.com/news/quick-takes/2026/05/22/r...

SubiculumCodeabout 1 hour ago
I do not know yet if this was NIH tricky wording to insidehighered.com, or if it is really restricted to this one small program.

edit: that said, from my experience, and some reporting, foreign contracts (e.g. a foreign collaborating researcher) have been regularly denied in the new NIH.

gcanyonabout 1 hour ago
> a clarification of longstanding policy, not a new directive

I call BS.

petcatabout 2 hours ago
The article says that these restrictions on research with a "foreign component" have been in place since at least 2003 but have only recently been clarified to include the researchers themselves.

It's actually more surprising to me that NIH and NASA research co-authored by non-Americans was supposedly not requiring scrutiny under the "foreign component" rules before this.

matthewdgreenabout 2 hours ago
Many graduate students, faculty and post-docs are foreign citizens. So banning them from conducting research could potentially shut down big research projects. It is not surprising to me that the NIH and other funding agencies didn't want to do this. (It is also unsurprising to me that the current administration would have few qualms about disrupting research: we know they don't care, ask the cancer studies that had to be saved with private Foundation funding last year.)

Before you start throwing disruptive rules at projects, you generally want to know that there is a critical security concern for that specific work. Most research just gets published a few months later, so foreign interests can just read it in a journal and download the dataset.

wyldberry30 minutes ago
I don't have great sources on hand, this is just coming from a career situated in or adjacent to protecting research and IP from espionage. As the national labs and prime defense contractors got exceptional at defending their networks, this pushed state actors into attempting espionage at the university level.

It's a lot easier to get access to underpaid graduate students, fresh post-docs, etc who are doing the heavy researching lift day-to-day work. You have way more tools in your HUMINT arsenal with this population. Sometimes research has natsec implications even though it is not in pre-class or classified status.

A famous example of this is how the US created it's stealth technology initially.

"The foundation for a science-based approach to the development of stealth aircraft was laid by Petr Ufimtsev, a Soviet physicist. In 1962, Sovietskoye Radio publishing house issued his book Method of Edge Waves in the Physical Theory of Diffraction that described the mathematical rationale for the development of stealth vehicles.

In the USSR, these ideas did not go any further, however, the Americans were very enthusiastic about them. Ufimtsev’s physical theory of diffraction has become, they say, the cornerstone of a breakthrough in the stealth technology. In the 1970s, the work was started in the USA on the basis of this knowledge as a result of which breakthrough stealth aircraft − Lockheed F-117 fighter and Northrop B-2 strategic bomber – have been produced."

https://rostec.ru/en/media/news/visible-invisible-stealth-te...

yread36 minutes ago
I heard NIH grantees had to always jump through extra hoops when hiring foreign companies or purchasing foreign products
gcanyonabout 1 hour ago
If it was their actual goal to destroy the US leadership role in research worldwide, they couldn't do more than they are.
Danox7 minutes ago
Unfortunately, we are seeing the decline of the USA. The rest of the world is going to move on without us.
Avicebronabout 2 hours ago
It's interesting after reading briefly about this, but I think previously NIH funding was more permissive to directly awarding funds to foreign nationals/groups. But interestingly enough, China doesn't do the same for say foreign researchers trying to collaborate with chinese researchers. (Unless you already live there etc etc). So it was indeed asymmetrical.
neuronexmachinaabout 1 hour ago
Do you have a reference for that? At least based on this, it seems like China's trying to increase collaboration and funding for joint research projects with non-Chinese researchers:

* https://www.nsfc.gov.cn/english/site_1/international/D2/2018...

* https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20260107-overseas-scho...

mnky9800nabout 2 hours ago
I wonder when the trump administration will ever decide if it wants to Be isolationist or global imperialist.
Tangurena26 minutes ago
He changes his mind all the time. No decision will ever be final. It will change depending on what satisfies his whims at that very moment.
loudmaxabout 1 hour ago
Being isolationist or global imperialist implies articulating different strategies and values.

