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#nuclear#power#solar#energy#more#gas#wind#need#cost#still

Discussion (127 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

mekdoonggiabout 4 hours ago
Extending the life of existing power infra is low-hanging fruit for more power short term, but the economics of renewables are just unstoppable.

Article states 93% of new generation capacity was renewable which is good, but I can sense that nimbyism is growing towards wind and solar. Not to mention the animus towards China who has wisely cornered manufacturing of these.

The US has shot itself in the foot because of its energy dependence on its own energy source. The resource curse strikes again.

knappeabout 3 hours ago
Some panel manufacturing has been moved to the US and is actually thriving. Qcells keeps growing, year over year and as of 2023 had expanded their US facilities to manufacture more than 5.1 GW[0] of annual production. I'm aware this is a drop in the bucket compared to the estimated 339 GW[1] of annual production in China, but we're also talking about a single manufacturer operating in an actively hostile administration and yet is still managing to grow.

Given this is the top comment on the article at the moment, I thought it was worth at least pushing back on this sentiment at least a little bit.

[0]https://us.qcells.com/blog/qcells-north-america-completes-da...

[1] https://futurism.com/science-energy/solar-energy-china-produ...

Amezarakabout 1 hour ago
The WTO found that China cornered the market with illegal dumping. Of course the investigations and punishments are too little too late.
mekdoonggi32 minutes ago
That may be the case, though from a US perspective, in terms of "unilaterally acting to gain control of other markets" being bad, we aren't a position to criticize.
philipallstarabout 3 hours ago
I still don't understand the economics when it comes to power all the time, not some of the time, and I rarely see that being mentioned in this sort of gung-ho post. I want to feel how you feel - can you help with the specifics there?
AnthonyMouseabout 1 hour ago
> I still don't understand the economics when it comes to power all the time, not some of the time

The way a traditional grid works is that you have baseload plants (nuclear, coal) that generate all the time and peaker plants (hydro, natural gas) that make up the difference between the baseload generation and the current demand by varying the amount they generate to match demand in real time.

The higher demand periods when you're not using electricity to heat buildings are typically daytime and early evening. Solar generates power during daytime. That makes "use solar instead of natural gas during daytime" an easy win. You can also do things like "charge electric vehicles mostly during daytime" and use solar again. Then you're still using natural gas in the early evening but you save a lot of fuel (and CO2) by not having to use them during the day. Meanwhile the gas plants are still there to use in the evening and then you can use them on a day when it's cloudy.

That's still where we are in most places. There isn't enough solar in the grid yet to completely replace natural gas during most of the solar generation window, and we could add even more by electrifying transportation, so we can still add a lot more solar before we have to really deal with intermittency at all.

Optimists would then like to extrapolate the economics of doing that to doing 100% of generation from renewables, which would require actually dealing with it.

mekdoonggiabout 3 hours ago
Easy. US puts panels, turbines and batteries everywhere connected in big grid. Grid is big enough that something is always generating, and batteries smooth out the curve. Power is priced dynamically. Cheap solar at noon? Do big work. High demand in evening? Discharge battery. Power is always available, but cost goes up and down. Daily, god willing.
AnthonyMouseabout 2 hours ago
In theory that works as long as you're willing to let the price reflect actual supply and demand even when the difference is very large, e.g. it has been cloudy and still for a couple weeks so the batteries are low and then you get a hot summer day or cold winter night with a lot of demand. No problem, we'll just set the price to "high enough to get people to stop cooling/heating their buildings" and the market will clear. But people aren't going to like that.
0xWTFabout 3 hours ago
What's even more important is how solar, and to a lesser extent other tech, served as a gateway for China to accumulate electrical engineering, physics, and chemistry talent the US seems committed to offshoring by incentivizing universities to hire the cheapest available grad student talent (inevitably from China). We are training them and not our own.
mekdoonggiabout 3 hours ago
I don't think the engineering talent was the bottleneck. The difference was the long-term planning and industrial policy of China.

