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People who say no probably has a lot of trouble to get fit, get enough sleep -- sometimes NOT because they do not have the resources, but because they are not happy. They hate life, so why makes it better? I have observed this in myself so I wonder whether it is universally true.
I have observed that whenever I have a clear target in my life (e.g. I need to pursue this girl I like, or, I need to figure out Linux 1.0 VFS and I have a clear path before me), I immediately take care to do exercises, eat more healthy food, and try to get good sleep -- but if I cannot find an objective, or I have lost interests and are in the middle of finding a new one, I find myself a lot more obnoxious, and sometimes I "proactively" destroy my health because I don't care about it. Unfortunately I rarely find a clear path before me so the later status is more or less permanent while the former one is rare, maybe once per year -- but when I reach the first status it usually grabbed me for 2-3 months.
Mental stability is probably one of the reasons different people have vastly different productivity or achievements. It is mental stability that brings focus, not the other way around.
Regarding what you said about focus, I think an ADHD diagnosis might help a lot of people here. I suggest asking for a full profile including WAIS testing, which assesses intelligence, because it is the "deficit" between various types of intelligence and attention that matters. Highly intelligent people sometimes are overlooked because their focus, working memory, etc. seem normal or even better than average, but the gap between those and their intellectual capacity creates a lot friction at least for some people.
I recently got diagnosed and am really looking forward to taking a low dose of stimulants in the mornings on work days, I hope it will help me "find a clear path" in my professional life.
My wife was diagnosed within last 2 years and thinks it has changed (and helped) her come to terms with a number of behaviors. And learn how to resolve/improve.
I wonder about me, too. Haven't done it. Is it the case (honest) that may we all have just a little bit anyways?
Hear me out on this, while it often may seem to be the case that it looks like everyone has it, it very well may just be that you unknowingly choose your surrounding in a way that simply everyone around you has it.
Educating yourself on how the brain works, the most important organ, is hugely underrated. Imagine playing a game with only half the screen visible. You wouldn’t see your stats, enemy info, or the map. It would be frustrating to play.
I have strong legs not because that was a goal, but because I fell in love with cycling and never set ANY goals, just enjoyed getting out and riding my serotonin machine.
That might be more sustainable for some people, but if your interests/hobbies are constantly in flux (which mine are as well to an extent), maybe not. I need to find a way to enjoy the process of sleeping more.
The "pinball" concept in "The Soul of a New Machine" rings very true to me -- "The motivational system is akin to the game of pinball, the analogy being that if you win this round, you get to play the game again." -- this is exactly what I feel. But the pinball game is more and more difficult, sometimes too difficult for my fragile mind -- and I still have a day job and a family to take care of.
I like going to gym for past 15 years, it feels great to do some free weights. Not destroy myself, just a good workout. Body adjusting/maintaining not-a-bad-shape is a nice bonus.
I can't control my mood, but when I am positive, I start a new hobby like dancing or playing an instrument, cook healthy, lift, sleep well, study new things, etc. But when I'm depressed, I lose all interest in my life goals, eat junk food, skip exercise, and browse the Internet all night. I can't even enjoy my hobbies anymore.
It's always my mood that comes first, then I can find life goals and naturally do all healthy stuff.
Funnily, when I'm mentally healthy I also visit Hacker News frequently, but when I'm depressed all I do is infinite scrolling Reddit/TikTok.
Actually now that I think about it, "The Soul of the New Machine" / "Showstopper" both describe this kind of mental (although I'm far from a good engineer) when engineers are done with a project, they get frustrated during the waiting period between two projects. This is pretty similar to what I felt -- whenever I finished a project, I tried to find new projects to work on immediately, not want to lose the momentum, but frustration quickly mounts among 1) I was burnt out temporarily but could not take a break, and 2) It's hard to find projects suitable for my level. It usually took a few months for this frustration to pass, which is frustrating by itself.
When people claim the contrary it's feels more of a test to see if you can be perceived as responsible enough for your own actions to be worth helping. An individualistic mindset like that isn't very productive at alleviating depression.
> Mental stability is probably one of the reasons different people have vastly different productivity or achievements. It is mental stability that brings focus, not the other way around.
Agree, at least in concept. I'm aware that some of my perceived or real lack of of progress in some life areas is due to mental instability. Various forms of it, some more active than others or present than others.
