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#service#usps#mail#more#delivery#don#rural#public#post#postal

Discussion (106 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

hingler36about 14 hours ago
Pretty important asterisk concerning the privatization of the Japanese rail network: this privatization led to the closure of a lot of rural, unprofitable lines. IMO this would play out similarly for the USPS; it's not hard to remain profitable when you can just cleave off the parts of your public service that are in the red.
brandensilvaabout 1 hour ago
The irony here is the red Republican states are the ones voting for this who will be most impacted by it.
queenkjuulabout 13 hours ago
JR also owns tons of valuable real estate that brings them recurring revenue
Grombobulousabout 15 hours ago
I read the whole article, and it had a lot of informed discussion within it, but ultimately that discussion felt a little pointless.

The crisis is manufactured, the debate of “what to do” or “what would happen if privatization happens?” does not need to be a discussion.

The USPS is a no-brainer public service and the only reason there is any question of its value is due to the severely broken, dysfunctional, corrupt Congress.

If it’s unprofitable, it’s barely unprofitable, especially in the scope of government services.

How many days of the Iran war would fully fund the USPS’ operating budget deficit for a year?

I’m not even sure that corporate lobbyists will be happy with privatization. For example, both FedEx and UPS rely on USPS for last mile delivery of some types of packages. What about all the companies that send me junk mail 6 days a week? Are they going to be happy when one of their most effective forms of marketing doubles in price or shrinks down to 3 day a week service?

limagnoliaabout 14 hours ago
Is it? I don't think I would miss the junk mail delivery service if it went away entirely.
galleywest200about 14 hours ago
USPS does last mile delivery for a lot of rural places.

Besides that junk mail might actually increase if a private company was paid to take it to your house since they would have a profit motive - more junk mail delivered means more profits.

delichonabout 13 hours ago
> USPS does last mile delivery for a lot of rural places.

Not in the rural places I've lived, including my current one for 20 years. UPS and FedEx deliver to my porch. USPS has never been here. I drive to my PO box in the nearest town. I think that in this whole county they only deliver to post offices.

AnimalMuppetabout 14 hours ago
Charge junk mail the same rate as first class. More money for the post office? That's a win. Or less junk mail? Also a win.
fn-moteabout 14 hours ago
Junk mail is a net positive for postal service revenue. Even if you could eliminate it (major free speech concern), would it be a good idea? Who would pay extra when the can just throw out the junk in less than 2 minutes a week?
eruabout 11 hours ago
A privatised postal service could capture this as well to finance rural delivery.
boston_cloneabout 14 hours ago
prime “can’t see the forest for the trees” sort of thinking, here
jauntywundrkindabout 9 hours ago
Absolutely. People love to find the lowest possible snipe, to pretend like they are totally unable to understand value.
eruabout 15 hours ago
> The USPS is a no-brainer public service and the only reason there is any question of its value is due to the severely broken, dysfunctional, corrupt Congress.

Huh? Even Germany managed to privatise their snail mail, and approximately no one would want to renationalise it.

What makes USPS a 'no-brainer public service'? What's the big benefit of having government snail mail?

Mail delivery service is not a public good. It's both excludable and rivalrous. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_good

> What about all the companies that send me junk mail 6 days a week?

Effectively calling USPS the 'federal agency of paper spam delivery' doesn't exactly sound like a ringing endorsement?

materielleabout 14 hours ago
I don’t know anything about Germany’s postal service.

In the US, what the parent comment was getting it, is why are we even talking about this in the first place? What problem is privatization trying to solve?

As an American, I have zero complaints about our postal service or how much we pay for it. Apart from the fact that I wish there were more branch offices and a few more workers at most locations. I don’t think privatization will solve either of those.

Why do we need to reform something that already works?

Eridrusabout 14 hours ago
I think the problem being solved here is largely one of waste.

USPS hides 9bn of unfunded pension obligations every year and underserves urban areas to subsidize rural areas.

Mail volume is also generally falling as everything moves to email, so it is getting both less profitable and less critical.

The US is a rich country, we can afford to waste a lot of money and not notice, and of course one person's waste is another person's easier job or subsidized service, but given the ongoing decline in the importance of mail (vs package) delivery, it's not clear that this is a particularly important utility for the government to maintain any more.

treisabout 14 hours ago
The USPS is about $100 billion short in funds for retiree healthcare. Operationally they're slated to run out of cash shortly and that's going to get worse as they have to directly fund more and more retiree health care.
msandfordabout 14 hours ago
My problem rate with Fedex or UPS is maybe 0.1% of packages. I can't remember the last time I had a delivery issue.

