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Discussion (291 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews
Yeah, it's only a name, that name represent a reciprocal want to work closer together and do something. What, how, we will figure it out, the fact that people on both side of the exchange are all for it says so.
We're not idiots we know there will be hurdle, on one side you have the federal country that managed to convince the french Quebec to stay and on the other you have 27 countries who managed to convince each other to work together, we will figure it out.
The text of the speech is at https://www.pm.gc.ca/en/news/speeches/2026/09/17/prime-minis...
The wording is such that it sounds like he is pushing a very ambitious portfolio. It appears that the idea is to make this a model for a new alliance that will include other countries over time.
The other deals Canada has made with the EU have been very substantive. CETA was the first major trade deal that the EU passed.
That made me do a double take and then rewind (I watched the full speech in the background), that's a fairly seismic shift if followed through and will reshape the internet over the next few decades (go look at a current fibre map for global internet links, they pretty much all route through the US and land in the UK), having an alternative path through Canada into the UK/Europe is a big change.
Not exactly. The sentiment I see is more like ‘buy anything but USA’.
There’s already visa free travel from Canada to the EU and trade deals in progress. It’s unclear what specific benefits the associate member deal provides.
> In his address, Carney said Canada and Europe could strengthen their "strategic autonomy" through "deep co-operation in the full range of strategic capabilities, including critical minerals".
> He said Canada could supply liquefied natural gas and hydrogen to support European energy security, while benefiting from Europe's expertise in clean-energy technologies.
> He also proposed pooling technological resources and deepening "people to people ties", including allowing young people to "work, study and live where they want on either side of the Atlantic" through Canada joining the EU's Erasmus+ programme.
Anyway, I would love it if Canada joins the free movement zone and Schengen eventually however despite not knowing what is this "associate member" thing is sounds like a stretch. Imagine though, how cool would be to travel to between America and Europe without your passport, like a domestic flight.
I'm really not fan of the trend to devide this rock in space into zones where you need a reason and permission based on that reason to travel. Can't be happier that there's a progress towards making the world a friendlier place.
Much more likely is looser employment visas and maybe allowing Canadians have an easier time moving for things like retirement, etc. I'm not holding my breath, though.
Some want to be ensured Canada's sovereignty isn't changed. As this as of right now is a news headline I get their point of view for now.
Unlike the United States, we don't put immigrants in cages either. Instead we give them opportunities to work and contribute.
People are welcome to apply and come.
No need to send everyone back southbound or to the middle-east when we could have been sending them northbound instead!
Oh Canada, won't you please reconsider? We're giving you our doctors and engineers! They're just on welfare temporarily, I promise!
Also a trade partnership is not a zero sum game. Can also be that everybody will benefit by more trade, more cooperation and more exchanges for young people.
I assume they already talk about them privately beforehand. Carney first made a speech seeking some kind of enhanced status within the EU. Then von der Leyen said basically "Yeah we'd love that". Now Carney says "Great, let's do it."
It would be embarrassing if Carney's first speech had instead been met with silence.
So how many steps ahead do they choreograph these announcements? Did Carney show a draft of his speech today to people in the EU last week? "This is where I'd like us to be at next week. What do you guys think?"
Anyone who's worked in international diplomacy or UN-type institutions that would know this? I'm just interested in the mechanics of such an announcement.
Carney and von der Leyen haven't really talked about what this would mean but it seems safe to assume that they (plus leaders of the major EU member states) have been talking about it, at least in broad strokes.
They did make an exception for Cypress, so I suppose there’s some kind of precedent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Pierre_and_Miquelon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Island
Also, I think the constraint to be in the EU is that it has to be "an European country". It's relatively vague.
well, not for much longer lol
Will the Canadian job market improve or suffer here? Does anyone know of any research that will determine if this would be beneficial for Canadians? Naively, I think it'll be harder to compete with Europeans for jobs.