A lot of mine focuses on career things. I've got a bank of knowledge and skills that aren't easy to replicate and a career track circled around those things, but lack (I think) the passion for that career track.
But do I like the passion or do I just not have clear goals? What should they be?
In 2022 I was evaluating a senior position at a start-up and a friend asked: "what are your goals, or what are you solving for." My wife asks this question too.
And I tend to stare somewhat blank at the question. As an adult, the goals I'm sure I want have much less to do with career and much more with self. Be happy. Be productive. Be a warm and loving person. Be a responsible, fun, constructive parent.
That doesn't mean that I don't want a career or have aspirations, but there's so much less clarity. And so I've resorted over time to likely unproductive/destructive approaches - more argumentative than necessary, sometimes very responsive, sometimes unresponsive, substances and behavioral things that look like bad habits, addictions, etc.
What do you do to work through these challenges?
I’ve always felt that there was a big difference between doing something and doing something well. My grandfather, who grew up in an immigrant family on a farm during the Great Depression, used to say “do it well or don’t do it at all.” And it showed in his actions. He would spend enormous amounts of time doing things that just did not seem worth it to me at the time; eg, he obsessed about growing flowers when he had all these other skills that could be making him money. When I finally understood what drove him—that nearly any task can feel worthwhile when you move from simply doing it to doing it as best you can-it changed my relationship with work and other tasks in life. Another commenter here suggests that you should “work to live” and not the other way around, but I don’t really see them as separate. If you have the quality relationship with work in mind when you do it, when you connect it to doing things well, it’s hard to avoid feeling like your actions are also a part of living excellently, and for me at least, that fills me with a tremendous feeling of satisfaction.
Drill down a couple of levels on what it means to you to be happy, productive, warm, and loving. What do an ideal day and week look and feel like? What kind of life would you like your kids to have? Not abstractly. What would their ideal school situation be? How far from school? Any special opportunities like certain clubs, interest in playing an instrument, sports teams? Do you just do weekend warrior stuff, or does being a responsible, fun, constructive parent mean you’re picking them up after school regularly to go make memories?
Let’s say it’s something like the last bit for a moment. “Begin with the end in mind” is one of the 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, and in this case, the end is being a fun parent by going for ice cream or to the park or watch a movie or take guitar lessons together a couple of days a week after school. To make that happen, you’ll need to have flexible work hours and maybe a work location near their ideal school. Do the rare and valuable knowledge and skills that you’ve accumulated allow you do that? If so, great! You’re passionate about being a good parent; you don’t need that from your job. Your job is a means to an end. If the current conditions of your job get in the way of your goal of being a responsible, fun, constructive parent, how could you modify job parameters?
There’s no right answer. There’s your answer. What do you want for your kids? What do you want for you and your wife now and after they’ve left the nest? Walk around in a day, a week of that life in your head. There’s your end. Work backward from there.
I think maybe you can move into a managerial position that doesn't need to do much in the trench, or become a trainer in that field.
> That doesn't mean that I don't want a career or have aspirations, but there's so much less clarity.
Yeah. I figured there is a lot of ambiguity in life objectives, and there is no one there to help you. You just have yourself in this game.
> What do you do to work through these challenges?
TBH, I do not know what to do. I have a toolbox for the "down" time, but neither of them really solves it. Sometimes I listen to "Napoleon Hill" episodes to give me some motivation (this one I listened to today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u5jAzHpI3w). Sometimes I talked to myself and tried to sort out something. Sometimes I talked to ChatGPT and asked it to give me a list of something.
I kinda think there is no magic pills for such situations and one just has to grit through.
One thing I know helps. Keep talking to people Keep conversation flowing who buddies, connections, or new acquaintances.
So happy to find ways to connect here too if having a sparring moment during these moments helps!
Yeah we absolutely do. The night-owls and larks are pretty well established at this point.
I'm not sure which half you are talking about, but I'm really bad at giving advice, especially to people in different situations. I do not have the authority or capacity to help others genuinely.
its actually sad that I can do this in some ways financially but internally I am trapped lol
> I have observed this in myself so I wonder whether it is universally true
Growing up is realizing how infinitesimally narrow your particular slice of reality is.
