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Discussion Sentiment

72% Positive

Analyzed from 3548 words in the discussion.

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#models#flash#model#mimo#https#more#deepseek#pro#frontier#open

Discussion (158 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

rao-vabout 2 hours ago
I know we have strong views on what a truly open model is (open weights, open training data, open training code etc.) but I really like how transparent they’ve been about the training of this model.

The realtime dashboard they shared during training (https://mimo.xiaomi.com/rl/) was an incredible learning and teaching tool for me, and they’ve been unusually comprehensive in sharing details about their methodology (check out that tech report - it's got lots of clever behind the scene tricks like Google or Deepseek writeups) and benchmark scores (even the stuff they didn’t do well on).

If you’re releasing an open model going forward, please consider offering the community more of this transparency!

MangoCoffeeabout 1 hour ago
maybe this is why Dario want to slow down AI development and all the big AI labs in the USA is singing the same song.

whey they all singing the same tune. it make me question what is their real motives.

they are afraid of Chinese good enough LLM model killing their margin. we already have story about US companies switch some task to use cheaper Chinese model hosted on Neoclouds.

aeyes31 minutes ago
The reason is money. They want regulation to make it harder for new competitors and competitors from other countries.

They invested billions into training the models but there is no competitive advantage, we see that within a couple of months everyone catches up. There is no way to profitability unless they get some policies to shields them against competitors that can't comply with the regulatory requirements.

That is also why there are things like Claude, Codex and Cursor. They are trying hard to build a customer relationship with a higher switching cost that hopefully sticks.

But the problem is that the AI buildout has become a large percentage of GDP. So obviously the government wants to keep it going because these companies are pumping enormous amounts of money into the economy.

jwolfeabout 1 hour ago
Please explain how putting an upper bound on how good the strongest models can be prevents cheaper less strong models from catching up, rather than enabling it. I do not understand this argument at all.
rbjorklinabout 1 hour ago
The general idea is that Anthropic/OpenAI is pushing this narrative as an attempt at "Regulatory Capture"[1] which would allow them to make it prohibitively expensive for anyone but them to enter the market thus stifling competition.

* 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture

lytedevabout 1 hour ago
I don't think "putting an upper bound" was OPs phrasing?
bellowsgulchabout 1 hour ago
That’s not the argument.
Pxtl44 minutes ago
Dario has always wanted the AI development to slow down and be more careful. Safer AI development was a core reason that Anthropic split off from OpenAI.

What's different today is that now all the big LLM firms want to slow down AI development. When men like Musk and Altman (both known for habitually shooting their mouths off and saying whatever they need to whoever needs to hear it regardless of truth) suddenly agree with Amodei, that's when things start to smell off.

verdverm20 minutes ago
> What's different today is that now all the big LLM firms

not all, just a few American ones (~PayPal Mafia + Google), there are other big American LLM developers (notables include Nvidia, Meta, and Palantir) that do not agree

earthnailabout 2 hours ago
Thanks so much for sharing this. As someone who mostly watches from the sideline, can you share what you can see in this dashboard that someone like me can't see? Is it the metrics themselves that they measure (the metrics tab is absurdly detailed), something in the notices, or something else I missed?
rao-vabout 1 hour ago
I might turn this into a blogpost if folks are interested, but my god there is so much clever info in that dashboard.

Here is one really neat bit:

A cutting edge training idea (for agents, it's been used elsewhere for ages) is on-policy RL, basically, it's not enough to say "here is an end to end agentic sequence (including tool calls etc.) that is perfect" you want to say "here is a sequence you might actually have generated that turns out to be correct".

Basically, it's more training efficient to improve models with small tweaks to do more of the right thing they are already doing sometimes than from some perfect oracular "this is the way" answer.

(if you've ever tried to teach humans new skills, you’ve probably noticed this too!)

When you do that, you care about how far the model you are updating (improving) has deviated from the one being used to generate rollouts (agentic rollouts for hard problems can take hours with lots of tool calls, so you can't keep redeploying every slight improvement).

