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Analyzed from 1763 words in the discussion.

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#snake#oil#computer#love#doesn#llms#technology#lot#sold#something

Discussion (54 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

suyavuz•about 1 hour ago
I still like the computer itself. Breaking something, poking at it, fixing it, and then it suddenly works. The hard part now is liking the industry around it.
aykutseker•about 1 hour ago
The machine is still fun.

It's the five layers of product growth between you and the machine that get tiring.

fasterik•about 2 hours ago
I love computers too, but it doesn't resonate with me when people call AI "snake oil." The comparison suggests that the thing doesn't do what it's marketed to do. AI does more or less what it's marketed to do, sometimes badly.

I still write code by hand. But LLMs have been a legitimately useful tool when I've wanted to dig into a new field like computer graphics, theoretical physics, or numerical analysis. Or even just asking the LLM to write a piece of code and learning from its output. I think it makes me a better programmer because I can bootstrap the knowledge needed for a new project much faster and spend more time programming.

drchickensalad•about 2 hours ago
> The comparison suggests that the thing doesn't do what it's marketed to do

In my opinion you should interpret the usage of "AI" here to mean "the entire business/management/financial/bubble ecosystem surrounding LLMs". The snake oil is much more how LLMs are being weaponized and utilized rather than a specific technical assessment (although that often is an issue too)

fasterik•about 2 hours ago
My prediction is that it will go the same way as the dot com bubble. The hypesters and fraudsters will eventually collide with objective reality, but the technology will persist and society at large will benefit from the infrastructure and the increased access to knowledge.
Shellban•about 2 hours ago
Assuming that we recover from the damage being done now. As one example, a friend of mine has remarked that large corporations will benefit from the current AI-induced reality of no one being able to afford their own hardware, and keep prices that way to enforce a renters model on computers.
gyomu•about 1 hour ago
> society at large will benefit from the infrastructure

Data centers as infrastructure are very different from DSL rollout though. Much, much more expensive to maintain, with a much much shorter timespan.

If the bubble pops and data centers get shut down because there’s no one to pay the bills, there won’t be much left 5-10 years later in terms of infrastructure.

api•about 2 hours ago
The same thing happened around PCs, gaming, the Internet, the web, and cryptocurrency. It's a hit driven industry that loves hype.
AgentME•about 2 hours ago
LLMs remind me of being a kid again being in wonder of all the possible things that could be done with a computer that haven't been figured out yet. The internet was relatively new and everyone had their own ideas of what that would enable. Fast forward to a few years ago and it was easy to believe that a lot of the low-hanging fruit of things an individual could do with the internet, apps, 3d graphics, etc, had been decently picked over and that things were stabilizing. Now I have no idea again what computing will look like in 5 years and it's exciting.
mid-kid•about 1 hour ago
The snake oil is how the people at the top scream "in x years we won't need programmers" and end up proving themselves wrong time and time again. It's a real technology and it can do a lot, but it's being sold like snake oil while we're still figuring out what it's actually useful for and how to leverage it properly.
tptacek•about 1 hour ago
Snake oil implies that it does nothing, not that it doesn't do everything it's boosters claim it does. Snake oils were medicines sold as cure-alls with no active ingredients.
girvo•about 1 hour ago
I wonder what the better pithy phrase would be then for "thing that is obviously useful, but is being hyped beyond it's (current) ability by those with a vested interest in doing so"
ux266478•about 2 hours ago
The fats in Chinese Water Snakes are rich in omega 3s and do have genuine benefits to consumption. The problem with snake oil wasn't that it was useless. The problem was with hucksters selling it as a cure-all for everything from cancer to syphilis. The metaphor is pretty apt IMO.
zem•1 minute ago
the problem, ironically, is that hucksters were selling other oils as "snake oil" when they didn't have the same omega 3s. the bad reputation was due to fake snake oil.
tcmart14•33 minutes ago
Exactly what I was thinking. It's not that snake oil sales people sold totally useless stuff, its just that the stuff they sold did not deliver the value that was promised. Another example that is still going on today. There is a community of people that swear the ingesting silver prevents all kinds of things, even so far as a cure for cancer. It's snake oil, but it doesn't mean it doesn't have any medicinal purposes. Silver does have anti-microbial properties and can be used topically to manage infections.
tptacek•34 minutes ago
Yes, I got that Google summary too. But "snake oil" patent medicine didn't contain snake oil.