What I mean is, the comment you replied to isolated a specific cause and sparked a discussion; your comment, if taken at face value, is thought-terminating. How can we possibly comprehend all causes of complex phenomena before we are allowed to discuss them?
About the universally true thing, I understood it as whether people that's unhappy with life generally have trouble sleeping, not whether everyone that have trouble sleeping is unhappy with life. Still probably not an universal but is more reasonable sounding
No one is disallowing the parent, you, or anyone else from discussing or thinking about complex phenomena. If someone is not putting in the work to engage with the material, others are free to point it out, and they do so at their leisure.
I hold others to a higher standard when the stakes are higher. Specifically, the post I commented on was (likely unintentionally) not only factually wrong, but stigmatizing people with sleep disturbances. This is why my tone was dismissive and condescending. This was intentional.
I don't care to give examples because they are easy to find if you are asking in good faith. I even posted one in direct reply to TFA.
The deal I have with myself is that it’s okay to tread water for a while - if you’re tired, if you need a break, if you’re not quite sure where to go next - but you can’t wait too long, because the current will move you wherever it wants. To get where you want, you’re always going to have to start swimming again.
I do agree that caffeine, alcohol, nicotine, sleeping pills, and (as much as we can) alarm clocks are all things to stay away from.
This is a bug in the universe! We need to sleep so that the levels of dopamine, and hormones of hunger and not hunger are at good levels, so that we can be healthy and strong, so that the immune system is stable and strong... And we need to get good sleep so that we can protect our children and be sane....
BUT the nature decided that the kids will wake up 3-4 times per night, and you need to wake up and take care of them.
You sleep in best case, on pauses, not more than 4-6 hours, you feel miserable, and at the same time you are THE HAPPIEST PERSON IN THIS WORLD! :)
I don't think this is how humans usually raised kids...
My parents are the village, and the village is the law.
https://youtu.be/skUUVejxDZc?si=unPgT-01QLAQ-lZB
Is it? Couldn't it be a bug in our society/economy instead? What if nature wanted us to take some naps through the day and not just one period of sleep in the night? Waking up multiple times at night wouldn't hurt too much then.
In my case where n=2, naps during the day are/were not all that consistent but at night (unless they are very sick or something) the kids sleep.
Can’t say many other things worked equally well for all three kids, but that did.
Again, n=2 for me personally but as I mentioned in my reply to another comment we also had a friend with a "baby who won't sleep" and when they tried it also worked for them.
I don't make a habit of recommending this to people unless I'm close with them, bc I know that some people may take it personally or believe they are an exception. And I'd bet money that there are plenty of exceptions. But I also think they're exceptions rather than the rule. Whenever I've seen parents who believe that their baby can sleep through the night and work towards that goal, they seem to get there pretty quickly.
Edit to add: To put it in engineering terms, I think part of the problem is that you have to escape a local maximum of baby sleep. You may suffer several nights (possibly a couple weeks) that are worse than what you're used to in order to get to a place that's significantly better than what you're used to. When you're already sleep deprived, that can feel like a big hump to get over.
I'm emphasizing it bc many people are surprised by this, but if you know it's possible, you can start to work towards it. My partner's coworker has a ~1 year old who was still waking up (maybe multiple times?) each night to eat. She introduced them to one of those books (the 12-by-12 one) and they were very grateful.
I imagine the predator situation would have been much worse during the early human evolution years. I don't know if that was a beneficial trait or not in that environment.
As a parent, I just wonder what-if.
So the kids are not sleeping in our beds, where they feel 100% secure, getting to the breast whenever they want (and they quickly will want it at a lesser frequency). The woman will feel this, but hardly has to wake up, me... I slept right through all that. Fwiw, we had a bed for the baby that attached to ours.
In our time everybody advised us: Give the bady a load of milk at 23:00 just before you go to bed! We never did, just stuck to about did 20:00, or just when baby cried, both babies took about 2 months to sleep for about 12 hours straight (although soon after the second one developed reflux which had me watch Rick and Morty in its entirety somewhere between 2 and 4 for some time).
Anyway, not saying everybody is that lucky, just saying sometimes it's good to questions things that are given in one's culture. Worst advice imho is "let the baby cry" which was common on our days. How nice to let a baby cry alone in a room, not understanding anything about what happens...
