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#code#llm#understanding#llms#model#bottleneck#always#descriptions#understand#where

Discussion (50 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

alecbzabout 2 hours ago
We have LLMs try to generate descriptions of PRs for us and they're pretty universally disliked. They're always overly-complex descriptions of the mechanical changes and have no sense of motivation.

Also, a huge reason to understand the code yourself is to make sure the LLM isn't wrong, but this doesn't work if an LLM is itself generating the understanding.

storusabout 1 hour ago
My main gripe is with Claude deciding to make 200 lines of code in a PR I need to review, instead of 3 lines of code somebody who understands the original algorithm/intent would do. And coworkers just YOLOing changes without understanding them. Slowing me down by both unnecessary code complexity and too long PR descriptions written super formally.
3abiton18 minutes ago
I hate to be pedantic but you can finetune a skill to shape the PR message the way you like it. That being said, I did have exactly this issue you mentioned, but the defualt output can always be tuned.
csallen13 minutes ago
I don't know why you got downvoted, but I find myself wanting to say some version of what you just said over and over again. People write extremely lazy, straightforward prompts and expect the LLM's intelligence to take care of all of it. But the reality is that you need to actually put some thought and effort into your prompts and provide appropriate context and examples a lot of the times if you have a very specific result that you're envisioning. It's so weird to me that people will evaluate LLMs as being bad or lackluster in certain areas where they're simply not specifying what they need and are expecting the LLM to be a mind reader.

I'm not saying that the GP is necessarily doing this. But having repeatedly had plenty of success myself in getting LLMs to write things the way that I want, with a little bit of prompting, it seems likely

dylan604about 2 hours ago
Are these generated descriptions of LLM submitted changes or of human changes? If a human, shouldn't they be putting the motivation into the PR?
alecbzabout 2 hours ago
LLM-generated (or at least LLM-assisted), but a human's still the one submitting the PR for review.
dylan604about 2 hours ago
A PR with a minimal title and empty description should be refused at submission. If the human is so disinterested that they're using LLM generated code and then can't explain the purpose, that human should be prevent from making the PR. Working as a solo dev, it is very easy to be lazy like that, and I'm as guilty as anyone. Working in teams with actual reviews should absolutely have much more strict policies of what is considered a valid PR
vjvjvjvjghvabout 2 hours ago
I don’t know. From my experience I get pretty good descriptions of PRs if I ask the right questions and provide some context.
jollyllamaabout 1 hour ago
> provide some context

That's pretty much what a PR description is.

nsingh230 minutes ago
Work doesn't start with a PR description though. I'm assuming most people that are using LLMs start with some sort of document (plan, spec, intent, etc) which captures intent.

I guess you could also use all the session rollouts saved to disk that were related to that task, and distill them somehow.

baqabout 1 hour ago
The difference is an LLM can convert a stream of consciousness into well-formed prose for approximately free; I assume ‘provide some context’ means ‘brain dump’ in the OP
morkalorkabout 2 hours ago
I am so very tired of 2 page long PR descriptions for a 5 line change.
baqabout 1 hour ago
Some 5-line changes deserve a phd.

But yeah, most probably don’t.

avaerabout 1 hour ago
Maybe on your team, but I don't think AI PRs are universally disliked. The people that submit PRs without understanding them are universally disliked.

Have you tried writing in AGENTS.md or whatever to exactly explain what you like/dislike about the PR descriptions?

alecbzabout 1 hour ago
The PR descriptions are pretty universally disliked. We have centralized tooling that manages the prompts for that, I’m sure they’ve tried tuning it but maybe there’s more they could do.

Though I have some local workflows where I try to teach Claude about my writing style preferences via skills and examples, and it’s still not great.

thomblesabout 1 hour ago
It’s definitely possible to get much better output with prompting. I know, because when I’m faced with a “standard” PR description full of technical clutter, I can paste the link to Claude and ask “ELI5 what the problem actually is, any important context, what changed, and why that solves the problem.” And most of the time it converts it into something pretty good and readable.
bckrabout 1 hour ago
The basics are always so basic yet so necessary. Thanks for the recommendation.
w10-1about 2 hours ago
I agree with the problem but not the solutions.

The problem pre-dates LLM's: writing code that "works" but breaks the underlying model. Because it works, it always sounds reasonable and doesn't raise any flags.

Only someone - human or LLM - who holds the model as the standard would see that this working solution breaks the model.

(In theory, the model is to preserve scaling, flexibility or some other systemic feature not immediately invalidated by this working code, but as always the model itself could be bad.)

LLM's are not bad at giving an account of the model; indeed, fighting with the LLM over what the model is can clarify things. But LLM's will happily hold on to a stream of inconsistent statements as their model, so they are not the authority.

cyanydeezabout 1 hour ago
understanding a different modality of model interaction gave me proper insight into the specific problem. In visual models, even if the model understands the concept of face, or hand, or whatever, it doesn't know how to de-dupe a statement like "count the number of faces" until you give it a countable reference frame, so it can internally, place a box around a face and give that a coordinate, and then it can collect all the coordinates, and suddenly it's counting face in a picture.

The same thing happens in code. Things we're happily shifting from context to context, the model itself isn't doing. When it reads file1 for the main() clause, it will easily read file2's main() clause as the same. It'll internally merge these.

So if you do want to work with these models to achieve complex tasks, you basically do have to go reverse centaur and bend the code base to it's blindness. You can't use the same function names across the code base; each one needs to be dstinguishable; same thing with variables that represent seperate entity relationships.

You do that, and it suddenly because a whole lot smarter.

iainctduncanabout 2 hours ago
I am so dying to read more about the new/current/real bottleneck!