Just this week I had a package that was supposed to be delivered by Monday that lost tracking and didn't show up until Wednesday.

It might be "basically fine and good enough" but it's definitely not "amazing and completely beyond reproach" at least in my opinion.

jnellisabout 14 hours ago
USA is large and people live everywhere, including hard to get spots. USPS just works in all those places. Privatization would discriminate against those people in a heartbeat. See: rural broadband in the US.
charcircuitabout 14 hours ago
Charging people a price relative to the cost of a service is not discrimination.
Guvanteabout 14 hours ago
Germany is 4% of America in size. A single US state with decent population density wouldn't need a nationalized system either.

The USPS gets a monopoly because it is required to go everywhere. If a private company doesn't want to go into Michigan it doesn't have to.

Without a monopoly protection USPS goes from being slightly unprofitable to very unprofitable by companies competing only in cheap areas.

Basically USPS needs $0.78 to mail a one ounce letter overall. However it doesn't need that much for you to mail within the same city, it is probably much less than that.

But they do need it if you send a letter across the country.

eruabout 12 hours ago
They could auction off a universal service obligation to willing bidders. No need to run a federal agency with a monopoly for that.

(And everything you explain could also be accomplished by state-run services, no need to involve the federal level.)

Arrowmasterabout 14 hours ago
USPS as a public entity of the US government is required to deliver mail to all addresses. I don't know all the specific details and I'm sure there's some exceptions for getting service to a new location but existing locations cannot be removed.

There is daily USPS service to a postbox at the bottom of the Grand Canyon that is only accessible by mule paths. I guarantee this service would either be cancelled or go up in cost to thousands of dollars per letter if USPS was privatized. The sheer size and remoteness of parts of the USA is why it's a public good.

https://facts.usps.com/8-mile-mule-train-delivery/

jltsirenabout 12 hours ago
Public goods can be contracted out to private entities. And this can be done independently in each region, without having a single central contractor.

EU countries privatized their postal services decades ago, because governments are not allowed to compete with private entities in the market (unless explicitly allowed by EU-wide laws). And because the idea felt good, the same privatization extended to territories outside the EU, such as Greenland.

eruabout 12 hours ago
> There is daily USPS service to a postbox at the bottom of the Grand Canyon that is only accessible by mule paths. I guarantee this service would either be cancelled or go up in cost to thousands of dollars per letter if USPS was privatized.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Why does a hill billy who insists on living at the bottom of the Grand Canyon deserve a subsidy? That public money would be better spend helping poor people.

owenthejumperabout 14 hours ago
For one, Germany is a densely populated country smaller than the state of California. I think we can stop there?

There is really almost no comparison to the US in terms of rural areas anywhere in Europe.

eruabout 12 hours ago
Just split the US into 50 individual territories, if you think that being small is a benefit in service provision.

> There is really almost no comparison to the US in terms of rural areas anywhere in Europe.

Why do rural people deserve subsidies by virtue of living in the sticks?

garbagewomanabout 14 hours ago
What were the benefits to germany?
eruabout 11 hours ago
Lower prices, bigger volume in the market. And the privatised Deutsche Post (/ DHL) is now a world beating logistics company that makes plenty of profit, instead of subsidies and bleeding red ink all over.

However Germany still has plenty of government interference in snail mail, like a universal service mandate (or a sector specific minimum wage).

Denmark dropped that requirement, and Danish society hasn't collapsed so far.

thayneabout 13 hours ago
Post is a natural monopoly, at a national scale. It is much more efficient to have a single centralized service doing all mail delivery than several competing services doing the same.

It isn't completely non-rivalrous, but the marginal cost of delivering a parcel diminishes as the number of parcels delivered in an area goes up.

eruabout 12 hours ago
> Post is a natural monopoly, at a national scale.

It evidently is not. There's multiple providers.

notnautabout 15 hours ago
If the USPS were fully privatized without strict government subsidies or mandates, rural and remote Americans would likely face exorbitant delivery surcharges or lose service entirely.

Once again… the United States is very large.

eruabout 12 hours ago
> [...] rural and remote Americans would likely face exorbitant delivery surcharges [...]

Surfacing the cost of service provision to end users is generally a good tool to align incentives.

(Use welfare systems to give money to poor people. But don't worry about giving rich people support just because they are old or live in the sticks.)

wwwestonabout 14 hours ago
> The USPS is a no-brainer public service and the only reason there is any question of its value is due to the severely broken, dysfunctional, corrupt

electorate.