I think you're giving the US Universities far too much credence, and the US myopic political situation far too little scrutiny.

asdffabout 3 hours ago
>incentivizing universities to hire the cheapest available grad student talent (inevitably from China)

That isn't how that works. Domestic students are just as cheap.

linkjuice4allabout 2 hours ago
Domestic students sometimes get a local/in-state discount so they actually cost more since they aren't paying as much tuition upfront. GP also alluded to international students coming to the US to learn and then taking their big brains back home instead of starting a company here. This was already an issue before Trump II but has been exacerbated by ICE's gestapo tactics along with all of the other roadblocks that Trump and team are trying to insert via executive order, strategic defunding, and all the other mob/shakedown behavior.
mchusmaabout 5 hours ago
I do think the Iran crisis should continue to push countries towards nuclear + solar. Like Ukraine helped shift some in Europe back to supporting nuclear after foolishly shutting down reactors.
contubernioabout 4 hours ago
The wars in Ukraine and irán have also highlighted what a horrendous insecurity nuclear power plants are. A direct missile attack on one could be catastrophic. The idea that such will never happen is as silly as the idea that there will never be an accident or a tsunami. But passive safety won't stop a missile.
nitwit0051 minute ago
They were designed with that in mind though. They were built to withstand an plane crash or attack.

You may have seen the famous test of ramming a F4 Phantom into a reinforced concrete walls without much effect: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4CX-9lkRMQ

It's certainly possible to blow them up, but they very unlikely to melt down like Chernobyl did anymore due to all the effort put into preventing that. Easier to just launch radioactive materials at your enemy if that's the result you want.

philipallstarabout 2 hours ago
A missile hitting a coal power plant will also be pretty bad, and there's not a giant shield around it.
dctoedtabout 1 hour ago
> A missile hitting a coal power plant will also be pretty bad, and there's not a giant shield around it.

Probably not even the same order of magnitude. A blown-up nuclear reactor would be WAY worse in short- and long-term effects (and cleanup costs) than a blown-up coal power plant producing comparable MW.

(See: Fukushima and Chernobyl.)

senkoabout 4 hours ago
> what a horrendous insecurity nuclear power plants are. A direct missile attack on one could be catastrophic

The same holds for hydro. Even worse, there would be no time for evacuation. Yet nobody is considering banning dams.

Dumblydorrabout 3 hours ago
Not in the same ballpark. Chernobyl nearly poisoned the entire continent’s water supply. Nuclear waste is far far worse than excess water.
foobarianabout 4 hours ago
Dams are just too good a source to ban them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medog_Hydropower_Station 60 GW planned capacity!
leonidasrupabout 1 hour ago
"In August 1975, the Banqiao Dam and 61 others throughout Henan, China, collapsed following the landfall of Typhoon Nina. The dam collapse created the third-deadliest flood in history which affected 12,000 km2 (3 million acres) with a total population of 10.15 million, including around 30 cities and counties, with estimates of the death toll ranging from 26,000 to 240,000."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Banqiao_Dam_failure

"After the disaster, the Chinese Communist Party and the Chinese government remained silent to the public, while no media were allowed to make reports."

"The official documents of this disaster were considered a state secret until 2005 when they were declassified."

UltraSaneabout 4 hours ago
Saying humanity should never use nuclear energy just because someone might shoot a missile at it is incredibly stupid when CO2 emissions are causing climate change.
stop50about 3 hours ago
If climate change prevention is the target, then its also an no for nuclear. Nuclear reactors need tons of cement, the fuel needs an complicated and energy intensive process with a lot of waste.
downrightmikeabout 4 hours ago
That's why we have MADD
tokaiabout 4 hours ago
But still after +4 years of war, with extensive targeting of Ukrainian civilians, the nuclear power plants stand while the plants using gas etc. are bombed daily. They are simply too dangerous of a target. Russia enjoys using Zaporizhzhia power plant for some brinkmanship once in a while, but they are well aware of the risk and everything has turned out fine so far.

If Ukraine didn't have nuclear energy they would be blacked out now.

JohnCClarkeabout 3 hours ago
Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant hasn't been bombed because (1) the Russians control it right now (it's behind their lines) so why would they, and (2) the Ukranians live downwind so why would they?

