Framework's 10G Ethernet module exposes USB-C's complexity

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AAlupis about 5 hours ago 42 commentsRead Article on jeffgeerling.com

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Discussion (42 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

ggm•4 minutes ago

Only getting 95% of the book rated speed? I'm OK, that's still a shitload-and-a-half of speed.

RachelF•about 4 hours ago

Every PCIe 10G ethernet card I've seen has a heatsink on it, sometimes covering the entire card or even have little fans on the heatsink.

Expecting it to work full time in a laptop is a bit of a stretch of the heat dissipation budget.

Also, the laptop he is working has the AMD FP8 chipset - depending on how the ports are setup, he might only get 10G USB, if the ports are allocated to video instead.

timschmidt•about 3 hours ago

New chips from Realtek burn < 2W for the chip and < 3-4W for the board: https://www.servethehome.com/cheap-10gbe-realtek-rtl8127-nic...

numpad0•about 2 hours ago

4W is TDP for some of Pi-style mini computers. Lots of them have fans.

timschmidt•about 1 hour ago

Pi 4 and 5 both idle around 3W. But a Pi 5 can pull up to 16W with a USB peripheral, full CPU load, and decoding 4k video. The Pi 4 / 5 will run OKish without a heatsink at idle wattages, but thermal throttle quickly if you attempt to do something intensive.

These realtek 10gbe chips are more in the range of the Pi Zero class machines (0.5W idle, 2W loaded) which don't often come with heatsinks though they might benefit from them. If it has a good thermal connection to a good thick ground plane on the PCB, that's worth almost as much as a passive heatsink on the top of the chip.

usb-c < card edge < motherboard integrated in terms of how much heat can be transfered through the connection. Where the motherboard would have the largest ground plane to soak up heat from such an IC and dissipate it passively. The usb-c module is worst case by being a small enclosed box with very little thermal connection through the plastic insulating housing. An aluminum enclosure might dissipate enough heat passively to make it pleasant to use.

userbinator•about 2 hours ago

...and yet they're still covered by a huge heatsink.

mystifyingpoi•about 2 hours ago

To add perspective, an old-school 7805 voltage regulator dissipating just 1 watt is already impossibly hot to hold with bare hand (as me how I know). So 3-4 watts on a small module will make it noticeably hot.

drnick1•38 minutes ago

They aren't huge at all, the new RTL cards are tiny. I wish 2-port versions were available for a home server upgrade.

jfb•about 4 hours ago

Yeah, 10Gb ethernet runs hot. I just rewired the house with 10Gb (we have 8Gb FTTP) and it's kind of upsetting how hot my Thunderbolt dock gets.

Gigachad•about 3 hours ago

I looked in to it and it seemed like 10gbit was much better over fiber. Ended up deciding that 2.5gbit is plenty. The 2.5 gear is significantly cheaper and runs cool.

jfb•about 3 hours ago

Yeah, I use DAC for the desktop and fibre between floors. It's just the Mac's desktop that uses RJ45 copper.

drnick1•44 minutes ago

> I looked in to it and it seemed like 10gbit was much better over fiber.

Yes, except that most devices use Ethernet. So, at the end of the day, you still need Ethernet cables unless you want to deal with an additional switch or converter in every room.

DrPhish•26 minutes ago

I redid everything that matters in my house/homelab with DAC cables for exactly that reason. Order of magnitude difference in watts and heat

polski-g•about 2 hours ago

So the entire Framework card's casing should have been copper?

purpleidea•about 1 hour ago

Having it stick out like that is such a stupid design. Almost as dumb as all the 2FA dongles. The USB-A ones that you could leave in actually made the most sense. Yes I know.

drnick1•40 minutes ago

Does a laptop really need more than 1Gbps or whatever you can get through WiFi? It's an edge device not a router.

koalalorenzo•29 minutes ago

Well, it's Framework we are talking about. My plan is to buy it because at some point of its lifecycle my Framework 12 motherboard will be used as a new node in my Homelab. :)

geocar•22 minutes ago

Yours is an “edge device” but I am root, so mine is a portable tool for managing and testing the network that does not have working WiFi access points attached to it or obviously I would not be there.

And yes, some of those links are above 1gbps so that the users can have individual 1gbps links.

stephbook•24 minutes ago

Obviously not. I've got a $300 WQHD monitor that has 1GB/s over USB-C with power delivery. MacBooks have 2GB/s WiFi.