Congress is composed of people who the electorate sends there.

Once there member choices are shaped by the people who contact and persuade them.

If the USPS is poorly funded or managed, it’s because US electorate either wanted that, or was inattentive about the relevant funding and management and cares more about other things.

And if the postal service dies or is captured and privatized, that’s a reflection of the preferences of voters, or a testament to the limits of their attention and intelligence to the point where they voted for people who did things they don’t want.

Most Americans also prefer to blame political folk devils to for the failures instead, and seem to be more happy with that than personal and community discipline that would be necessary to engage responsibly, though, so the system is arguably working to reflect people’s revealed preferences already.

EDIT: I should probably add that it’s not obvious to me that it’s poorly managed. I’ve enjoyed decades of adequate-to-impressive service via USPS over a variety of locations.

vjvjvjvjghvabout 14 hours ago
"And if the postal service dies or is captured and privatized, that’s a reflection of the preferences of voters, or a testament to the limits of their attention and intelligence to the point where they voted for people who did things they don’t want."

I hate this. There is plenty of research showing that the opinion of the broader electorate has almost no influence on most policies. Only lobbyists and donors count.

wwwestonabout 13 hours ago
Elections still have consequences, right? I’d think the fallout between fall of 2024 and now illustrates that. And that was the choice of the electorate (unless someone can demonstrate results were tampered with). So voter choices count.

There are differences in how individual congress members and coalitions handle policy, so who voters choose matters.

Also, some of that research you’re invoking shows that most officeholders try to keep their promises:

https://theconversation.com/do-politicians-break-their-promi...

I agree lobbyists have influence. What is a lobbyist and why aren’t more people lobbying?

Donors also have influence, and yet the electorate has every opportunity to determine who donors must influence every election. Why would they choose someone who is only beholden to donors?

Grombobulousabout 14 hours ago
This argument assumes that Congress does what the electorate wants.

In a system where money in politics is unlimited (US v. Citizens United), elections consist of a first past the post two-party system, the president is not elected by popular vote, investigative media has been gutted and consolidated into oligarchal ownership, and proportional representation doesn’t exist (see: Washington DC residents have no representation, senators per Californian versus senators per Wyoming resident, gerrymandered districts) I don’t think we can blame the electorate for Congress not doing things that the people want.

wwwestonabout 13 hours ago
Money distorts the system in some ways and I agree that’s a problem that could use systemic mitigation (farther back than Citizen’s United probably, Buckley vs Valeo is arguably the deeper roots).

But ultimately, money doesn’t remove the fundamental electoral mechanisms (yet) or opportunity for volunteer direct lobbying. It primarily distorts to the degree that it can be used to buy the focus of the electorate and to the degree it can be used to buy other people’s lobbying time.

People could spend their time managing their own political /public policy focus and volunteer lobbying instead of any other leisure activities. I’ve done it and I know others who do. Most Americans don’t, and that’s a revealed preference. Other leisure activities are more important.

sanguinesphinxabout 14 hours ago
yawn the old blame the victim. Get lost kid.
wwwestonabout 13 hours ago
When the electorate is literally the mechanism by which officeholders are selected, how is the electorate not responsible?

This is not the same situation as someone who is the victim of a violent crime they didn’t volunteer for, choosing language that creates that confusion won’t change the reality that officeholders are chosen by the electorate.

PsylentKnightabout 13 hours ago
Why not both? Yes, there are systemic issues in the US. But 70% of the US either voted for Trump or didn’t vote at all in 2024.

(Let me pause to pre-empt any bothsideism by saying that I think that’s silly and I doubt you’ll change my mind on that, but you can try)

Continuing on - liberals tend to point at systemic issues, but personal responsibility is a thing too. I’m a bit tired of the “education this, social media that” arguments. I grew up in rural Texas, one of the most conservative, fundamentalist, and poorly educated states in the US. By the time I was 14 I rejected the then nascent Fox-style fascism and bigotry I was surrounded by at home and church, because I actually bothered to seek out information on the internet and hear the other side even when it was uncomfortable or felt morally repugnant to me

I don’t say this to congratulate myself (or maybe I do, deep down). I try to stay humble and I feel that I succeed in that to the extent that I have often had self esteem issues. I genuinely have tried to see the other side. Everyone in my family is conservative. It would make my life easier if I didn't have the cognitive dissonance of caring about them while at the same time frankly reckoning with the fact that I consider them weak and stupid people that I would never associate with if we didn't have history. It feels mean and bad to say that out loud, but no matter how much I try to repress it, it's the way I feel. I really don't want to be someone that lets politics come in the way of relationships, but at some point it's a matter of personal values

So after 2024, I have to say, what the hell is wrong with the people in this country? Why is everyone so stupid, selfish and easily misled? There are so many legitimately interesting and inherently difficult problems to be solved with politics, and so far in my 30 years I’ve only seen conservatives blowing the United State’s huge lead by clogging up all of the political bandwidth of the entire country with barefaced bigotry. I’m so tired of it. 2024 was a breaking point for me. I don’t know how I can identify with or be proud of this country.

