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Discussion (88 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews
"github.com/yourusername/toast/internal/components/breadcrumbs" "github.com/yourusername/toast/internal/components/closedialog" "github.com/yourusername/toast/internal/components/commandpalette" "github.com/yourusername/toast/internal/components/editor"
My emacs days are 1999 during my "functional or get out" phase, but my .emacs had close to 4000 lines in it, including xterm mouse support, a clone of midnight commander + sftp to a wehbost and deep integration with ctags/cscope/c++filt. There was even a line by line debugger with custom .gdbinit commands - look at the php project's gdbinit[1] if you want an idea of how to walk your own super special data structures.
You can't put Emacs in an IDE comparison and say anything about features without at least one person saying "well, actually".
I eventually switched to vim but that had to do with needing to ssh into 100k+ machines on support rotation & never having emacs on any of them.
[1] - https://github.com/php/php-src/blob/master/.gdbinit
My friend on eMacs say something similar, but you don't really need as many plugins as people typically use. There's lots of native ways to do things. It's totally fine to prefer NerdTree over the native netrw but it's not like you can't do file exploring. Hell, I use fzf most times (`:GFiles`). But what I don't like is when people confidently say "x can't do y" when it can. I'll give people a break if it requires plugins or complicated commands, but native ones? It just shows ignorance.
While we're on the topic, stop using Esc, use <C-[>. You don't need Esc. And type `set -o vi` into bash/zsh. It's still worth learning your tools. You'll find lots of solutions to problems that only exist because of ignorance. Maybe those solutions are better, but the bigger problem seems to be ignorance. It's fine to be ignorant too! There's a shit ton of docs, no one expects you to read it all. But it's a good place to start
But most people don't know about <C-[>, which works across your terminal, It isn't just a vim thing.
> toast is for the developer who wants to stay in their terminal without spending hours getting it up to snuff.
I think he knows you can get anything you want in emacs/vim. The pitch is that toast is batteries-included.
Long time ago, in mid-2000-s I tried to switch to Emacs or Vim from Visual Studio.
I wanted to have a simple project file tree as a side panel and multiple editor tabs on the right. I spent a week toying with various elisp scripts, Vim plugins, and digging out information from a then-moribund XEmacs mailing list.
And I couldn't do what I wanted in the end. Nothing worked seamlessly or reliably.
Can this be done out-of-the-box now?
Yes, with built-in packages there are at least two different ways - speedbar, or Dired in a side window. And what even "out-of-the-box" means? In Emacs-land packages are not like extensions in other editors and IDEs, they more like recipe books. You can collect literally over a thousand of them without ever explicitly loading them until that specific moment that happens once in a decade and you won't ever notice their presence until then. And there are tons and tons of different packages that do the sidebar directory listing - treemacs, dired-sidebar, dired-subtree, direx, ztree, etc. You seriously thought that in 50 effing years nobody, just nobody thought of making a sidebar directory tree that works in Emacs?
> Nothing worked seamlessly or reliably.
Skill issue. You. You couldn't figure it out. And then decided it can't be done, period. Brilliant.
That or most people have used NerdTree for a decade
A project tree is NOT a file list. It's a persistent panel that allows you to navigate within the project. It should also integrate with tools like recursive search (so it doesn't recurse into ignored folders like `node_modules`), build tools, code intelligence, and a debugger.
Or use any of the various file tree packages in [M]ELPA
Idk the point of my comment but I feel you.
I need a terminal that just works. If it doesn't work out of the box with sensible defaults, it is indeed not up to snuff, and therefore thrown away immediately. Don't ask me to use your buggy-vibe coded thing if it's not up to snuff, right?
This is coming from someone who did spend hundreds of hours learning to customize their terminal, their vim environment, and put all of it in source control to rot away.
I just made a bash script that shells into the container (or starts it if it is not already running) and in there everything is set up.
This seems like all those UI designers who have a crack at redoing Wikipedia and then fail miserably because they just plaster whatever trend on top of something that is universally good.
I'm really sad that those people keep releasing those tools to other people via cookie-cutter websites filled with misinformation instead of just enjoying them privately.
It's not a happy world. It's dystopian. I really don't like how unskilled people get confidence for creating novelty using AI and then dare to put themselves on a pedestal next to bona fide creators. It is robbing them of trust and authenticity.
My neighbor, who barely survived through high school, happily begged me to buy her book: "I created something very special to me. I'm asking my friends to support me by ordering my book. There is a lot of useful information inside based on years of research and observations, and months of putting everything together." I knew it would be complete and utter bullshit, yet I was curious. I ordered "the book". It is chock-full of misspelled words and the substance is just pure garbage. It's a waste of human potential, it's a waste of resources, but hey, now we have yet another fucking "author". Terrific.
Why would that make you really sad? If something scratches your itch, it might scratch someone else's, too. It's kind of like blogging for yourself when you solve an issue.
We need this terminal TUI nonsense trend to completely die.
Stop using TUIs! They are garbage.
Honestly, the GUI is more intuitive and everyone can use it.
I have so much shit now that I have custom workspaces to deal with because "repository" has stopped being the correct boundary to think about software development (for me). It would be great if _any_ decent editor would support these, especially Zed.
Christ.
> Sees "Claude"
Now almost 90% of projects on GitHub including existing projects are now slop or are adding slop.
Many projects are getting contaminated with AI, and even Linux is getting contaminated with this.
There is a list of projects that have non-slop alternatives one can use instead.
https://codeberg.org/ethical-foss/open-slopware
The idea that there can be no high quality use of LLMs to aid software development is lacking a lot of nuance.
LLMs are just another multiplier. A liability in the hands of incompetence and an asset in the hands competence.
Another tool, knowledge will always empower those further than those without knowledge.
Yes.
To quote the repository:
"slop: Anything generated by AI, typically code, books, articles, or images."
If you are reviewing AI generated code, you are already reviewing slop which is a lose-lose situation.
To me, it's just yet another bland low-contrast dark mode interface.
Also, vim has mouse support. Probably shouldn't use a clanker to write your readme if you're not going to take the time to do a basic fact check.
I wrote this article a while back on how to build a great terminal editor that's better than Emacs and VIM [1], you might find it interesting!
[1] https://gist.github.com/taoeffect/086220456e736cceb30d68834d...
Wow. This is brilliant. Nobody ever. Not once. Not even theoretically. Nobody in 50 years of Emacs' existence ever tried that. Not a single programmer ever said this or attempted to do this. With exception of insignificant fools such as XEmacs, Zmacs, Hemlock, Climacs, Edwin, JEmacs, Yi, Lem, Guile Emacs, Remacs, emacs-ng, and the eleven thousand config frameworks that were going to fix it from the inside. I salute your effort, and may the spirit of your burned tokens please the digital gods and may they accept your sacrifice. Godspeed.
What I love about Vim and Emacs is that they taught me humility. I am grateful to my younger self for forcing me to learn them, deeply. They cut my enormously inflated hubris down to size, and I believe they made me not only a better programmer but a better person. I won't tell you to try that path, because that would sound patronizing, and would undo this entire paragraph.