Where is the bottleneck? WHERE?? Tell me! No evidence needed, just lay it on, man to man, thought-leader to thought-leader!

euroderfabout 2 hours ago
> thought-leader to thought-leader!

This is my new chat-up line at networking events.

iainctduncan7 minutes ago
:-)
techpression37 minutes ago
It doesn’t matter, once you found the bottleneck there is a new one. Seems we changed the supposed bottleneck of writing code (as if it ever were, the world was producing far too much code before LLMs were even a thing) with about ten or so new ones, was it a good trade?
iainctduncanabout 2 hours ago
Oh wait, there it is, sitting over top of the fat part and under the cork...
euthymiclabsabout 3 hours ago
"I read the code." -Mitchell Hashimoto

Great code needs great understanding and agents need excellent guidance. Even in my current solo-dev work, I can't imagine making a production commit I haven't read until I understand it. I own the consequences of my code; that's a responsibility AI agents can't take.

sajithdilshan19 minutes ago
Understanding has always been the bottleneck. Sometimes AI helps with it like explaining things pretty well with diagrams. However, in general I agree that more code is being generated per developer and it's difficult to keep up with the phase of new changes and understand it.
dr_dshiv6 minutes ago
Hot take: I look at the level of abstraction that matters most to me. When I encounter cognitive debt (usually due to sleepy sessions where I’m mostly “encouraging” Claude), I ask it to step back to clarify the overall purpose. If I get really stuck, I have it visualize the processes involved. Usually, the hard part is giving specific enough feedback to get a specific enough response within a much broader set of working material.
hk__2about 2 hours ago
For me the solution has been to throw away the code I don’t understand. I let the agent write the code, and if when I read it it seems unclear or needs a lot of explanation from the agent, I just throw it away and start over, or do it by myself.
ihuman15 minutes ago
Is there a markdown version of the `/explain-diff` skill? The page says there are HTML, markdown, and Notion versions, but I just see HTML and Notion
tripleee6 minutes ago
reading everyone and their dogs post on "x is the new bottleneck" is the new bottleneck
a2ff6eeb042 minutes ago
Understanding was always the bottleneck. The way LLMs speed up your work is by letting you get code without taking the time to understand it. If you want to understand your code, LLMs are a net loss.

If you want to move faster with LLMs, you need to act like a manager and stop caring about what the LLM did. You just need to do the manual testing and make sure it works.

fabiensanglardabout 2 hours ago
While the tips are good to handle the volume, I still think this sets code owner on a dangerous path.

AI have limitation and hallucinate. Complex code will be explained in hallucinated way. At some point AI will be unable to write more because the arch has become too complex or the volume of code will be to high.

The article I would like to read would suggest how to force LLM to architect the code like a solid tower instead of a pile of unstable mud.

vjvjvjvjghvabout 2 hours ago
I feel if you still architect the code and guide the LLM, it will do a pretty good job. Maybe one day the LLM will be able to do all the system architecture but that’s probably still quite some time out. I don’t even know if that’s possible considering different business needs and other factors that aren’t technical.
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simonw40 minutes ago
This talk is also available on YouTube: https://youtu.be/WkBPX-oDMnA?is=ojFaLX2onMn3ARhi
cess116 minutes ago
"So I asked Claude to make me a video game — a command center where I do the port myself, step by step, watching the visible effects and the file tree evolve. It produced a UI where I click buttons to run the port step by step, with my old site and new site running side by side."

It's excruciating that this person is so close to reinventing moldable development and just keeps on skipping around it.

Yes, you should build tools that answer questions about your code, runtimes and systems. You should have tools that trivially allow you to incrementally and very immediately develop tools for inspection and getting clear answers. Going a roundabout way through some non-deterministic database to try and get there seems like a waste.

the_arun39 minutes ago
Understanding is always a bottleneck regardless of human or ai. But now we are at a different scale.
dtkavabout 1 hour ago
I've been using Geoffrey's /explain-diff skill in my replace-github-with-tailor-fit-personal-software journey, and I'm liking it. I recommend at least giving it a try.
wseqyrkuabout 2 hours ago
If you try to spec the problem with all the painful details for the machine to understand, you will end up with a rust codebase.
threethirtytwo22 minutes ago
This is a temporary bottleneck. AI is moving so fast that this will change. Wait six months and this article is no longer relevant.

About a year ago most people were still typing code. Having an agent do ALL code was crazy.

Within a year or two years at most, a lot of people will stop trying to understand code. The onus will shift to testing and QAing.

bigstrat2003about 2 hours ago
Understanding has always been the bottleneck. That's why LLMs aren't actually helpful: they speed up the part which is easy (typing characters into your editor), but are neutral or even harmful on the part which is hard (understanding the problem and how best to solve it).
causalabout 1 hour ago
It seems like humans have a limited "understanding budget" but LLMs force us to spend that understanding on waaaaay more code and projects than ever before.
stronglikedanabout 1 hour ago
The part which is easy is still time consuming, so LLMs are helpful. They're just not a silver bullet.
elendilmabout 1 hour ago
Understanding is expensive. And hence valuable.

LLMs usually points to the most idiotic future trajectory on my work, and I have to curse it inorder to let it keep up with my refined understanding.

But what else would one expect from a probabilistic weighted next token predictor, other than to conduct probabilistic search which are 99.99% deadends.

But LLMs can pave the way towards constructing resilient and correct architecture which can be iterated fast by a human.

Architecture and determinism is where my money is in.

jbdamaskabout 2 hours ago
pfft...I'm way past understanding
ch4s3about 2 hours ago
Overstanding is the new horizon
stronglikedanabout 1 hour ago
That's already been co-opted by the sovereign citizen movement, so use with caution lest you be judged for it.