Happy 250th y’all

cobertosabout 14 hours ago
Doesn't USPS also play a key role in a lot of other services?

* ID verification

* Vacant home notifications

* Registered mail

I have a hard time seeing a private company scrupulously handling these operations when the incentives to manipulate them could be very large.

Grombobulousabout 13 hours ago
I still think the USPS banking idea would be a really great one.

Easier profit than a regular bank because the “branches” already have to exist, closes banking gaps for underserved populations, perhaps some other benefits I haven’t even considered.

burnt-resistorabout 11 hours ago
It shouldn't be done for-profit, it should be equivalent to a credit union open to all.
AnimalMuppetabout 14 hours ago
Also voting.

If you privatize the post office, then either mail-in voting stops completely, or else a private company can control which mail-in ballots get delivered, and which ones don't.

Leonard_of_Qabout 4 hours ago
That'd be mostly a net-positive since mail-in voting seems to be hard to get right in your country. Better to get rid of it in all but the most pressing cases - those who can not leave the house, overseas military and such - and have people go to the voting booth themselves, show their ID, get a ballot and fill it out using a writing implement. Do the count locally at the end of the day and send the ballots to a central location for another count. You'll have a "paper trail" in case the count is questioned, you get the results the same day, you call make sure only those eligible to vote do so and more. If it can be done in places ranging from rural Sweden (population density < 1/km2) to urban India it surely can be done in the USA.
nickthegreekabout 2 hours ago
> That'd be mostly a net-positive since mail-in voting seems to be hard to get right in your country

Strawman. You might have the belief that it’s hard to get right, but that seems based on the American news sources you are consuming from your spit in the world. In reality, there are very little issues with this.

danarisabout 2 hours ago
Unfortunately, for the people seeking to privatize the post office, that's seen as a feature, not a bug.
Avicebronabout 14 hours ago
Yes, it also had a mandate to deliver mail. So people living in the middle of nowhere New Mexico can do something like run a small business through delivery (this was on the radio the last time this nonsense was floated). It's actually kind of beautiful, something that I can't imagine would work with a privately owned system.
callcabout 14 hours ago
The beautiful thing is a society deeming universal (gasp!) access to mail to be important.

The ugly part is profit driven mindset, and a “you live in an unprofitable area to mail to, sorry” obvious outcome

shimmanabout 14 hours ago
They'd end up charging you the amount of money you'd make sending the package, that's how all these forms of rentierism work: Uber, Amazon, Apple, Shopify, etc. Private taxes they want to force onto people.

Must fight it at any opportunity. I can't imagine the economic value something like USPS brings to the country, likely trillions of trillions over it's lifespan. Something the corpos would never admit.

burnt-resistorabout 11 hours ago
And general delivery*, media mail**, passports, money orders, stamps, and collectables. Furthermore, nation-state post offices should provide free basic banking services to everyone to eliminate unbanked status.

* Delivery to a post office for an individual without a delivery address

** Low cost media shipping excluding comic books, games, and magazines containing advertisements

comrade1234about 15 hours ago
The postal service was in the constitution from the beginning - Washington signed it. But the wording is a bit weird - obviously there's supposed to be a postal service but now with how bad tings have become, who knows.
eruabout 15 hours ago
Huh, where's the postal service in the constitution?

As far as I can tell your constitution allows the federal level to regulate postal services, but it does not require the establishment of government snail mail.

comrade1234about 14 hours ago
"The Congress shall have Power...To establish Post Offices and post Roads;"

The wording "shall" is what I meant by weird wording. But no roads? No post offices? Whatever. The constitution is extremely flawed and should be abandoned.

Leonard_of_Qabout 4 hours ago
> The constitution is extremely flawed and should be abandoned.

The Constitution is mostly fine and has carried your (?) country for 250 years. It is mostly fine because it is mostly interpreted in an originalist way, i.e. as a document meant to function as the underpinning of a society where all men are equal and endowed with unalienable rights by God. That last bit - God - is as important for those who believe in a god as it is for those who don't because it means those rights are not granted by government and as such can not be taken away.