"Snake oil" refers to something sold as a medicament that has no beneficial effect.

spamizbad•38 minutes ago
I would say the claim that AI is going to replace most white collar work a very snake-oily term. The technology behind it however is very compelling and interesting.
tptacek•35 minutes ago
I don't know enough about most white collar work to make any predictions. But I know a lot about software development and information technology because I've been a professional since 1995. The claims being made about AI's impact on that profession do not seem at all snake-oily to me.
tines•about 1 hour ago
> I think it makes me a better programmer because I can bootstrap the knowledge needed for a new project much faster

faster != better

specproc•about 2 hours ago
AI is snake oil. It sells you a slot machine in the guise of a colleague.

Oh, not using it right? Not the right model? Insert coin to continue.

Snake oil, total snake oil.

tptacek•about 1 hour ago
This doesn't even make sense. Maybe if you fleshed it out?
specproc•about 1 hour ago
Snake oil is something not medicine sold as medicine.

AI is something not a colleague (a slot machine), sold as a colleague.

holoduke•about 1 hour ago
I just reversed engineered large parts of my 2011 car odb comms. Was able to hook a stm32 board to the car communication and have full control over a lot of stuff so that I can build my own instrument cluster from a lcd screen. It literally took me one evening to get the first proof of concept working. I never touched stm32 stuff before.
specproc•about 1 hour ago
Good for you, son. I've just spent the whole f*king day screaming at an agent on a deadline.
overgard•about 1 hour ago
Isn't coding solved and we should all be out of a job by now according to Dario? Or what about AI 2027 -- we're only 6 months away! Time to build a bunker!! LLMs themselves aren't snake oil, they're just a useful technology, but all the marketing around them is FUD mixed with hype mixed with the most irritating people on the planet (the ones that aren't bots at least).
echelon•about 1 hour ago
This is less an anti-AI post and more a post against the greed of the industry:

> But things feel different now. I can relate to what Chris Person said when he expressed his frustrations about how these slick conmen are using the technology I adore as tools for exploitation and disempowerment. The Internet, built by idealists on a foundation of openness and community, has become a mire of dark patterns and gardens with ever thicker walls, desperate to keep people within an ecosystem where their attention is the prized commodity. I’ve witnessed a nerdy space full of nerds be invaded by marketers, callous capitalists, and “brogrammers”—exaggerating the worst, most toxic, aspects of geek culture in their pursuit of money and power. I’ve poured hundreds of hours of work into open source projects only to have it all be scraped into a plagiarism machine and then aggressively sold back to me. It feels that the hope I had for the future technology could give us, the naïve and starry-eyed fantasies I fostered in my youth, has been eroded when faced with a reality where the thing I love can make a lot of money for people who don’t care for any of it.

You can simultaneously believe that AI is really cool and also that also a lot of companies are degrading the internet, society, and private ownership at large.

pmg101•about 2 hours ago
I love the computer too. Never more than while writing 6502 assembler for a decades-defunct home computer for literally no purpose at all.