It turns out that safe sleep rules and the availability of formula exist for a reason. Safe sleep rules exist in the west because pur beds are fundamentally different (and more dangerous) than in places here cosleeping is more common. Tp cosleep you need a certain situation that many people are not prepared to deal with.
There's literally nothing you can do about low supply at all. It's not a matter of trying for me. My body never made more than an ounce even with weeks of attempts. This is even setting aside that some people would like assistance so they can sleep and breastfeeding means dad can't take on night feeds, which is what another friend is experiencing and the child is having a bad time from her severe sleep deprivation.
And even more complications of small child. It's not as simple as "let's go back to the old days". The great days when kids died at much higher rates remember.
And you're right about the rules they exist for a reason, but I think we should as parents take our space to try what works for us and our kids and what feels right.
We're just replaying the life game on easier mode.
Raising kids is the hardest and most fulfilling job.
Where is self sufficiency, team work, communication, taxes, relationships, understanding various addictions, understanding other people, good nutrition, savings and retirement, and of course having and raising kids?
I get they dont want to scare shit out of clueless young, its certainly easier to let them hit walls of life and see who can swim and who goes down. But, as a preparation for life, school is useless and I believe it shouldnt be. I would love to see teachers having doctor's or wall street salaries but be proper experts and psychologists, all of them. Thats the future of given nation.
The most important thing with any health issue is to be aware of your own body.
The classic symptoms were unknown to me until this point when I researched them.
I had previously blamed psych medications for the symptoms, and while they may have exacerbated them, I guess diabetes was the real root cause.
One of the symptoms is frequent urination. And so, every night I wake up every 2 hours or so and crawl into the bathroom. It’s legitimately a huge curse.
I don’t get enough deep R.E.M. and I remain exhausted just from the physical effort of get-up-and-go.
It’s very frustrating and sad to think that even after I’ve got my blood glucose under control, I still have these lingering symptoms that impact my QoL.
Eat right, kids; eat well or be cursed for life!
There are all kinds of solutions that work. High Protein, Mediterranean, Atkins, or even High Carb (the "good" kind). The breakdown usually happens in the "cocktail" of foods. Our bodies are not hybrid engines; we can not switch fuels mid-stream and expect optimal health. You have to pick a poison, let's say, a protein-based diet—and stick to it. Then exercise and intermittent fasting (IF) are force multipliers. I did strict IF for a year, but I have fallen off the wagon lately, only manage 3-4 days of IF a week. The difference in how I feel is stark.
What worked for me was something called "Lalit Kapoor" diet — basically a WFPB/vegan approach with heavy green juicing and fasting. My failure was primarily due to social friction. My family eats very differently. Making a special effort for every single meal eventually made me start taking the easy way. I still follow it but I wish I could be 100% rather than 80% and which is where all diets fail.
Your comment about "not enough REM" sleep shows how little people truly understand about sleep. It's not REM (or even the amount of REM) that is the issue. REM is dreaming sleep and emotional processing. N3 and to a lesser extent N2, often referred to as deep sleep is the stage where the restorative activity and hormonal balance occurs.
Having C-PTSD incipient since my childhood, I've really never, ever known what it's like to have a good night's restful sleep, or a regular schedule of days awake and nights asleep. It's been completely elusive to me. Obviously it is one of the most important things I could do, but how?
If you controlled your liquids at night, couldn't you make it nearly physically impossible to have to urinate frequently? Theoretically, it seems like you could resolve or at least significantly improve it like this.
I've also had a struggle with riding public transit for long, long stretches. Because you often do not have any opportunity to use a restroom on those journeys, sometimes for 2-3 hours. So it's a delicate balance of surviving 120℉ desert weather vs. "gotta go now!!!"
Furthermore, you should be aware that there are three classic symptoms of diabetes: polyphagia, polyuria, and polydipsia. That third one means "excessive thirst"! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diabetes#Signs_and_symptoms
So the diagnosis did explain something I'd struggled with for several years already: my nose, eyes, and throat were often drying out, not from a lack of hydration, but from the climate and simply chronic dryness. And I linked this to the polydipsia phenomenon. And again, I am thankful that I never got hooked on psychoactive drugs, because they all exacerbate these symptoms.