The wording of a constitution is one thing, the interpretation thereof a wholly different one. Read the constitution of the Soviet Union and you get the impression that there was a state where people really were able to live life to the fullest, helped and protected by the government. Compare it to how life actually looked in that state and you'll get the impression that you surely must have read the wrong document.

bulbarabout 12 hours ago
"Just build it from scratch, can't be that hard" - every software engineer at some point in the past.

It is that hard and even harder. An then you have the problem that politicians and societies have a hard time to decide on topics of much narrower scope and much smaller impact.

That said, I would love to for the US having a solid checks and balances system instead of the current system.

If you want to look at a case study regarding a 'more modern' constitution: the German (de facto) constitution is only around 80 years old.

eruabout 12 hours ago
> But no roads?

What's so confusing about that? Presumably the constitution assumes that normal roads are for the more local layers of government to deal with.

I interpret 'shall have power' to mean 'if they want to, they can do it'. Doesn't mean they have. Eg they have the power to levy tariffs on foreign trade, but the constitution is perfectly happy with free trade, too.

AnimalMuppetabout 14 hours ago
That's quite a non sequitur there. The wording is weird, so we should abandon the entire constitution?

Not so fast, comrade. Not so fast. You've got a lot of work ahead of you to fill in the gaps in your logic here, before any of us are going to agree with your conclusion.

Joker_vDabout 15 hours ago
A Soviet joke goes like this: "Daddy, daddy, they've said on the radio that vodka price goes up next month! Does it mean that you won't drink as much anymore?" — "No, son, it means that you won't eat as much no more".

So. The new private owner(s) will try to increase their profit. Increasing the efficiency of the processes already in place while providing the same services with the same coverage/quality/etc. at the same prices is indeed one way to increase the profit... but it's one of the hardest ways. Hiking up the prices and discontinuing services with smallest margins is a much simpler, easier, and even more effort-efficient way so this is what's going to happen first.

chankabout 14 hours ago
It means prices will go up and service/quality will go down. I already consider the service sort of at a base state. If it gets any worse, it will just go under. Which is what they want.
JustinGoldberg9about 14 hours ago
It's already a (public) corporation. You can send mail through the non-profit, old postal service. You have to measure the postage yourself and put it in the slot called non-domestic mail.
postalunsureabout 2 hours ago
Do you mean mail things as a non-profit organization? I see that on the USPS website, but it is only for non-profits.

Are you referring to a different method?

Avicebronabout 15 hours ago
That the US has failed as a country?
deepfriedchokesabout 10 hours ago
Privatizing the USPS would disproportionately harm those who vote for the politicians who are advocating for privatization, which would track.
Supermanchoabout 15 hours ago
It's a casualty of political corruption, both moral in terms of Party first politics and run-of-the-mill crony capitalism. That's what it means.

The consequences are far reaching for many existing industries. It may never be unraveled once initiated. It will give rise to more concentrated wealth and power. This is by design.

bulbarabout 11 hours ago
And the current situation, having a billionaire running the country, is fully intentional by a major part of the society.

Want to get rid of corruption? - Vote a representative of the source of that corruption (aka billionaires) into power... sorry, WHAT?

Billionaire is keen to make billionaire-friendly politics. A surprising headline? Apparently.

bulbarabout 12 hours ago
German railroad system worked pretty well, then it got partially privatized around 20 years ago. Supposingly cheaper that way. Turned out, cost were cut regarding infrastructure to make it cheaper. Today, the railroad system is terrible and the administration just agreed to spend 100 billion dollars on it.

Do you want quality sustained over decades? Then prioritize quality over cost and keep it public. Do you want inevitable enshitififaction and something that barely works good enough? Privatize it.

burnt-resistorabout 11 hours ago
Neoliberalism and libertarianism utopian bullshit ruin everything.
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charcircuitabout 14 hours ago
>much of what USPS does is unprofitable

The same could be said about many organizations within companies if you don't give them a proper budget. Once you start actually caring about being profitable it turns out that you can find how to do things in a way that is less wasteful. Cost acts as an incentive to reduce waste and if you remove it then there is no force to combat waste or unsustainable practices.

>It’s not that private entities won’t deliver postal service; it’s that they quite literally can’t.

If you paid someone $10,000 to deliver a letter to somewhere in the country I'm sure they could find a way to bring it there. It is not impossible.

bulbarabout 11 hours ago
Yeah, of course they can/could, it's just that it does not make sense from an economic point of view. Which directly circles back to the beginning "USPS is not profitable".