FR version is available. Content is displayed in original English for accuracy.
Advertisement
Advertisement
⚡ Community Insights
Discussion Sentiment
67% Positive
Analyzed from 1053 words in the discussion.
Trending Topics
#models#tool#model#tools#harnesses#agent#edit#harness#might#system

Discussion (19 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews
I definitely think models may be trained to use particular popular harnesses or expect certain fields in the editing-tool or other tool schemas. Rather than trying to conform to (or force) one particular format, my approach instead is to design flexibly enough to handle a wide array of possible inputs and tool calls, but that also help the agent recover whenever its tool calls truly can't be salvaged and have to return etrors, and to auto-normalize results whenever reasonable to do so. It really does make a very dramatic difference (I wouldn't have bothered to launch if I thought it wasn't a meaningful advance) but anyway, just wanted to share my perspective given that I live and breathe this problem all day, every day.
The curl command is extremely popular so models seem to be really good at using it.
Also I like that curl uses a bash syntax and my platform requires JSON payloads; it makes the separation clear to the agent. I find it to be very reliable.
Edit: found it, it’s called Grammar-Constrained Decoding (GCD)
But:
"Now I’m somewhat worried about the track we’re on here. Alternative tool schemas might not just be unfamiliar. They might be implicitly punished by post-training that optimizes for one particular, forgiving tool ecology."
Only implicitly?
--
Many decades ago when I was working on research related to using MOOs as a learning environment, you would add "tool calls" into the stream of text that a MOO object might generate, so your rich client would e.g. show a picture, load a web page in a frame, move you on a map, trigger a change in an on-screen representation of an object.
Everyone who tried this in MUD/MUSH/MOO clients ran into more or less the same problems that LLM clients do: any attempt to shoehorn control sequences into in-band content was riddled with security risks, objects accidentally triggering the wrong interface etc.; you could never truly communicate out-of-band.
The more I read about how agentic harnesses work, the less embarrassed I feel about the code twenty-something-year-old me wrote in a MOO client.
Is this still a thing? I thought Anthropic walked back the silent downgrades so now all the different domains downgrade non-silently.
- All models are terrible at generating line numbers for a proper diff, give up on them
- Some models (Owl-alpha) must have been post-trained on Codex transcripts, because they occasionally push its V4A patch format into any diff tool available
- Codex puts a lot of info in its system prompt about the desired patch style, making larger hunks instead of granular ones, etc
Only need ~650 tokens of system prompt for it to work. It’s pretty stellar.
[0] https://9p.io/sys/doc/sam/sam.html
Doesn't always work, for better performance you can kneel and start begging
> My strongest hypothesis is that this is not random deterioration but a training artifact. [...] Anthropic’s own client appears to expect and accept a fair amount of slop and repairs it, mostly silently
> If reinforcement learning happens in a harness like that, or a simulation of one, then slightly malformed tool calls can still complete the task and receive reward.
> Worse, the model may become very strongly adapted to the canonical Claude Code edit tool shape.
> Tool schemas are somewhere in the distribution and some shapes are close to what the model saw during post-training and some are far away.
Great article.
Interesting root cause hypothesis. Couldn't one simply strip the slop-handling from the RL env's harness to avoid this though?
I do agree on the walled garden being built here. Proprietary frontier models performing best in proprietary harnesses makes sense for Anthropic's interests.
It's amazing anyone watched the last 2 decades of tech's enshitification and wants to hook their wagon to this shitshow.