Back to News
Advertisement
Advertisement

⚡ Community Insights

Discussion Sentiment

62% Positive

Analyzed from 1544 words in the discussion.

Trending Topics

#fintech#point#more#precision#numbers#api#same#money#years#idempotency

Discussion (40 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

lxgrabout 2 hours ago
Word of advice to anyone considering the "minor-units precision" strategy for representing monetary amounts: Don't (or at least, don't use it as an interchange/API data format).

It seems like a clever idea (fast integer math, no rounding problems for addition and subtraction), but it'll bite you incredibly hard if you ever stumble upon an edge case such as working with a partner that has a different implied number of digits for a given currency. This is especially relevant for stablecoins, which often have a different number of implied decimal digits than the "fiat" currency they represent.

Also, consider representing amounts as a string type in JSON-based APIs. JSON does not specify decimal precision, so you (and all your users/vendors) will always have to make sure your parser/serializer doesn't internally lose precision by going via floating point. This can get ugly fast, and while a string seems conceptually less neat, it completely bypasses that problem. (Some will call this an anti-pattern [1], but I'd rather not fight this particular battle for ideological purity on the shoulders of my users or shareholders.)

[1] https://blog.json-everything.net/posts/numbers-are-numbers-n...

noitpmeder16 minutes ago
The only real correct solution here is to send mantissa and exponent as two separate integers. It's trivial to convert between exponents for whatever math you want, it can be as correct as you want, and is unambiguous.

In the HFT space you save some wire space if you can commit to a consistent exponent for some {slice} up front (think instrument/tick-size/asset-class/exchange/feed/server/whatever/...) such that you only need to send the mantissa and your clients can have a hard coded exponent. However, in similar spaces it's often worth the extra uint32 to send a on-the-wire exponent such that things _can_ change and you aren't hamstrung later by earlier "we only need cents now!" design choices when, e.g., you suddenly need to support bitcoin/... prices to full precision. (your users will thank you when they don't have to coordinate a breaking change when you want to adjust your fixed exponent)

antonymoose41 minutes ago
Having done HFT / low-latency in C++ with a browser based (read: JavaScript) management front-end: Go ahead and use integer cents everyone. It’s practically an industry standard and it works just fine. Anything else is a worse compromise.
denismenaceabout 2 hours ago
> but it'll bite you incredibly hard if you ever stumble upon an edge case such as working with a partner that has a different implied number of digits for a given currency

Why would that be a problem? You just transform the values when interacting with their API.

xliiabout 1 hour ago
Exactly, model is in integers and representation can be 1⃣3⃣ or whatever, that's why model-view separation exist.
lxgrabout 1 hour ago
Sure, you can do that if you can absolutely guarantee that everyone will always respect that separation and there will never be ambiguity between your internal and some partner's representation – even during incidents, even during low-level CSV-to-DB ETLs during incidents ("just one time, I promise, we don't have time to build the proper adapter, but look how similar their and our formats are").
lxgrabout 2 hours ago
Sure, but are all your (and your users' and vendors') engineers and LLM agents going to remember that? When in doubt, always be explicit.
makeitdoubleabout 1 hour ago
I'm curious how you handle that.

Let's say I operate with a 4 decimal expectation and your API expects 6, is there any way to reconcile that outside of documentation and or metadata ? (which would be the same issue I guess whatever representation is used ?)

gucci-on-fleekabout 2 hours ago
What do you recommend instead? Standard floating-point ("float"/"double"), fixed-point arithmetic with thousandths (or smaller) of the minor unit, arbitrary-precision decimal numbers, or something else entirely?
lxgrabout 2 hours ago
I think what matters most is your database and API representation, as well as having consistent and well-defined rounding rules.

I largely agree with TFA: Round explicitly and consistently whenever you cross a boundary, i.e. database persistence and internal API calls.

Use whatever works for your required business case internally (i.e. inside of procedures calculating some function of one or more input amounts). This can be regular old floats/doubles if you absolutely know what you're doing, or BigDecimal if you aren't and would rather suffer slightly slower performance than having to talk to an auditor about IEEE 754 rounding modes, or even minor-amount integers (yes, even though I just said to not use them – but you'll want to ABSOLUTELY NEVER leak them outside of your system, including your data/analytics pipeline, which might have different ideas about financial amounts than your business logic implementing a nice custom monetary type).

ivanmontillamabout 2 hours ago
A string type. As parent says: it completely bypasses the problem. Save the numbers between double quotes and be done with it.
portlyabout 1 hour ago
Storing numbers as arrays of u8? That doesn't make sense
KellyCriterionabout 1 hour ago
Do not throw away any precision in finance/money computation, regardless what/ how you are doing it.

In C# e.g., there is type decimal for those computations.

lxgrabout 1 hour ago
You'll definitely have to throw it away at some point.

The art is in making those points well-defined and rare enough to not cause large discrepancies, but frequent enough to avoid ballooning arbitrary-precision numbers across databases and services that might not be able to handle them.

necrotic_comp41 minutes ago
Floating point value stored multiplied by 10^8. That gives you a huge integer, but it's extremely accurate, especially for US denominated currencies. Easily transformed into floating point numbers for reporting/etc.
xliiabout 1 hour ago
I glanced, and I found this handbook shallow and - in some areas - even bad advice.