For the niche enthusiast, that dongle is fine.

kelnos•about 4 hours ago

In a way, I kinda don't get the idea of an expansion card for ethernet, rather than just a dongle. Specifically, as in this case, where it sticks out from the side of the chassis.

If I'm on the go, I'll have to take it out of the chassis while it's in my bag so I don't damage it. In that case, it's easier to have a regular USB-C card in that port, and toss a dongle in my bag instead of the expansion card.

If I'm not on the go, I'm at a desk, and I'd still rather plug in a dongle than regularly swap an expansion card.

I'm not saying you'd never want the expansion card, but it feels pretty niche.

NewJazz•about 4 hours ago

I'd also add that at a fixed location/desk, having a dock with ethernet is also very normal.

Anyway it is probably just there to demonstrate the possibilities to consumers. What if a lower profile standard for networking gets popularized?

RiverCrochet•about 3 hours ago

they had very flat (on one side) Ethernet pigtails in the PCMCIA days.

mjevans•about 2 hours ago

Those sucked so hard, were extremely finicky to plug in, and I was in constant terror of breaking it. Even the popout jack things were horrific in that respect.

I'm 1000% for wired connections where possible, but for laptops too thin to have one built inside of the frame the best choice is a proper docking station, ideally with a cable that isn't impossible to user replace.

kelnos•about 2 hours ago

Oh god, bringing back memories I don't want. They were always so fragile.

kps•about 1 hour ago

ix (IEC 61076-3-124)

getcrunk•about 4 hours ago

A lot of people use their laptop as a desktop replacement and kinda leave it in one spot or only move it between two spots (home desk/office desk) rather than as an actually portable take anywhere use anywhere situation

Gigachad•about 3 hours ago

In that case I'd rather just have one of those big usb hubs that has every port on it. Rather than an adapter designed that it only works on one laptop. Sure in theory you could plug them in to any but the design of it is such that you'd snap the connector if you plugged it in to a normal port.

While a regular usb-c ethernet adapter has a flexible cable between the laptop and the bulky rigid part.

geerlingguy•about 3 hours ago

Thunderbolt hubs are rather amazing now; in the past they'd either get super hot and have reliability issues, or had severe bandwidth limitations (especially if using larger displays).

The current crop has been great for my needs — a couple models have 10G Ethernet built in (CalDigit is the one I'm using now), and most now have more than one Thunderbolt port that allows a high speed storage device to be used as well (in addition to a 5K or 4K display or two!).

kelnos•about 2 hours ago

In that case why wouldn't you use a hub/docking station type thing? And again, that configuration still lends itself just fine to a dongle.

alex43578•about 4 hours ago

Isn’t that kind of most things Framework? Sure, a replaceable color bezel is fun, but pretty niche.

SV_BubbleTime•about 2 hours ago

I fell out of love with frameworks after buying one for myself and a few employees.

The economics/upgrade math just does not make sense.

db48x•about 4 hours ago

There’s nothing to “get”. The circuit doesn’t fit inside the slot for expansion cards. You could plug in a dongle instead, but then you’d have a big hole in your laptop with a cable sticking out. Or you could just get a wider laptop bag. They make them in multiple sizes, you know.

Jtsummers•about 3 hours ago

> you’d have a big hole in your laptop with a cable sticking out

No, you wouldn't. You'd have one of these instead: https://frame.work/products/usb-c-expansion-card?v=FRACCQ000... (or the one matching a color you prefer and your particular model)

db48x•about 3 hours ago

Now you’ve got two things plugged into your laptop, instead of one that sticks out by an inch. :)

kelnos•about 1 hour ago

Er, no, then you'd use the regular USB-C expansion card and plug the dongle into that, and then the port becomes generally useful.

A wider bag doesn't solve it. The part that sticks out could still easily snag on something. I wouldn't want to take that risk, and I doubt many people would.

I feel like you're arguing just to argue...

petterroea•about 1 hour ago

Frankly, considering this is a laptop, I wish they spent more effort on delivering a flush 1gbe module rather than a 10gbe module. It has become an elephant in the room every time someone asks about my framework laptop. It... sticks out like a sore thumb, per say.

jeffbee•about 1 hour ago

I think most people do not have 10g UTP infrastructure they want to exploit, but many people do have 2 computers they'd like to connect together at high speed, and these people are far better served by just connecting those computers' Thunderbolt ports together. With nothing other than an admittedly pricey cable, you get 10, 20, or 40gbps links depending on the endpoints. That's the "something faster" that will work well for most people.