Lo and behold, the dashboard literally has:

partial/avg_staleness (likely the measure of how many micro iterations the "generate answers" model is behind the "improving based on the occasional right answer" model)

train_infer_diff/new_infer/kl (a more direct KL divergence based way of measuring how differently the two models generate tokens)

How cool is that?!

And don't get me started on the clever ideas hiding behind dynsam/avg@n ...

jeffmcjunkin23 minutes ago
I'd read the heck out of that blogpost. You have my interest.
dgellowabout 1 hour ago
Please do
tancopabout 1 hour ago
The best thing they did is being open about all the setbacks they had to deal with. They logged every restart with a reason, talked about dropping a cyber dataset after it degraded coding benchmarks. Also published real time training loss, benchmark scores after every checkpoint and running cost estimates.

Really the only thing missing was dataset descriptions, the dashboard only had random IDs like "dataset-zrso". I guess it's their lawyers fault.

verdvermabout 2 hours ago
the existence, who else has a live dashboard for the RL late-training?
ignoramousabout 1 hour ago
> got lots of clever behind the scene tricks like Google or Deepseek writeups) and benchmark scores

Xiaomi MiMo is led by Luo Fuli, a former Alibaba & DeepSeek employee. Perhaps it is due to Luo just how similar Xiaomi's tech & GTM approach is to DeepSeek's.

- How Luo Fuli Keeps an Earthy Touch as she Soars Through the AI World, https://newsen.pku.edu.cn/news_events/news/people/15385.html (https://archive.vn/I8Pmu).

- Luo Fuli, the 30-year-old ‘AI genius girl’ behind DeepSeek’s success?, https://e.vnexpress.net/news/tech/personalities/who-is-luo-f... (https://archive.vn/sb3B6).

lwansbroughabout 2 hours ago
Anyone else more excited about Chinese models than American models these days? Big thing for me is affordability.
joshheitzman39 minutes ago
Absolutely! DeepSeek-V4-Flash-0731 has become my daily driver. It's pretty amazing what it can do for what it costs at deepinfra.com (I don't use deepseek as a provider since they train on your data [at least their honest about it]). GLM-5.1 was my daily driver before that and Kimi K2.5 before that.
tristanMatthias18 minutes ago
How does it compare to 4.1 flash? Curious why folks don’t use the more “modern” one.
kingforaday28 minutes ago
Are you finding DS better then kimi k3 and glm-5.3? Do you mind sharing your primary use case?
joshheitzman12 minutes ago
My primary use is AI coding agent. Its vastly cheaper than Kimi K3 and I haven't found a scenario where I really need Kimi K3 versus smaller models. GLM-5.3 Flash is good but there is series of bugs in the vllm middleware that prevent GLM models from getting all of their reasoning content returned to them that impairs inference quality. A lot of inference providers use vllm which makes it hard to find a good provider for GLM. I've been using friendli.ai but using GLM-5.3 Flash from them is more expensive then using DS V4 Flash from deepinfra.com simply because deepinfra.com is so cheap. The DS V4 Flash cost at together.ai is similar to the GLM-5.3 Flash from friendli.ai or at least that's what I found in my benchmarks a week ago: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/joshheitzman_i-ran-a-fuller-r...
tacomagickabout 2 hours ago
Absolutely! Chinese models are both cheaper and more capable in many cases, compared to the American models and their makers continuously fumbling or reducing model capability with each update. Deepseek decreased costs when they released Flash 4.1 you would not see any American company do this, in reverse they would try charge you more.
user43928about 2 hours ago
OpenAI decreased prices with the 5.6 model family.

And later they further cut Sol and Terra pricing by 20% (maybe only in the API) and Luna by 80%.

In fact Luna still outperformed DeepSeek Flash 4.1 in cost per task on Artificial Analysis when I last checked.