FT is a pro transatlanticism but has a somewhat negative take on all of this
https://www.ft.com/content/2e2e0c1e-51d6-49e2-9f4a-6ef793908...
Eh, we're less divided than people who think so realize, we're more divided than people who think we're united realize. Not really an issue on that particular case.
> Importantly, many EU countries have not ratified CETA
Like a lot of deals, including a big part of dicussion in the Canada/US talk, CETA's issues are about food.
But the thing is, unlike a lot of deal like Mercosur, CA/EU is very vast even excluding food, for BOTH sides of the talk. So I'm pretty sure we can figure things out.
So if Canada tries to make friends with anyone other than the US, it's a hostile act?
Makes it all the more obvious that USA is Canada's abusive partner, that they should have broken up with a long time ago.
158 Canadian soldiers died defending the United States at the US's request after 9/11. Canadian fighter jets helped to patrol the skies in the US at the US's request after 9/11.
The insults coming from the US Secretary of Defence and President are not unnoticed. They are logged and remembered.
Bad idea. Canada (as well as all other nations) should let the US fight and lose its wars by itself.
He supported US in Afghanistan, but refused to support war in Iraq since he didn't consider there to be sufficient evidence of WMD
I'm not doing advocacy here, I'm giving pointers on how to come to a deeper understanding of what is going on.
It is also important to understand that the EU is directly attacking this doctrine with this proposal. You are free to agree with the EU. Again, I'm just giving something to guide people to a deeper understanding of what is going on beyond the surface level playground politics of it all. There's more going on than that.
(Personally I would say I "disagree" with the Monroe doctrine but the sort of national/international structure I would actually want is not even remotely on the table, so... my opinion is thereby of even less import than a random other opinion drawn from "the masses" for choosing "E, none of the above" when that was not given as an option in the first place.)
I'm not doing advocacy here, I'm giving pointers on how to come to a deeper understanding of what is going on.
It is also important to understand that the United States is directly attacking this doctrine by just sitting there. You are free to agree with the United States. Again, I'm just giving something to guide people to a deeper understanding of what is going on beyond the surface level playground politics of it all. There's more going on than that.
I say that precisely because I know that in reality most people aren't that interested. Which feel like I'm insulting people or something, but it's just the reality, we don't all have time to dig into absolutely everything all the time, and if you're not interested that's fine. But if you are, this is the best pathway to understanding this at a deeper level than the playground level.
The trade deficit and debt is in USD it's a line in the ledger that is somewhat fine and sustainable as long as the world stays on the USD as the currency of record. Countries for now are happy to keep storing their reserves in US bonds - Canada holds 600-700 billion in US debt. Japan over a trillion.
I genuinely don’t understand this move through the lens of realpolitik: they’re mad at Trump, so they’re going to offend CFR et al who are aligned on Fortress America and neo-empire by threatening to take a critical vassal for the EU?
Okay — but you just turned being mad at MAGA into the MIC deep state viewing you as an enemy and therefore further military alliance with any EU member unviable. All because the EU couldn’t stomach four years of crass taunts from a TV conman.
Total MAGA victory.
I believe the terms in human relationships are coercive control and social isolation.
A whole lot of Trump's psychology has always been "it's your fault I hurt you" for the longest time — it's a very clear undercurrent in how he treated his first wife.
He's an abuser. And now so is the USA.
Canada is bound to look for new trade opportunities in the face of that.
You make a deal with Trump, it's always worse than what you had previously.
Then, no mater what you do, he breaks the deal 3 months later with some kind of implied military threat if you complain.
All the comparisons with personal relationships here are silly. This isn't a marital split. This someone who thinks they're the only customer saying they don't want to buy something and the vendor saying fair enough, I'll sell it to someone else.
He somehow thinks that he's going to make the US more respected by constantly jabbing at his allies
It's very frustrating talking about this subject with Americans online[1]. In general they seem to have blinders on regarding the magnitude of the consequences of their democratic choice in leadership.