I have begun using Ricola throat balm lozenges to alleviate the dry-mouth symptom, because this often occurs even when I'm well-hydrated, and since I also suffered from hyponatremia, I do not want to guzzle excessive amounts of water!
So yeah, it's a delicate balancing act, whether I'm on a local city bus or trying to sleep in my own bed; how much am I gonna drink and how often am I gonna be interrupted?
I was experiencing similar symptoms in college, and self cured myself through: - diet shift and adjustment, keto and then carnivore specifically - shifting breathing to the nose: the sympathetic nervous system is activated through mouth-breathing, that leads to stress and anxiety all around bogging up everything from the digestive system, lymphatic system and more - happy to share more, my sleep schedule works best by following the sun and guarding myself from artificial lights exposure after
happy to share more as stated.
The most frustrating effect is that even a few drinks in the evening (maybe over 2-3 units). Unsettles my sleep that if I'm in the process of learning something feels like it sets me back several days.
That's not even counting the slowed processing I feel, and lower productivity the next day.
I genuinely have to revisit old information.
A genuine hangover from a heavy night can put me out of action for half a week!
When I was younger I'm not sure I had many good nights sleep let alone noticed a bad one!
I've heard that small amounts of alcohol can actually improve learning interestingly by preventing interference from events later in the day.
Back when I was 20 I had a drinking problem. One time I drank so much that I passed out sitting at a table. Woke up with friends having stripped my clothes and washed them. I woke up at 9AM, feeling 100% sober, just anxious about my 20 missed calls from my mom. I got a bit drunk at about 33 and next day I thought I was dying.
That's how I learnt what hangovers were.
Again, at around 25, I helped my brother in-law move bee hives all night, including some 8 hours of driving.
Went straight to work and in the evening I had dinner with my wife at a restaurant.
Now I crash in bed at 9PM and if I'm lucky, I also sleep (but quite often I wake up at 2AM).
Getting old(er) sucks, and I'm only 42 and I miss so much how nice being in my 20 something body felt all the time.
Like you, I have much less youthful buffer that shrugs off poor sleep or overindulgence, but I have much more knowledge and much better habits.
Daily habits: better nutrition (based on Bryan Johnson’s super veggie and nutty pudding), stretching, weak points warmup, proper oral hygiene, regular bedtime
Weekly habits: 4x gym, 3x run, 2x weighted walk
I have used ChatGPT to work out a program that is helping me to overcome injuries and niggles while building strength and cardio. I’m 3 months into my latest training schedule, and it’s unreasonably effective.
You don't need to be a health champion to have good sleep.
The next thing I have to back off on is sugar. It doesn't seem to mess up my sleep like booze, but I definitely notice it the day after I have that big bowl of ice cream or giant slice of cake. A big enough sugar binge feels pretty close to a hangover for me now.
Can relate.
> The most frustrating effect is that even a few drinks in the evening (maybe over 2-3 units). Unsettles my sleep that if I'm in the process of learning something feels like it sets me back several days.
I'm not noticing it unsettles my learning but can relate to a few drinks already upsetting my sleep. I wouldn't be surprised if my learning would be impaired by at least a bit.
> When I was younger I'm not sure I had many good nights sleep let alone noticed a bad one!
Being young is a blessing that way.
I'm +35 years old by the way.
> I've heard that small amounts of alcohol can actually improve learning interestingly by preventing interference from events later in the day.
Do you have a source? Would be curious to look some of it up.
Here is some research around the alcohol effect. What I found most surprising is the mean consumption was over 80g, since 8g of ethanol is a unit that's an astonishing mean of 10units.
I was of the impression that the effect was around 1 unit.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5524957/
I actually hadn't realized until I went looking that the "standard drink" isn't much of an international standard unit at all. Will have to keep that in mind when reading papers/recommendations from different health authorities in the future.
-----
Anyway, it's pretty interesting. I'm not sure I'm going to believe the effect just on one noisy study, but even if the reality is something lesser - like it just not harming memory formation of things you'd learned earlier in the day, the implications are still a bit interesting.
It certainly adds a bit to some of the historical social biases against "day drinking", and also does a bit to explain how plenty of high-performing young people seem to use alcohol pretty heavily after they're done learning (college students partying, etc) with limited direct impacts on their educational performance.