Russia has bombed the switchyards and trandformers of other NPPs though.

shimmanabout 4 hours ago
This administration has killed dozens of solar + wind projects. Don't get your hopes up, the US is run by people that only want to profit off of natural gas and nothing else matters.
abetuskabout 4 hours ago
The economics of solar will bulldoze past any need for subsidies from the government.
knappeabout 3 hours ago
bluGillabout 5 hours ago
nuclear is not useful today. It is too slow to change output as load changes. We need to focus on storage for all the excess power renewables give at the best case, shifting that to worst case-
nradovabout 5 hours ago
If we want to have an industrial economy with 24×7 heavy manufacturing then we need nuclear power for the base load. There's no need to change output much. The amount of batteries needed to keep a huge factory running is ridiculous.
energy123about 4 hours ago
The world's biggest industrial economy, China, installed about 300x more renewable energy than nuclear last year. New nuclear sucks, and baseload is a false concept that can (and is) being synthetically replicated with over-building + storage + transmission + peaking.
epistasisabout 4 hours ago
The need for nuclear is simply not clear. Storage has advance so quickly, while nuclear tech has remained stagnant or even gotten more expensive.

Eve China, the best nuclear power builders out there, are shifting away from massive nuclear to storage and wind and solar.

Without a major technological innovation in the nuclear power space, I don't see how it can compete, except at the poles and in niches with very poor renewable resources.

pydryabout 4 hours ago
The cost of nuclear power is absurd. It's 5x the cost of solar and wind.

If you use electricity to synthesize gas and then burn that later to generate electricity that is still cheaper than nuclear power.

https://theecologist.org/2016/feb/17/wind-power-windgas-chea...

Nobody builds nuclear power because it's cost effective or green. They either have nukes like China or have purchased an option on nukes (like Iran or Poland).

gpmabout 4 hours ago
That we now have cheap storage makes nuclear more useful, just like with solar/wind we can use storage to make nuclear follow the demand curve, something it was previously incapable of.

The problem with nuclear today is just that it simply hasn't kept pace with the lowering cost of alternatives.

KaiserProabout 4 hours ago
> It is too slow to change output as load changes.

its really not. The new(ie 90s) french reactors are about as fast as Combined cycle gas turbines. Even if its not, it works well enough, spain has shit all battery capacity and manages well enough

but if you have lots of renewables you need batteries ideally, which means the hypothetical argument of "its too slow" goes away because batteries are there to even out the supply.

UltraSaneabout 4 hours ago
Stored electricity is much more expensive than nuclear electricity. To replace 1 GW of nuclear running at 92% CF with solar+storage, you need 3-4 GW of solar nameplate plus enough storage to cover nighttime AND multi-day cloudy periods AND seasonal winter deficit. The seasonal piece is what blows up the cost, you'd need weeks of storage, which at current Li-ion prices is economically absurd ($1000s/MWh delivered).
thomasmgabout 3 hours ago
For the few days without wind, natural gas is cheaper than nuclear. There is also biogas and hydro. Nuclear is not cheap to turn on off. Also, the insurance cost of nuclear power is not accounted for: basically, there is no insurance, and the state (the population) just have to live with the risk.
endymi0nabout 3 hours ago
It's definitely a bit ironic that a war for oil drives the last push for getting rid of it, but I'll take that as well, if logic and sanity didn't help ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
wood_spiritabout 4 hours ago
Most uranium mining is from Russia/CIS and those African counties that have experienced the recent wave of Wagner-assisted coups. The West needs to be energy independent, not just swap who it is dependent upon?
barbazooabout 4 hours ago
https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/nuclear-fuel-c...

It's actually more diverse than I thought.

pydryabout 5 hours ago
Poland was ~80% coal before Ukraine. It wasnt energy independence which got them interested in nuclear power it was the idea that they might one day want a nuclear bomb (in case the current nuclear umbrella goes away).