I get a sense that a feeling of learned helplessness has beset the American people and that they're not able to imagine a world of agency and action against authoritarianism.
I don't know what can shake them out of their torpor, but I do know that the longer they take to wake up the higher the price of action will be.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43485649#43487443
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49403201
If polls are to be believed, the majority of Americans do not, in fact, fit that description.
Why not?
I don't think anyone really says it's an hostile act but both countries, Canada and the US will have to decide what it means for their ongoing relationship.
Canada is free to get closer to Europe and the US is free to be displeased about it.
Maybe it works out well for Canada or maybe it doesn't.
> Makes it all the more obvious that USA is Canada's abusive partner
Why anthropomorphize geopolitics?
This is just just a big fish throwing its weight around like all big fishes do. Russia does it with its neighbors, China does it as well and India and Europe are not shy about it either.
It's just the name of the game and its been happening since the dawn of time.
Some states use force, others bribe or cajole but in the end they all try to influence their neighbors in a way that suits their interests especially if these neighbors are smaller in terms of population/economy/military etc...
The fact that so many people are shocked by such news these days is because everyone drank the cool aid of the End of History and forgot that spheres of influence still exists and that the rule of law was nothing more than gentleman's agreement that could be thrown out of the window at a moment's notice without second thoughts.
Trump does. His inner circle does. His supporters do.
> Canada and the US will have to decide what it means for their ongoing relationship.
Sounds like an abusive husband's version of "think of what this will do to the children."
> Why anthropomorphize geopolitics?
Because some people need to have complex issues explained to them in ways that are simple to understand. Particularly when it comes to issues involving Trump politics, the people who desperately need to understand these issues are those who also seem to need the issues explained to them like they are a fourth-grader.
Hence, the replies you have been seeing.
https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraines-future-in-nato-prec...
edit since I guess the timestamp isn't visible to everyone: Jul 12, 2023, 5:56 PM GMT+2
That said he is the symptom not the disease and that we absolutely should take seriously.
Even if it doesn't come to pass the trajectory the US is on is possible enough we have to consider it.
If your ex starts dating your best friend directly after breakup, would you consider it a hostile act?
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenland_crisis
[2] https://www.politico.eu/article/donald-trump-nato-policy-def...
[3] https://www.cadtm.org/Trump-Europe-and-the-international-neo...
[4] https://www.cnn.com/2026/03/31/europe/trump-lashes-out-europ...
"breakup" is doing a huge amount of counterfactual sanewashing here.
https://www.npr.org/2025/09/30/nx-s1-5557232/hegseth-general...
Which amendment contains the clause claiming the rest of the contract survives if parts are just unilaterally deleted by one side?
The Posse Comitatus Act makes it a criminal statute that bars anyone from willfully using federal military forces — the Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Air Force, and Space Force — "to execute the laws" unless expressly authorized by the Constitution or an act of Congress.
1) Why would none of the ~20-25 blue states want to join the EU? Why would it be preferable for the big ones to go it alone in an increasingly fractious world?
2) In what way does the EU not offer much? If this is the case, how did they end up with 28 members joining, another 5 or so waiting to do so, and only 1 ever leaving?
The point isn't about being pro/negative the EU, it's about providing something thoughtful, as opposed to just throwing out your opinions.
That's entirely what I'm afraid of
There's a lawsuit [1] on the way related to the Epstein files so this Canada-EU topic gives Trump the perfect opportunity to divert the attention.
[1] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2026/09/lawsuit-trump-do...
Closer to home: there have been a record number of firefighter fatalities this year. It is partially climate change, and partially redirecting national guard troops to harass folks in DC and pick up litter.
According to this morning’s news, he’s also micromanaging of firefighting efforts to make them less effective, more expensive, more dangerous, and to maximize future fire risk.
Basically he’s dictated head on attacks to fire fronts, and complete suppression. All experts and firefighters agree it is better to contain the borders of the fires instead, and only fight fires on the interior if it makes ecological sense or protects buildings, lives, etc. (After all, the burn on the interior is necessary for forest health, and also removes fuel.)