Even better, the topic is visited on part 6.2[1] of the article you're replying to.
1 https://super-memory.com/articles/sleep.htm#Alcohol
This type of response on the other hand, is not helpful at all and for a 14 day old account with this only post...Some might say you are the one worth ignoring.
This is very easy to say when you're not suffering from insomnia and other sleep disorders.
"Go to sleep only when you are very tired" is a child's approach to sleep, it's what we all want to do, and by adulthood we learn that it's counterproductive. But we still want it so much that we regularly test it and are reminded why we don't operate that way.
It reminds me of the intuitive eating folks who say, "Ignore standard diet advice, just listen to your body and feed it what it knows you need," but then when you overeat, they say, "You aren't listening properly, you aren't in tune with your body." Then if you ask, "How will I know when I'm in tune with my body and listening to it properly?" they say, "When what it asks for matches standard diet advice."
This flies in the face of all sleep research done at the Stanford Health Care’s Sleep Medicine Center.
You're confusing treatment for insomnia with recommendations for general sleep hygiene.
I always thought that due to being female and a healthy weight, it wasn't something I needed to think about. I also didn't think I snored more than anyone else, so it took me years of poor sleep before a Doctor finally recommended I get tested.
Turns out OSA also can be caused or aggravated by: the size and shape of your mouth, the position you sleep in (I have twice as many events on my back vs side), and whether you tuck your chin in near your test (soft cervical collar helped for that). There are devices that alter how your mouth rests when sleeping (easier to breathe if your front teeth are forward) but they're possibly not good for your bite. CPAP/APAP is still the gold standard for a reason.
The coolest thing about CPAP though, is a lot of them have amazing metrics recorded if you pop in an SD card. And there's a big community built around open source software to analyze those metrics and tune the settings to minimize apnea events overnight.
Also, a cpap with a humidifier is amazing if you're prone to nose pain / nose bleeds due to dry air.
What is name of the product?
I got checked out initially because I mentioned to my sister that I didn’t recall the last time I’d woken up and felt refreshed all day, even with 8+ hours, and she said “…that’s not good, get that checked out.”
Back to the drawing board :(
Do a full polysomnogram with MSLT: this will check for sleep apnea, restless leg syndrome, narcolepsy, and idiopathic hypersomnia
Look into ME/CFS if you have post exertional malaise (pretty much you cross some invisible line in exertion followed by a delayed crash).
Look into MCAS if you also have strange allergy symptoms. I have MCAS, though tbh I didn't really have that many symptoms until I looked at Dr. Afrin's free chapter on MCAS.
Maybe fibromyalgia, but you didn't mention muscle pain, so it probably doesn't apply.
Obviously depression can cause somatic symptoms, so that's worth checking, but I think people jump to that conclusion too soon.
Note that a lot of these conditions don't really have tests, so it's really tricky to get a diagnosis. It takes finding a doctor who's willing to recognize them and give a diagnosis.
Tried all kinds of sleep medication, but by now I've forgotten what it's like to not be half-asleep and unable to concentrate throughout the day (with loud tinnitus and a soupy feel in the brain to boot). Really sucks out any and all enjoyment from life, I can't even find the energy to watch TV shows anymore, let alone read books. I haven't learned anything fundamentally new at work for years too (inertia helps with daily routine).
In any event, I agree with something implicit in the article, namely that most people have a degree of this, but the severity is variable. Mine has been fairly extreme, and while diagnosis enables disability accommodations, it is very fraught navigating most workplaces with this particular disability and you are essentially forced to choose between having any kind of upward mobility and getting enough sleep at night.
Thankfully the past two years or so I've been getting much more sleep since optimizing more for that. But anyway, if you are navigating sleep challenges you should get a sleep study, sure, but also be aware that your local sleep clinic is in all likelihood only nominally a sleep clinic. That is, it does not know how to diagnose and treat more complex sleep issues and probably doesn't want to.
That being said, I do think a lot of what the author is saying flies right in the face of traditional advice, esp. the suggestion that we should all just free-sleep and rotate around the clock. I personally find myself happiest when I'm entrained to the 24-hour cycle, but at my own natural offset. Whenever I've been cycling the day it's felt miserable, uncontrollable and exhausting.