Meanwhile, the economy needs software to be written and I need employment, and I'm lucky enough to have a job that hews somewhat close to my interests, whether that be learning the latest JS framework or to prompt Claude. It's all pretty decent and better than chiselling coal out of a pit for 10 hours a day.

tptacek•about 1 hour ago
I think the author doesn't realize how gatekeepy this sentiment is; that they earned their love of "the computer", that it was formative to them, that they put all this uncomfortable effort into learning how to program, and thus (subtextually) they should have a say in how other people use "the computer".
kridsdale1•37 minutes ago
Long time fans of a thing are allowed to be upset when assholes come in a drastically change it, whether it be Star Wars, your sports team, or programming.
tptacek•22 minutes ago
As long as we're clear that the sentiment here is analogous to people being protective of Star Wars, like you said, I'm good.
Yhippa•about 2 hours ago
This post resonates with me. I remember in Kindergarten getting my very first life experience with computing tech: grounding myself by touching the bottom screws of a Apple IIe. I've loved them in nearly the same way as OP.

I get the way he feels. I remember how special this stuff used to be because of how niche it was. It does feel a bit like the normies co-opted it but that is my personal and selfish view.

Shellban•about 2 hours ago
Mr. Enger echos a lot of thoughts that I (and a lot of people on these forums) seem to have. We can still make an attempt to remake what we love, with personal websites and self-hosting. However modern architecture kills even that with DDoS attacks and IP blacklists on everything. It is no wonder that people are starting to promote alternate protocols like Gemini (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48297467) that explicitly make it impossible for many of the evils of the World Wide Web to be repeated.
sscaryterry•34 minutes ago
I make computer go beep-boop. I love computer.
noncoml•40 minutes ago
One of the main reasons I fell in love with computers was determinism. I always felt weird seeing people get upset and curse at the C++ compiler. In my mind, the “computer” will always give you the same output for the same input. Therefore, you must be doing something wrong if you’re fighting the compiler. The answer to your problems is in the source code.

This is something LLMs took away from me. I can’t just look at the source code and figure out why a prompt didn’t produce the expected outcome. I have to go with my gut feeling, and with the little I know about LLMs.

On the other hand, LLMs have enabled me to code prototypes that I would have only dreamed about a few years ago.

Do you want your own fancy terminal emulator? Done. A couple of weekends’ worth of work.

How about your own Linux windowing system, running Firefox and a terminal? Done. A couple more weekends.

You always hated KiCad routing, but never had time to go through the code and change it to meet your requirements? No worries. A day’s work.

Of course, none of this is production quality, but it gets you started very fast. And I’m sure you can turn it into a solid, production-quality product in much less time than it would take without using an LLM.

ebbi•about 2 hours ago
I love the computer, too.

I remember when I was around 10 and we got out first PC - Compaq Presario - that we shared among us 4 siblings. And I was instantly hooked to. And then about a year later, we got internet connected and the first website we visited was Pokemon.

I remember at my high school, the computer room in the library was fitted out with the new colored iMacs. I was shocked! How could a computer look like this. You had to register to use it each day during lunch breaks because so many people wanted to use them.

I remember the first time I came across an Apple magazine, and it was showing screenshots of the new OS X. The Aqua interface got me hooked. I'd read, and re-read, every page, drooling over the screenshots. It wasn't until ~10 years later I got my first Mac and I was obsessed with it!

charcircuit•about 2 hours ago
I think the author simply grew up. It's easy to ignore all of the business stuff and just have fun when you are kid. Nothing is stopping the author from generating all sorts of crazy stuff with AI if he wants to live on the bleeding edge of technology.
skydhash•about 2 hours ago
My first computer was a pentium II. After one year learning about computing in my school lab and friends’ computers, it was amazing to have something to tinker with. And it and its successors brought me plenty of delight over the year. First discovering Linux (with Linux Mint and Gnome 2 as I couldn’t install Debian), learning assembly and C, learning Blender, learning how windows internals worked,… It has been a tool that has shaped my life. And yes, the current trend of presenting it as a mere source of entertainment and a very small sets of features is sickening.

But this day, I dabble with OpenBSD and Linux (Alpine) and it’s a bit of fresh air. There’s some convenience lost, but you get the freedom of computing back.

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