Then there’s the NASA thing, where he didn’t want to pay $10M for building maintenance, so instead put $10B of active missions at risk, and threw out > $100M of specialized equipment (or auctioned it off at tenths of pennies on the dollar; probably to US adversaries).
It's at least a decade but now I'm starting to think two decades
And the problem is since people have short memories there's going to be a Trump 2.0 doing a full speedrun back to destroying democracy as hard and as fast as possible, fueled by Heritage Foudation
So we may be recovering every decade at this point
I mean Bush plowed the economy into the ground plus stop-loss endless war and yet here we are again
What it won't be is as influential as it was for a long time, if ever.
The damage isn't a "Next President" problem, it's already a generational problem.
The international rules/trade based order was predicated on both sides agreeing that those were the rules, when one side unilaterally decides to tear it up and then demand the same advantages they had before they tore it up, the other has to respond, We can't ignore it and hope the problem goes away.
They chose to open Pandora's box on this one, the rest of us are just figuring out what that looks like going forwards.
I think it'll get much worse before we can even hope it gets a tiny bit better. Politics are fucked, education is fucked, petrol is fucked, the stock market is extra fucked, morales are fucked, etc.
So if you mean "when do we start winning like in the 80s", it's probably never, too many things are breaking down or on the verge of breaking down, things with way too much momentum to fix by simply getting the other side of the political spectrum in control for 4 years. Not even talking about China planning for the next 100 years when Trump can't even determine if he'll shit his pants in the next 15 minutes
Do you support pursuing criminal charges for current members of the executive branch and their counterparts in private industry? Do you support pursuing maximum sentences, including asset seizure and the death penalty? Do you support suspending or otherwise not honoring presidential pardons? Will you cooperate with ICCC warrants?
If you think my litmus test is too harsh, consider the fact that the Bush family made its fortune by illegally selling to the Nazis, was caught literally organizing a military coup in the US, and was instrumental in ripping out a perfectly good national passenger train network.
In response they got a slap on the wrist and used their illegal gains to control the white house. Twice.
And ever comment critical about this is being downvoted by bots. Since when did HN became a nonsensical propaganda machine for EU?
Or more specifically, for those paying attention many of us have to come around to the belief that it doesn't really matter who comes after Trump, We need to not be as dependent on the Americans because we can simply no longer trust them not to do it again since they already did it twice.
The issue is simply more pressing for the Canadians because they share a land border, 70% of their trade is with the US and they have threatened annexation.
It's not less pressing really for us Europeans either, a lot of people/politicians have had to ask some awkward questions like "Just how exposed are we to the Americans if they continue on this path" and the answer is one they really don't like.
The world order as it was benefited the Americans and us in myriad ways but they seem to have decided they no long want things that way so it entirely comes down to what we do in response to that.
In some ways an unreliable ally is worse than an enemy because you can generally predict what your enemies intentions will be.
It seems like a lot of Americans get discomfited when you point this out even the ones who don't support Trump/the current US Gov but it's not personal, on the scale of countries it can't really be personal.
We simply can't trust them as a country or as a government as much as we previously could and I don't see that changing for the better in at least a generation if they even want it to.
https://www.ft.com/content/9cd8cc79-e98a-449f-a903-609b034a5...
So both the EU and Canada are compliant US vassals despite the talk.
Why doesn't the US provoke Russia in Siberia? We know the answer: There are no proxies.
In two years this will have fizzled out like any other marketing blitzes by the EU (remember Gaia-X?). I say this as a disillusioned EU citizen. This institution doesn't have any ambition left.
(you can downvote all you want, don't shoot the messenger!)
https://www.ft.com/content/7b1a00f1-6842-4f5e-ace4-d6a57e98b...
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2026/sep/17/trump-marco-...