To be fair, the author did claim that you can fully solve this by completely cutting out after-dark electronics, but I've tried pretty intensely to do exactly that for extended periods in the past, and didn't see any progress. I do sleep amazingly when camping, though, and the delay is lesser than normal (still definitely there).
I have it. What I've learned from my doc (a researcher in the field):
It's primarily a specific genetic mutation that affects many of they body's cyclic timers, but relevant here is that the circadian feedback loop is no longer able to lock to a 24 hour day/night cycle at all. The timer technically works. You're perfectly sensitive to light/dark, but you're hitting a PLL with inputs faster than its ability to make meaningful adjustments. That's not the case with DSPS.
Sleep apnea diagnosis is relevant here, it also breaks the breathing reflex timer. Imagine finding out at age 40 that you've not, in fact, slept more than a few minutes at a time your entire life, because you wake up just enough to take a breath every 3 minutes or so when a secondary suffocation reflex goes off.
It seems like we're all just looking at the title and talking about our sleep habits.
Also, I'm really curious to know if some of it is no longer valid. 14 years is a long time in science
I don’t always nap, but I make sure to do so if I haven’t had enough sleep or when I’m stressed or overworked. The more work I have, the more naps I take. Three back to back meetings? 15 minutes nap for your brain to organize and process the information dump. You get the gist. Doesn’t have to be after lunch, just a few minutes when you need/have them.
I used to do the Dali nap: find a comfortable spot, hold a spoon in your hand, and close your eyes. Once you fall asleep the spoon will fall from your hand and wake you up. That makes sure you go into hypnagogic state, great for problem solving as the brain is in a creativity sweet spot.
The technique I use now is not strictly a nap but a relaxation technique called NSDR: Non-Sleep Deep Rest. It’s kind of a guided meditation that deeply relaxes your body and nervous system. Just 10 minutes can feel as restorative as hours of sleep. You can check Andrew Huberman's scripts or Youtube videos for a more body-hacking, science-backed vive, or channels like are Ally Boothroyd's [0] for a more spiritual take on the concept, also known as Yoga Nidra.
I hope that helps. And best of luck with your napping, honor the ancestors!
[0] https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL19-3B-OVYoc1sdjBBKLB...
I've also read about NSDR and wanted to try it, so having some sources is really helpful. Do you always practice it with some guided meditation or can you do it on your own? I kind of not like guided meditation. (No reason, it's just that kind of feel wrong. Probably I should just open my mind and try it more.) Thank you so much!
I currently do not do guided NSDR that much, but it helped a lot at the time learning how to calm my thoughts and become deeply relaxed, especially the Ally guided sessions (as everything else, takes practice) so I would recommend to try the guided ones even if it feels awkward, until you learn how to stop your mind from wandering. I find it helps both with quick reset/recharge naps and falling back asleep if I wake up in the middle of the night (happens often for me).
If I did that I would go to bed a 5 in the morning and wake up at 2pm, sir.
I will say there are varying degrees of stimulation. Computer use > TV > Book reading > Music > silence and boredom. At least that is the order in which I shutdown on the nights I have the motivation to do so.
It's very easy to fall asleep right after work and some days I go to sleep for a few hours but then I wake up super late for dinner around 10/11pm and completely screw my schedule, last night I couldn't sleep until 4am or so.
Most days I don't sleep and power through since I need to buy groceries, cook, do other stuff around the house etc. but even so after dinner around 9/10pm or so I become very active, I don't get sleepy and I can't easily sleep until 2/3am. I've tried with a bit of melatonin, magnesium, etc.
Moreover I've bought an apple watch and discovered I have quite some interruptions during the night, so I'm sleeping around 5-6 hours if I don't sleep at a crazy time, a bit less than what I expected.
Any suggestions? I don't know if taking that nap when I come back from work is helpful or not, usually I don't but I do feel quite tired during that time so I wonder if it's the natural stuff to do to try and go to sleep.