It's never an economic decision to build nuclear power stations. They're 5x the cost of solar and wind.

nsxwolfabout 5 hours ago
If we actually cared about making nuclear cheap - getting rid of the political barriers to building Gen IV reactors, not throwing away our “waste”, it would beat the pants off solar by operating 24/7 and not using up all our land.
RealityVoidabout 4 hours ago
While I am a big fan of nuclear, I think the issue of land usage for solar is overblown. We use a lot of land for far less useful things. In the end, anything that helps us burn less fossil fuels, I am happy with.
pydryabout 4 hours ago
While we're at it I would actually prefer it if nuclear power paid for its own catastrophe insurance instead of lumping that burden on taxpayers.

Currently their liability is capped at $300 million. Fukushima cleanup cost $800 billion.

End the insurance free ride first and then maybe lets talk about deregulation.

actionfromafarabout 4 hours ago
And also be peaceful and never bomb plants.
lynx97about 4 hours ago
> foolishly shutting down reactors.

Ahem, have I missed something? Do you know more then the rest of us? I mean, has the nuclear waste problem actually been solved?

danarisabout 3 hours ago
No*, but the nuclear waste problem is a problem for 50, 100, 1000 years from now.

Climate change is a problem for 50 years ago. And now. Very, very much now.

Having to, in the worst case, designate some small areas that we choose as uninhabitable "nuclear waste zones" in a few decades is vastly preferable to having to designate entire regions of the world as uninhabitable "too hot to live" zones around the same time. And that's if we don't find some better way to handle the nuclear waste.

* Not in the sense of "a permanent and comprehensive solution". However, the actual spent nuclear fuel can now be reprocessed and reused in newer reactor designs, down to a tiny fraction of what we would have considered "nuclear waste" with the earliest designs in the mid-20th century.

cmrdporcupineabout 4 hours ago
The flush of $$ to North American oil companies will unfortunately lead to a pile of investment in more oil and gas exploration, refining, and transport.

Seeing that already here in Canada. All parties (except one) seem united in their newfound aspiration to just mine and ship more of the stuff.

Talking about transition is politically toxic here right now.

gpmabout 4 hours ago
The shift in Canada predates the oil crisis the US just created... it dates back to at least the election a year ago.

I strongly suspect it was primarily created by the US threatening to annex us via "economic force" and thus creating a need to prioritize our short term economic strength over longer term charity things like climate change.

downrightmikeabout 4 hours ago
Plus if Canada warms up, hey win win
cmrdporcupineabout 4 hours ago
I think we absolutely agree and in fact it goes back much further than that. There's a well funded "opposition" in Alberta that sees any constraints on the energy sector as aggressive "imperialism" from central Canadian "elites", and they've cultivated a grievance politics so deep on this subject that they've convinced people in Alberta of some honestly pretty outlandish things. And yes, a lot of this is directly funded from the US.

I also think that there's a bigger force at work which is that despite actually being only 2nd or 3rd in Canada's GDP by percentage, energy sector is basically the majority of what's on the TSX and a key driver in equity growth in Canada. And so, the old maxim applies in regards to climate change and Canadians generally: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

I'm from Alberta originally and talking to extended family etc about this topic is just painful. Not officially climate change denying, but in practice fully actually

ike2792about 3 hours ago
I don't think this article did the math right. In the linked source from the article (https://ember-energy.org/data/electricity-data-explorer/?ent...), in 03/2026 combined generation from hydro (26 TWh), wind (53), solar (27.7), bioenergy (3.82), and other renewables (1.51) is 112.03 TWh, vs 120 TWh for natural gas. It's still an impressive number but it is still slightly less than natural gas.
ike2792about 1 hour ago
UPDATE: Solar was 37.6, not 27.7. I'm not quite sure where I got the incorrect number from. The corrected total is 121.93, which is indeed greater than the 120 for natural gas. I apologize for the error but I can't edit my original comment anymore so I'll just post the correction here. Thanks to mekdoonggi and 0xdde for correcting my mistake.
mekdoonggiabout 2 hours ago
I am not seeing those numbers in the chart. For March, I see 37.6 solar, 53 wind, 26 hydro, 60.4 nuclear, 5.3 other, together for 182.3 vs 120 for gas.
0xddeabout 2 hours ago
I think you misread the solar number. The link says 37.6TWh solar with the remaining numbers matching what you wrote. That gives a total of 120.42TWh.
ike2792about 1 hour ago
You are right, I read 37 as 27. I will update my parent comment.
itopaloglu83about 5 hours ago
I wonder how good it could be if the governments offered the exact same amount of subsidies to renewable energy they offer to coal and petroleum, including indirect subsidies like distribution infrastructure etc.
epistasisabout 4 hours ago
Right now renewables and storage are cheaper than most new fossil fuel types of generation. The cheapest new fossil fuel generation, gas, is bottlenecked by limited capacity to build new turbines currently.