However, Luna is slightly less intelligent. I have a feeling that it's pretty dumb and prone to hallucination unless running at xhigh or max effort, where it somehow manages to work quite well.

I did not personally test the open weight models beyond the old Qwen 3.6 27B, which produced unusably bad results for me.

The competition is great, and I hope Chinese models will continue to force leading US labs to offer models at a low price point.

That said, I don't think the Chinese labs have anything over OpenAI and Anthropic when it comes to capability or efficiency - I have no reason not to believe the US labs have even lower cost to serve the models.

tacomagickabout 1 hour ago
OpenAI had to cut costs because of Anthropic. I also do not trust the benchmarks when it comes to models anymore. I have tried both Claude and OpenAI models and while it is true that the 5.6 series is smarter than Deepseek (at the time i tested it against 4.0) at that price it is still not worth it and sometimes randomly refuses to do tasks or stops midway etc.

Do also remember China is this far in the AI race despite all chip restrictions from America. If they were in equal standards I truly think Chinese models would have long surpassed American ones. Also would like to remind how Anthropic CEO is being hostile and blaming Chinese models with distilling meanwhile their own models claimed to be Qwen¹ and their stance against open models is negative² and they still keep blaming China for it.

1- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48671252

2-https://www.anthropic.com/news/position-open-weights-models

Implicatedabout 1 hour ago
> I did not personally test the open weight models beyond the old Qwen 3.6 27B, which produced unusably bad results for me.

So you don't have much perspective on things, it seems. Let me introduce you to the GLM 5.2 and then 5.3/5.3 flash series of... "oh, wow, I should have bought some RTX PRO 6000's while they were 'cheap'" stage of progression.

As someone carrying multiple max subscriptions to both claude and codex - primary workhorse is glm 5.3 flash running on rented GPUs for less than a latte/hr.

I also found qwen 3.6 27B nearly useless for my own needs. DS4 flash 0731 and then 4.1 have been nearly as eye opening as glm 5.3 flash, but have their own warts.

goosejuiceabout 1 hour ago
> Deepseek decreased costs when they released Flash 4.1 you would not see any American company do this, in reverse they would try charge you more.

OpenAI reduced prices and Anthropic increased weekly usage limits.

solarkraft10 minutes ago
I couldn’t tell you what western model I was last excited about. Probably Glimmer.
SyneRyderabout 1 hour ago
Yep, I'm trending in that direction, and I'm someone with Claude stickers all over my laptop. My main app dev work is still going to Claude, but everything else is going to China even at API rates now.

One simple task: I needed an LLM to go through and clean up a few thousand page descriptions and titles in my personal search engine index, where the human web page authors had put in no effort sigh. I did a shoot out between Claude, Luna, GLM 5.3 Flash and Deepseek. Despite the high cost, Claude's descriptions were terrible, and even Opus warned me that the descriptions coming back from Haiku were "generalized, not accurate". I expected I would choose Luna because of price, and occasionally it did have wonderful descriptions (one captured emotion in a way no other model did). But in the end, the GLM 5.3 Flash descriptions were the easiest to read, they flow well while also being accurate & including necessary keywords, and being highly affordable. So it won out. It's a task that is nowhere near frontier, but a task where somehow China is better than frontier.

rapindabout 1 hour ago
API rates still aren’t quite competitive with the OpenAI x20 accounts, but they are definitely getting close with deepseek 4.1 flash. I spent a few days with only 4.1 and was very impressed.
bellowsgulch44 minutes ago
Yes, an expensive American LLM has zero capabilities as far as I’m concerned because I’m never going to pay for it.
verdvermabout 2 hours ago
I have a contrarian opinion that China passing America in Ai is the Sputnik moment we need to leave the hubris behind and get our mojo back