They are currently targeting civilian populations there by weaponizing access to necessities. They have intentionally created multiple humanitarian crises, then rerouted food and energy imports through Florida companies for private benefit.
This is a long way of asking: Can the US west coast become an associate EU member too? Here in California, the Sierra Nevada and deserts of the southwest are already 99% of the wall we’d need to protect our border from maga zealots.
So, I guess the opposition supports associate membership in everything but name.
It doesn't matter what the truth of the matter is. What Dear Leader says is used as a scare tactic and marching orders for the underlings to believe and repeat. If you live/interact with conservative people long enough you see the pattern. There's absolute trust in what their leadership says, but skepticism for any criticism of those same talking points.
So all this tweet is doing is seeding doubt, and distrust among the electorate. It doesn't have to be true, but if the goal is to maintain control it looks like this. The Canadian Conservatives are still extremely pro-USA but have learned to keep their opinions close to the chest because they're currently politically unpoular.
Not sure what's meant by that... People won't start swimming over the atlantic ocean. And flights to Canada aren't really cheap, by any means.
The closest approximation is the united states under NAFTA.
There is lots of poverty in America, but the border doesn't appear to have an issue. I fail to see how this would be much different (except more difficult due to an ocean and better security/screening checks on airport arrivals).
Apparently, even Canadian conservatives are happy to grovel at the feet of the Burger Reich and their supreme leader.
It's a bit rich to say this when nothing yet is known.
If Carney or the EU did not want the oppositions to start speculating regarding what it entails, maybe they should have talked about exactly what an associate membership means and what of sort of things could be expected from such a move.
Maybe they are wrong or maybe you are and maybe it will involve EU taxes and EU regulations or maybe since you are absolutely certain of what it entails you have some sort of insider information that nobody else has?
Until such a time as everyone knows and understand what a possible associate membership means for the EU and Canada, then nothing should be considered off the table and it is justified to ask questions and get some clarifications on all of this.
what's that?
If this is the motivation, it's a grossly undemocratic move.
I don't get how folks who hyperventilate about Trump being a threat to democracy can look at stuff like this and cheer.
It really stretches my imagination to the limit to see how your suspicion carries this move all the way to being comparable to what Trump has been doing.
The chances of Canada getting everyone to go along with this are close to zero. (As are the chances of Alberta actually seceding).
It's just political theater
I mean, they are getting everything the want with the Fed gov building pipelines and other infra to aid them. The east/west from years back was the company didn't want to budge on the route through Quebec and decided to walk, Keystone was the US cancelling. Trudeau got the pipeline to the west coast done and it's doing a million barrels a day almost now. Plus others to east and Churchill look like they are in the works. Only so many welders
As for the secession referendum, it's currently polling at 20-30% and it's not a real referendum, its a referendum to hold a referendum.
Many people on both sides of the Atlantic wrongly think Quebec is more compatible with Europe than the rest of Canada because they speak French, but almost the exact things Quebec separatists care most about are the things the EU wouldn't let them control.
Indeed, this is historically a forum with lots of "temporarily embarrassed billionaires".
My observation is the opposite of the GP - that labor identity and consciousness (not "liberalism") is rising here, pushed in no small part by the transformation in labor value that LLMs have caused.
> should the Government of Alberta commence the legal process required under the Canadian Constitution to hold a binding provincial referendum on whether or not Alberta should separate from Canada?
So it's a referendum on whether or not to start the process towards possibly, maybe, holding a referendum in the future.
https://www.elections.ab.ca/elections/referendum/
They are a democracy, they don't have to get "everyone to go along with this" they just have to get the majority to go along with it.
More critically, the Numbered Treaties (6, 7, and 8, and to a lesser extent 4 and 10) make the entire idea, for all practical purposes, a legal dead end. These are nation-to-nation covenants with the Crown and not with the province.