So if you look at new resources being added to the grid, it's all solar, wind, storage, and a tiny bit of new fossil gas generation.

The biggest impediment to more renewables is no longer cost, it's politics and regulations. We have a president that has torpedoes one of the best new sources of wind, offshore wind, just as it's becoming super economical, and all the rest of the world is going to get the benefit of that cheap energy while the US falls behind. Floating offshore wind in the Pacific, based on the same type of tech as floating oil platforms, could provide a hugely beneficial amount of electricity at night and in winter, to balance out solar with less storage and less overbuilding.

Meanwhile on land, transmission line are a huge bottleneck towards more solar and wind, and the interconnection queue for the grid is backed out to hell in most places.

The technology and economics are there, but the humans and their bureaucracy is not ready to fully jump on board.

KaiserProabout 4 hours ago
> is bottlenecked by limited capacity to build new turbines currently.

its bottlenecked by price. The reason why the UK's electricity is so fucking expensive is because its pegged to international gas prices

epistasisabout 4 hours ago
My comment, like the linked article, was focused entirely on the US's situation, which has abundant fossil gas to the point that many frackers burn it as a waste product.

I'd totally agree for UK and continental Europe. The difference between oil and gas is massive on the distribution angle, oil moves easily as long as there's not a naval blockade, but fossil gas requires super super expensive infrastructure either via pipeline or LNG. And with nearly all fossil fuel companies in the last stages of their life, trying to maximize profits on existing capital, it's hard to get investor support to buy infrastructure that costs multiple billions and has limited lifetime. I don't know the details in Europe, but it seems like this phasing out of infrastructure as the transition happens is a major hassle... I'd love any links on that sort of info about Europe.

dylan604about 4 hours ago
You seem to be focused on generation and delivery costs. Fossil fuels like coal needs to be mined and then shipped to the power plants.
epistasisabout 4 hours ago
I'm including the costs of fossil fuel extraction in the comparison here; in the US fossil gas is super super cheap which makes it more competitive with solar and storage than in most places.
Jblx2about 4 hours ago
Is there a good resource for finding out more about fossil fuel subsidies? There are lots of questionable sources out there, like ones that inform you that oil companies only pay taxes on profits, not on revenue, so they consider that a subsidy. But that is just like every other company.
oklahomasportsabout 4 hours ago
You also then have to include the subsidies renewables have gotten. They of course also use distribution infrastructure
ezstabout 4 hours ago
Or subsidize nuclear because it complements beautifully solar & wind as cheap and clean energy?
colechristensenabout 4 hours ago
Can we stop with this? It's not a helpful line of thinking or a useful argument. This is the batman vs. superman argument of children at a comic convention. Arguing whether federal highway funding factors in to the cost of coal is absurdly useless.

"I wonder how good it could be"

It's already here, solar is already dramatically cheaper and has none of the risk profile a global energy market produces. You install solar and you have that energy for decades.

Solar is here and its cheaper, batteries are good enough for utility scale. Now its simply an adoption curve.

Moralizing or bringing up silly arguments about how cost ought to be accounted should be considered harmful to the progress away from fossil fuels. Unless it's your intent to start pointless arguments.

WastedCucumberabout 4 hours ago
It doesn't seem like a silly argument to me, and certainly not moralizing. Rather "I wonder..." seems to be an indirectly phrased request for information, an open invitation for somebody who has seen the numbers to provide a link.

But I do think I get your point - the subsidies are there so we should compare the costs as they are.

itopaloglu83about 3 hours ago
I also acknowledge that we need energy for pretty much everything, so finding ways to make it cheaper enables a whole range of industrial activity as well.