debatable if a turn around is possible before '29

swingandamissabout 2 hours ago
No, because I'd rather not support our economic and military rivals.
lwansbroughabout 2 hours ago
I'm Canadian so this sentiment has little value in 2026 unfortunately.
ActionHankabout 2 hours ago
Also, frankly, as a fellow Canadian it's pretty clear that the biggest "rival" the US has right now is itself. Just passed out in the corner puking on itself shouting about all the foreigners who won't talk to it.
tancopabout 1 hour ago
I'm from Europe and I hate America way more than China now. Used to be about equal but then Trump started extorting Ukraine, threatening their own allies and sending billions to Israel to help with a genocide. I think that exposed America for what it really is.
rayinerabout 1 hour ago
Canadians warming up to China makes me think of Germany becoming increasingly reliant on Russia in the 2010s.
zemvpferreiraabout 1 hour ago
As much as the US has been easy to hate lately, I don't hesitate to say Xi Jinping as the most powerful man on Earth would be much, much worse.
joshheitzman36 minutes ago
Does it count as supporting a rival if your an American using an American inference provider self-hosting an open weight model from a Chinese lab?
Freedom2about 2 hours ago
Agreed, and also because I support freedom of speech!
girvoabout 2 hours ago
Neither the US nor the Chinese companies are on your side then. They both censor, just different topics.

But at least I can run Chinese models locally, and strip a lot of that censorship/refusal.

phainopepla2about 2 hours ago
I think we can say pretty confidently they aren't pelican-bench-maxxing
written-beyond39 minutes ago
can you update this website, I just wish the entire layout wouldn't shift when the page gets loaded and the timestamps in the title look very ugly and take up a lot of space.
brcmthrowawayabout 2 hours ago
Just me, or do these look bad?

Qwen3.8-27b pelican was amazing on Mac.

https://www.nudgehost.com/dpjn3uwe

knicholes1 minute ago
Two legs on one side is a little sus.
idiotsecantabout 2 hours ago
Looking terrible isn't nessesarily a bad thing. The pelican is heavily pre trained now. Having a crappy pelican means you didn't try to juke the stats.
broodbucketabout 1 hour ago
Apologies for not taking the time to find it, but there was a post that tried to determine if the pelican was benchmaxxed across a bunch of models by comparing it to other SVGs, and found that it wasn't at all.
handfuloflightabout 2 hours ago
How does this translate to coding performance, which is what most of HN cares about (...I assume)?
simonwabout 1 hour ago
It means they're good at writing SVGs, in particular SVGs of animals riding modes of transport!
lanyard-textileabout 1 hour ago
I only visit HN for the pelicans, personally.
lukewritesabout 1 hour ago
Yeah, I thought the "N" was for Nest
Imanariabout 2 hours ago
ish… at least we can be sure they don’t benchmaxx the pelicans lol
stymaarabout 2 hours ago
Flash[1]: 309B total / 15B activated parameters

Pro [2]:, 1.02T total / 42B activated parameters

[1]: https://huggingface.co/XiaomiMiMo/MiMo-V2.6-Flash-RL

[2]: https://huggingface.co/XiaomiMiMo/MiMo-V2.6-Pro-RL

verdvermabout 2 hours ago
gandreaniabout 2 hours ago
Those this mean they've fine-tuned this Qwen 3.5 9B on output from the V2.6 model?
mydreamofabout 2 hours ago
It is a 9B agentic model developed by Xiaomi MiMo through supervised fine-tuning of Qwen3.5-9B on MiMo-generated data
verdvermabout 2 hours ago
curious why the HF pill (on the right) always has inaccurate values
stymaarabout 2 hours ago
I noticed the same, and I wonder as well.
verdvermabout 2 hours ago
I suspect they are calculating something in the weights or config, I see it pretty consistently with quants
segmondyabout 1 hour ago
more like 500B in FP8
nemothekidabout 2 hours ago
Looking at the frontend design examples; why do these models seem to love the "01 - UPPERCASE TEXT" motif. It's everywhere now (see https://try.cloudflare.com/, which has '01 · QUICK TUNNELS', but no "02" anywhere).
danvaynabout 2 hours ago
My guess is that by function they break down frontend sections or components into pieces and I believe document things for themselves on some level, or purposely are verbose in this way. It is probably also shaped by users and existing web patterns. They probably get reinforced by models the more common they become.
sandblastabout 2 hours ago
Nice catch!
pphyschabout 1 hour ago
The extraneous small-caps labels are one of the main idiosyncrasies of AI generated markup. I wonder how much of this is a "scaffolding" technique to help the model build stable designs. But was it reinforced in RLHF or an emergent behavior of the models?
GodelNumbering24 minutes ago
Mimo has been one of those models that I have been rooting for since the first I used it, the 2.5 pro which I have used quite a bit, was very concise, very aware of how much context needs to be read for which tasks and would always keep the context tight. Also surprisingly good at strategic thinking. I had published a comparison between it and Terra where Terra was found to be using much more avg context for similar tasks https://dirac.run/posts/gpt-5-6-vs-mimo-2-5-pro-context-bloa...