E.g. If I ever see a monetary value stored in something else than integers I'm going to run away screaming (thank you Rust decimals represented as JSON floats). It's always integers unless you have a VERY good reason to do otherwise (though exported view can be in anything, even in weird bitcoded formats).

FX exchange. Resolution of FX isn't a point-in-time thing, things like buyer rate-in-time, seller rate-in-time, agreement, agreement tolerance, agreed upon resolution timestamp come in the effect.

Immutability - that's why you want to have event sourcing everywhere that touches money:

    # Resolved stream
    A -> B -> E

    # Actual stream
    A0 -> Edit(A0, A) -> B -> C -> D -> Rollback(B) -> E

Though in the end Fintech != Fintech. I worked at Fintech where money was treated like a baggage, and in other where money was a central point of everything.
koliber22 minutes ago
Anyone know of resources like this but for capital markets? Things that would allow engineers new to trading equities, options, FX, bonds, and commodities to learn about different flows, market structure, common architectures, and other things that normally you learn from years of experience.
benashfordabout 1 hour ago
I think most of this applies to software engineering generally, not just fintech.

For example the parts talking of retries, idempotency, event ordering, etc. This applies to all systems that require any degree of accuracy, even if no money is directly involved. I've seen so many systems built on the assumption that "we can always retry", but you can only retry if you fail cleanly in the first place, and if the downstream system offers the same level of idempotency that you think it does. Quite often these are not put to the test.

danielabinav160about 2 hours ago
The idempotency keys section alone is worth the read most devs learn that lesson the hard way.
lxgrabout 1 hour ago
I just wish the financial industry itself had known about these when the core banking systems and financial communication protocols of the 60s and 70s were invented that are still being used to this day...

Many of these predate the widespread knowledge of idempotency, so often idempotency keys are hacked together by joining various, hopefully globally unique fields, except that they never quite are. (You can look behind the curtain sometimes, e.g. when your bank does not let you transfer the same amount to the same recipient account on the same calendar day.)

__natty__about 2 hours ago
Also audit trails. Good audit trail can save company (and you) in emergency as well. Useful for debugging and last resort of compliance data source.
pardsabout 2 hours ago
100%. It deserves more detail, too.

I've spent many hours explaining how idempotency is supposed to work, and why it's important. Most teams understand the need for it, but very few thought about it up front.

senthil_rajasek25 minutes ago
Does fintech here mean "crypto" and central bank currencies transactions?
ricardobayesabout 2 hours ago
Does anyone have more learning resources in this field? Any model implementations, pet projects, anything to get going?
charlieirishabout 1 hour ago
Similar style and message to https://shapeofthesystem.com/
cirrhosisabout 1 hour ago
I have just left a fintech company after 5 years and I can say after reading this, it looks legit to me (not AI slop as someone asked). These are the same sort of lessons I learned during my time in the industry.

I would recommend anyone starting in fintech to take some time to understand accounting principles and the ledger in a bit more depth than just debits vs credits - this is likely what is most unfamiliar to programmers.

Also financial software is very data-heavy and I learned more about databases in my time working in fintech than the 15 years before that. I think going into a bit more detail about even the basics (indexes) will save a lot of headaches.

sdevonoesabout 1 hour ago
> I would recommend anyone starting in fintech to take some time to understand accounting principles and the ledger in a bit more depth than just debits vs credits

Any good resources you would recommend to learn more about this?

jgalt21226 minutes ago
> Webhooks are the most common way to receive signals from external systems, but processing them safely is not trivial

I see webhooks documented all the time, but I have yet to use them in practice, nor have my customers requested them. Is the above not true, or are they widely used in some sectors and not others?

intelcoders7 minutes ago
In payment gateway integration, webhooks are usually considered a single source of truth for updating the payment status, with status check api as a fallback.
dapperdrakeabout 2 hours ago
First half didn’t sound so bad.
Advertisement
dc_giantabout 2 hours ago
Sorry have to ask these days. Is this carefully written down information from years of experience in the field or AI slop?
jagged-chiselabout 2 hours ago
Appears that the author got some help organizing the document, but wrote it all themselves.
kreverabout 1 hour ago
Hey, author here :)

Its at least 80% organic artisanal writing and maybe 20% AI when I needed help with grammar, completeness, broader perspective and everything around.

logdahl35 minutes ago
It may be a good idea to start the book with a really short "About the author" to state exactly this and your work experience. Otherwise looks well written to me, good job! :)
thewisenerdabout 2 hours ago
from the author's mastodon post [0]

    I just published Fintech Engineering Handbook distilled from 6 years of tears, sweat and swears. 
    It’s a free ~25-page resource with various hints and patterns around handling money. 
    Tell me what you think!
other than that, peruse the commits on the source [1], or wait for the author to respond.

[0]: https://mas.to/@krever/116814803588993437

[1]: https://github.com/Krever/fintech-engineering-handbook/commi...

zipy124about 2 hours ago
Whilst I wouldn't say anything in it requires years of experience to know, this would be helpful for someone who hasn't considered anything about monetary systems. It doesn't read like slop, but I could be wrong but even so it all seems fairly reasonable (I've only fully read about 50% before realising there's nothing new here for me, and then skimmed to rest).
manwithopinionsabout 2 hours ago
Skimmed it and based on my experience in fintech, it looks good, accurately represents the real world. I guess there’s still a chance it is AI generated but it doesn’t seem like vacuous slop, it has substance!