It’s quite intriguing that we haven’t been able to come up with solid energy policies in the recent decades and it’s all about rent seeking behavior of existing providers that’s holding us back. I don’t understand why we can enable things like Uber/Lyft to disrupt the taxi madalyon system, but become very protective about certain industries, even when it’s in our best interest to explore those areas in detail (regardless of the result).

aidenn0about 2 hours ago
Fusion power has gone from 30 years away to just 8 light-minutes away.
dxxviabout 2 hours ago
But the energy prices (electricity and gas) don't go down :-( Then "renewables generate more power than natural gas" is not very meaningful.
tialaramexabout 2 hours ago
Power companies will charge what they can, and to be fair most of their costs aren't generation, the guy who fixed that HV line a block over when the power went out during a winter storm? He doesn't work for free. And somebody paid for all those huge metal pylons or, if there aren't any where you live, the even more expensive underground cables.

But, the other practical effect is that if you use less fossil fuels you're making the climate worse more slowly. Now, given we'd like it to stop getting worse just making it worse more slowly isn't the whole answer but it does at least help.

Ericson2314about 5 hours ago
Good stuff. But I would blame the Trump admin more then data centers for coal power plants staying on line. Gas would substitute for the coal ata minimum otherwise.

> Nine coal power plants that were set for retirement last year have had their operating lives extended, including five in response to emergency orders from the Department of Energy.

Maybe the other 4 still stay open without the bullshit DoE order keeping the 5 open, but who knows.

wat10000about 5 hours ago
It’s worth noting that at least one of those is being kept open against the operator’s wishes, as it’s no longer profitable to operate. That’s how ridiculous these people are about coal.
cucumber3732842about 5 hours ago
"you're not allowed to shut this down until after congressman so and so wins reelection."
tialaramexabout 3 hours ago
If an incumbent US Senator's electability depends upon a single coal power plant they're already in deep shit.

On the other hand for House reps the elections are every two years like clockwork, "after they win election" is in effect never because they will already be thinking about re-election, so if that's what they're asking for they mean never.

pstuartabout 5 hours ago
A promise of Nuclear SMRs (Small Modular Reactors) is that they could be dropped into existing coal fired power plants and leverage the existing power generation equipment.

Apparently they are failing to attain traction because despite the promise of lower cost reactors due to them no longer being bespoke, their LCOE cannot compete with renewables.

I'd argue that we should subsidize those and help make them happen NOW even if the cost is not as low as it should be, as we need all the energy we can get and we need to get off of fossil fuels NOW to try to mitigate global warming.

nradovabout 5 hours ago
The problem with small nuclear reactors is that costs don't scale down linearly with size or power output. Like you still need about the same number of armed security guards to protect the site.

They might be a good option for remote sites off the grid where physical security isn't a concern.

credit_guyabout 3 hours ago
Some costs scale down more than linearly, some less. For example, because of the square-cube law, you lose more neutrons through the walls of the reactor, so you often times need a higher level of uranium enrichment, and you produce less energy per ton of fuel, all other things being equal. That’s bad news for SMRs. But many reactor components, being significantly smaller, become much cheaper to manufacture, at least that’s the theory. We don’t know yet. But China is planning to start operating its ACP100 SMR in the next few months, and we will probably hear soon how happy they are with it.
lithosabout 4 hours ago
They are scaled for politics.

Tell someone over 60 or 70 that Poland has better modular reactors than us, and they'll suddenly care.

dummydummy1234about 5 hours ago
How much is industrial scale batteries for solar?
lukeschlatherabout 4 hours ago
The LCOE is better than nuclear and nuclear is not getting cheaper while industrial scale batteries continue to get cheaper.
dyauspitrabout 3 hours ago
For everyone confused by all the different ways, these things are measured. Here’s the simplest breakdown.

Total U.S. energy use: about 27.6 million GWh/yr

From renewables: about 2.5 million GWh/yr

Renewables’ share of total energy: about 9%

This includes the total energy usage, including cars and buses and propane for heating homes and like just about everything else. This is the number we need to maximize.