Interesting but not surprising trend across the board seems to be, the flash models seems to have caught up with the pro-sized models of H1'26. No surprise all labs are rushing to bigger models.

EDIT: Wow, took a detailed look at the benchmarks. Mimo 2.6 pro, the 1T model leads Kimi K3, a 2.8T param model in 14 out of 15 benchmarks (and the last one is near tie)!! Good to see they also kept the price the same, and landed in the greenest quardrant of the intelligence vs speed of AA.

user43928about 2 hours ago
I don't trust any of the benchmarks where Opus 5 surpasses Astra or Fable 5.1.

Maybe Terminal Bench 4.0 and ExploitGym are reasonable.

Terminal Bench 4.0

  GPT 6 Astra             59.6
  Claude Fable 5.1        55.1
  Claude Opus 5           49.0
  MiMo-V2.6-Pro           34.9
  MiMo-V2.6-Flash         28.8
  DeepSeek V4.1 Flash     26.8
  MiMo-V2.5-Pro            1.5
ExploitGym

  GPT 6 Astra             42.4
  Claude Fable 5.1        30.4
  Claude Opus 5           22.1
  MiMo-V2.6-Pro           17.8
  MiMo-V2.6-Flash          6.0
  MiMo-V2.5-Pro            0.1
DeepSWE v1.1

  DeepSeek V4.1 Flash     74.2
  Claude Opus 5           74.0
  GPT 6 Astra             74.0
  MiMo-V2.6-Pro           71.9
  Claude Fable 5          70.0
  MiMo-V2.6-Flash         67.9
  MiMo-V2.5-Pro           19.0
dom9633 minutes ago
Why not? In my own benchmark Opus 5 does in fact come out on top[1]

1 - https://bench.killswitch-lang.org/

mokreabout 2 hours ago
Maybe you should not trust any of the benchmarks!
varispeedabout 1 hour ago
They match my experience. Astra and Fable I rate below Sonnet. They are incredibly poor. They were excellent for a couple of days after release and then plummeted.

Maybe I am being routed to more quantised versions or less capable models with system prompt to fake Astra or Fable.

vatsachakabout 2 hours ago
Wow, the chinese labs are getting good at advertising model releases. The moat is thin.

Some features of the release I like:

- Demonstration of diverse tasks, such as using a DAW

- Graphs from various benchmarks and price ranges

- Real world use of the model in scientific environments

toephu236 minutes ago
I said this years ago, LLMs are a commodity (or were becoming one at the time). They are dime a dozen. Even the frontier ones. OpenAI and Anthropic have no moat.

No moat and competition is good for consumers though.

boelboel25 minutes ago
No moat and competition isn't always preferable over a competitive oligopoly (with some differentiation). The former ends up with politicians intervening way more like with solar, steel, agriculture ....
Marciplan29 minutes ago
[flagged]
tomhow9 minutes ago
Please don't post snark on HN. The guidelines make it clear we're trying for something better here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
volf_about 2 hours ago
I've got a working recipe to run this model on Dual DGX Spark: https://github.com/volfco/spark-vllm-docker/blob/main/recipe...