This is an administration that has neither of those.

jolmgabout 2 hours ago
They're not mutually exclusive
bilbo0s37 minutes ago
This.

The question is what serves their interests at the time? Whatever serves their interests at a given time, well, that’s what they believe at that time. That will have no bearing on what they believe in the future.

unethical_banabout 2 hours ago
It's a decent bet that they are truly foolish. I've said this before. If the administration isn't acting as agents of a hostile nation trying to destroy America from within and scuttle its global leadership, they're doing a great job acting like it.

Short of them just turning a nuke on a large city, I can't think of better ways to harm America without fomenting an actual uprising than what they're doing to us today.

jshierabout 2 hours ago
Autarky requires imperialism to grab the resources needed to be fully isolationist. So it's really both, until they hit the tipping point to become fully isolated. But this is something else. This is just the anti-science ignorentsia coming together with the xenophobic white supremacists to screw America. They say Trump can't bring people together, but he's done a great job of uniting all the worst people in the country.
sega_saiabout 1 hour ago
The country elects an autocrat who fires experts and puts stooges in positions of power. Surprise-surprise that leads to idiotic policies, some of them mimicking the best hits of Soviet Union.
jsrcoutabout 1 hour ago
Oh, absolutely. For instance I never thought Lysenkoism would happen again, but the conditions are ripe for it.
kittikittiabout 2 hours ago
I knew that most research had ties to government funding but it was only recently that I realized the scale of it. Along with the pullback of any government funding remotely resembling DEI, policies like the one described in the article wouldn't decimate research from my previous understanding. In terms of influence, it's now clear to me that the government controls anywhere between 75 to 99% of academic research. I feel foolish for believing all the details in subsequent papers from the research about why their work is necessary or important. It turns out, all of it is because the government requested it and really nothing else.
convolvatronabout 1 hour ago
that's not entirely true, it is to some degree. by convention there have been a few buffer layers between actual grant allocation and naked politics. funding gets allocated to someplace like NSF, NIH, ONR or DARPA. Those organizations have directorates or area concentrations. Each directorate has a program manager (the terms vary based on org) who puts out request for proposals (grant applications).

The PMs are generally chosen from the sciences, and are responsible for authoring RFPs that meet strategic goals, and negotiate with the PIs (grant recipients) about terms and sizes and such.

So there are really two political realms, above the funding agency, and underneath, and its entire function is reconcile those worlds in a pretty vague way with a certain amount of autonomy given to the PM.

This isn't 100% great, but if you have good PM, some good science does get funding. While this seems like a lot of machinery, if you short circuit all of it, and have the presidents direct flunkies make funding decisions, that basically means that almost no real science gets done.

josefritzishereabout 2 hours ago
Xenophobia makes for poor science.
kahrlabout 2 hours ago
Well, we can't have have the non indoctrinated taking away our freedom. USA USA USA.
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WaitWaitWhaabout 2 hours ago
Can we take a step back and review the article and the underlying information? I am very much against any arbitrary and often unnecessary government interference. I also publish.

Lot's of weasel words.

This is not unprecedented. Restrictions tied to foreign collaboration are not new, NIH has done this as far back as 2018 if I recall. Yes, foreign research restrictions have escalated recently.

We have no official statement for either agencies. Collaborating on sensitive or classified material with identified FOCI coauthors is and always have been highly scrutinized activity. Title 32 CFR 117.11 is old. It goes back as far as DoD 5220.22-M in the '90s.

NISPM-33 Office of Science and Technology Policy efforts have been around since 2018 too or so (i am sooo old :/).

This appears to be a continuation of escalation of research-security, rather than a wholly unprecedented break from prior policy.

gwbas1cabout 1 hour ago
This happens when a country is preparing to go to war. It's what happened with nuclear research around the start of the Manhattan project.
dghlsakjgabout 1 hour ago
The US is currently at war by all definitions except a declaration of war.
BeetleB32 minutes ago
So, medical research (NIH grants) is in preparation for going to war? Is the US planning on using biological agents?