To leave with its borders intact, Alberta would have to negotiate constitutional amendments with Ottawa and the other provinces, while securing affected First Nations’ consent to any transfer or replacement of their treaty relationships with Canada in a situation where Alberta has almost no leverage.
Good luck.
It would be lovely to get Europe off of Russian energy imports.
This has bred an economy of rent seekers and real estate at the expense of almost everything else. There are reasons that the best and brightest of Canada enthusiastically leave en masse to the place that Canadians claim to detest most of all, which leads to a sort of self loathing complex with the ones that stay; they are utterly mystified by the idea that anyone with any skills/talent whatsoever would want to move to Canada, it's truly mind boggling. (This is why I prefer Quebec - it's got enough people in it that really like Quebec a lot).
Retconned horseshit that emanates from idiot chambers.
The US is a big country next door, and historically the two economies and trade have been very tightly integrated. So Alberta hooks into the US pipeline system, as cooperative players in a continental energy system, and so does Ontario. There was never a critical reason to make significant East/West pipelines, in the same way that the US has loads of LNG export terminals (they were actually converted import terminals), and being connected to their LNG system meant it made little sense to spend billions of new terminals.
Not to mention some geographic issues. Running a pipeline through the Canadian shield is not a trivial matter. Possible, but it's much easier though the flyover US states.
And most hilarious of all about this, the reviled national energy program (NEP) -- you know, the one that 0% of Albertans understand but they're sure it was to screw them -- was the federal government proposing a national pipeline system. Alberta had a massive tantrum about it. Instead Alberta was constrained to selling oil at a massive discount to the US for decades.
>There are reasons that the best and brightest of Canada enthusiastically leave en masse to the place that Canadians claim to detest most of all
ROFL. Good god. The fact that you're in Quebec, and you celebrate Quebec (by far the most dysfunctional part of the country, largely a welfare state propped up by the rest of Canada, primarily Ontario), has to be the most hilarious part of this comical fan-fiction nonsense.
Now you seem to have a hilarious take on Canada, but in the real world the "West" anointed the US as the centre of power (the largest population base, unharmed by two world wars in a row). This means that people from everywhere generally centralized there, for media, for technology, and so on. Thanks to the current idiocracy and the accelerating decline of that country, the whole thing has reversed.
Do you think the referendum in question is not a political theater?
I don't know much, but it stands to me that the EU association is magnitudes more serious.
Alberta selling oil to USA is, by itself, like 20% of Canada's entire GDP.
And 70% of all other exports go to USA too. So yeah it is mostly just theater because there's a loud mouth idiot in the White house.
They're doing some lip-service and just hoping it will blow over when Trump is gone.
wow, no, it's not "like 20%" at all. not even close.
the entire oil and natural gas industry was 3.8% of canada's GDP in 2025.
how did you even come up with that number?
I recall on my first trip here ending up in hospital, being mistaken for an American and shown one price list, only for my insurance company to get on the phone and promptly a new price list appeared and a lot of "We're sorry we thought you were American" from the staff.
And prior to the mobile web dealing with Ontario hotels was like haggling in a Turkish bazaar with an obnoxious layer of passive aggression on top.
It's a weird two-front war where people tend to answer the social question and ignore the economic one, but the economic question has not done any favors to the EU or the US for that matter
Self-isolation (whether a nation or a person) is not a good solution to hypothetical bad actors. Society is built on cooperation and trust
Ah, no who am I kidding. These usually worry about the opposite. What if EU manages to resist to those projects and remains liberal democracies?
But I don't think you can just elect Hitler in every nation and then get them to cooperate. They will inevitably want more and when they do they become aggressive. At which point I guess people will reconsider.
Smells like a long-term attempt to break the EU from within TBH.
Who are the adversaries?
And the opposite case is also a quick way to degenerate cases: if Canada devalued cooperation, what is the argument for provinces to not do the same? And thus it would only fuel Quebec and Alberta separatism.
You already see it with Brexit which is clearly opening further "us-vs-them" outlooks in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
That is a strange take.