Averages ~25-35tok/s which isn't bad for a first attempt.

thrownawayszabout 2 hours ago
>Night 0.8x Usage, 00:00-08:00 -UTC+8

It's because offpeak electricity is cheaper?

Funnily it's perfect if you are in the Pacific Time Zone because you can use it daytime 9am to 5pm

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pulkitsh123421 minutes ago
Anyone knows what they used to create the videos ? Is the model driving a program like Davinci Resolve / After Effects ? or is the model writing code to then generate these videos via some library.
syntaxingabout 2 hours ago
All these new models are such tease for us folks with 128GB of shared memory. Buying another unit now to expand to 256GB is a mortgage payment but it’s getting tempting…
verdvermabout 2 hours ago
trvzabout 2 hours ago
That’s for toy GPUs, like the 5090.
verdvermabout 1 hour ago
there are many tasks (increasingly more each day) where small models are more than enough
brcmthrowawayabout 2 hours ago
Is there a gamechanger around the corner to reduce DRAM requirements?
zozbot234about 2 hours ago
You could always stream from SSD storage. Especially effective if you get a cheap old-gen HEDT with lots of PCIe slots to add NVMe storage to and reasonable overall PCIe bandwidth.
jkingsmanabout 1 hour ago
That nearly certainly boots you to secs-per-tok land (as opposed to tok/s). Plausible if you are willing to wait hours to days for responses for simple testing, but not (debatably) "usable".
stymaarabout 2 hours ago
n-gram per-layer embeddings[1][2] might be it.

[1] https://sebastianraschka.com/llm-architecture-gallery/per-la...

[2]: See DS 4.1-Flash and Qwen-3.8-Next.

verdvermabout 2 hours ago
this is to offload VRAM to DRAM (for GP comment), and makes no difference for URAM
drob51834 minutes ago
Conspicuous that there’s no reference to GLM 5.3/Flash in the reported benchmarks. Just Deepseek and Kimi.
ddxvabout 2 hours ago
This looks great in terms of cost and capabilities, truly pushing the frontier forward in terms of open weight light weight models.
eriquesitoabout 1 hour ago
Funny that all but one video has audio, the house 3D model one, where you can hear (what I assume are) Xiaomi's engineers talking about who knows what.
MisterMunchkinabout 2 hours ago
I really liked MiMo 2.5, it was really affordable and actually had vision, unlike DeepSeek. (DeepSeek has only recently added it)

Just tried 2.6 flash on a really niche topic I specialise in and it has done a really good job. They’ve definitely polluted their training data with claudeslop, but looking past the slop there is a decent model.

perrygeoabout 1 hour ago
Can we afford to look past it? If/when claudeslop starts infecting every new model to such an extent, that model will produce its own slop, infecting new models... At what point do we lose all reliable methods for establishing "truth"? This is epistemic collapse waiting to happen. I honestly thought it would take longer... holding out for a coherent shared reality in 2030 seems optimistic.
omaniabout 2 hours ago
how do you recognize "claudeslop"?
Bluesteinabout 2 hours ago
It's an honest, load-bearing, simple thing.-
DanMcInerneyabout 2 hours ago
This is a big week. Probably getting next OpenAI and Anthro models, Grok 4.7, Mimo, etc. These open source model releases are why I can't take the "slow down" crowd seriously. I pitted older Mimo, qwen, step, gpt-oss, and other models against each other playing games like Werewolf and Sketch.io-like games where I let them talk shit while they played against each other. Mimo was by far pareto frontier of game-playing for the models that were <$0.15/m input tokens on OpenRouter. Qwen was pareto frontier in the shit talking game though. Qwen's hilarious. https://www.tiktok.com/@clankerfights/video/7642862917582425...
esafak41 minutes ago
It tops the intelligence vs cost Pareto frontier and, uniquely for a Chinese model, does well in response time too.

https://artificialanalysis.ai/models/mimo-v2-6-pro#intellige...

That's pretty fast; I think I'll try it: https://openrouter.ai/xiaomi/mimo-v2.6-flash

algoth1about 2 hours ago
Finally a lab that doesn't cheat on the charts
alfalfasproutabout 2 hours ago
The moat for OAI and anthropic seems to be very quickly shrinking. Chinese labs are now using RSI-like approaches and even without resorting to heavy distillation they're catching up in a couple of months vs. what would have been 6-12 months a year prior.

And as these models get better the pace of training is quickly speeding up too.

This doesn't bode particularly well for anthropic/OAI after they go public.

verdvermabout 1 hour ago
token vendors are headed to the same place mobile data vendors went, this is good for everyone but those who thought they could maintain exorbitant prices
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bertiliabout 2 hours ago
They mixed up DeepSeek 4.1 Flash with something else on this page, possibly DeepSeek 4.1 Flash means Gemini 3.8 Flash.
varispeedabout 2 hours ago
These benchmark are useless as they don't say whether they were done before or after Fable and Astra got nerfed.
gigatexalabout 2 hours ago
Leaning into what it cost to train is hilarious and an obvious shot at US frontier labs spending tens to hundreds of millions or more to train their models.
NooneAtAll3about 2 hours ago
does anyone know what unnamed model is on paretto frontier picture right between MiMo 2.5 and 2.6?

so weird to acknowledge someone being on the front edge, but not name it

AnodicElegyabout 2 hours ago
Pretty sure that's Luna xhigh.
spwa4about 2 hours ago
As for the stats that everyone wants:

MiMo-V2.6-Flash-310B-A15B roughly GPT-5.6 Luna / Claude 4.9 according to benchmarks MiMo-V2.6-Pro-1.02T-A42B roughly GPT-5.6 Sol / Opus 5 according to benchmarks

Perhaps with IQ2 flash will run on 128G M5?

omaniabout 2 hours ago
ah, would you look at that. I was wondering why mimo 2.5 became "dumber" the last weeks. I was speculating they are probably about to release a new version of the model. because the model really acted out a lot. especially the last two weeks. dont know, was just a feeling, highly speculative.

but now I got my "proof".

sandblastabout 2 hours ago
I guess that would only be possible if your provider was Xiaomi itself?
omaniabout 2 hours ago
yes. I use opencode and opencode uses Xiaomi as a provider.
jwpapiabout 2 hours ago
In the chart they use "Pareto Line", which I think is wrong. Pareto is 20% effort leading to 80% results. Which could be interpreted as models costing 20% having 80% of peak intelligence, but that’s not what it looks like to me.

It looks like the "Frontier Line" to me, which is also often misinterpreted. frontier does not mean the best models. It means all models that are not strictly dominated, meaning in most cases: Not same price or cheaper and more intelligent.

I personally would like the word frontier to be used with more criterias: Open Weights, per use-case, etc etc. This would make model selection easier, but I understand it’s not an easy thing to do.

aboundabout 2 hours ago
There are two (or more) concepts named after the same person:

- Pareto efficiency/Pareto curves: Basically the convex hull of points along the edge of a graph, indicating the best tradeoff between the axes. This is what the post is talking about.

- Pareto principle: this is the 80/20 rule you're talking about

nextaccounticabout 2 hours ago
No, Pareto refers to Pareto efficiency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_efficiency

What you call "frontier line" is also called "Pareto frontier" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_front

Your description of it is basically correct though

shmolyneauxabout 2 hours ago
This is the Pareto Front [1], rather than the Pareto principle. It's the idea that anything that's more intelligent is more expensive and anything that's less expensive is less intelligent.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_front

hashmushabout 2 hours ago
"Pareto" is many things, but here it does indeed refer to the frontier: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_front
jwpapiabout 2 hours ago
Thank you guys. I learned something new.