Good sleep, good learning, good life - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24737026 - Oct 2020 (121 comments)
Good sleep, good learning, good life - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20650647 - Aug 2019 (4 comments)
Good sleep, good learning, good life (2012) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18241135 - Oct 2018 (254 comments)
Good Sleep, Good Learning (2012) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10782443 - Dec 2015 (27 comments)
Good Sleep, Good Learning, Good Life - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10446903 - Oct 2015 (1 comment)
Good sleep, good learning, good life - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5244619 - Feb 2013 (121 comments)
Good sleep, good learning, good life - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1207945 - March 2010 (61 comments)
Good Sleep, Good Learning, Good Life - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=126982 - March 2008 (1 comment)
To pre-empt a few objections: I did not need an alarm clock to wake up. I am not taking heavy stimulants other than caffeine at this time. I am not stressed. I am not unhappy. I don't have memory issues (in fact, I am cursed with a very good memory and it is usually harder for me to forget than to remember). I can score above the Mensa bar on an IQ test. I can take an interview. I can give a demo. I can run 10km. I do not have "bipolar disorder" or any such nonsense. I don't need medication. I don't need therapy. I don't need a better mattress. I'm not already in a mental asylum. I'm married with kids, I work a high-paying job, I give to charity and I pay my taxes. In fact, today is tax day, I should probably take care of that instead of getting upset at hacker news comments.
Over time, it supposedly significantly increases the likelihood of certain diseases/conditions.
Peter Attia was one of those people who got by with little sleep, and for years, well into his medical career, was dismissive of those who preached the importance of 8 hours of sleep a day. He then looked into the research, and completely changed his mind:
https://peterattiamd.com/category/sleep/
Here's the thing: say what I have is a "disease" and currently, the best cure for this disease is a pill that would slow down my thoughts and make me into a bland emotionless vegetable during my waking hours in addition to reducing the amount of waking hours that I get to enjoy. Even if that magic pill buys me 20 extra years of old age at the tail end of my life, is it rational for me to take it in my early 30s?
In other words it's possible to "feel fine" on little sleep and yet be significantly cognitively impaired. Worth measuring that, if possible.
(It might have been Gwern, he's got a big page on the subject.)
My philosophy is: either I'll live to benefit from technology that can repair the damage caused by aging, in which case health micro-optimizations early in life are not that important, OR this won't be achieved within my lifetime, in which case I prefer a short life with concentrated happiness, vitality and intensity in my youth.
You should at least monitor your deep sleep using a smartwatch. Less than 1.5 hours and I would be worried.
For example, I can't fly, but I can (apparently) move the whole universe by a specific offset. I can also change the specific offset at a specific motion. So basically, I don't have flying powers, but I do have the powers of treating my dream like a Unity3D scene. And in that way, I can mimic flight.
I can also turn into a monster myself, usually into a worse monster than whatever I'm facing. I have become my nightmare's nightmare at certain points.
Nowadays though, whenever a nightmare hit I'm just unfazed. What also helps is that I let my nightmare and the creatures within it know that I am immortal. No matter what they do to me. In my dreams I am The Beginning and The End. I am all that will be there. They are there because of me. I'm essentially the only god that there is (I'm not religious but as far as my dreams are concerned, I am a god).
That throws off quite a lot of nightmares. The ones that persist, it's fine. They can test my immortality.
I got interested in lucid dreaming for its own sake, and trained myself for it. I did all the common stuff in the guides, and eventually I had a habit of many times a day rubbing the back of my hand or something else tactile and asking myself if I was dreaming. After quite some time it did start to actually work in my dreams. I would frequently become "aware" in my dream and realise I was dreaming, and in my dream I would dream I would have control, but once I woke up it didn't even really feel like I had full control. It was not the experience I had been expecting, where everything becomes clearer, you can literally consciously control the dream. It was more like dreaming that I knew I was dreaming, and then controlling the dream, but I could never quite control it to the full extent I wanted to. No matter how much I practiced, this is all I achieved.
However, it wasn't nothing. It did let me start to realise I was dreaming in nightmares, and immediately just change them and become "in control" to the point where I could push back on whatever the nightmare was about, dictate on my terms. It still wasn't full lucid/awake control, but it was enough that I become the power in the dream, not the subject of the nightmare.
I really encourage you to keep trying. It took a lot of repetition during the day for the habit to finally enter my dreams. A lot more than I expected. But it did eventually work, to the extent I mentioned.
Also, these days it's nearly impossible to stay awake watching a show for more than 10-15 minutes while lying down in bed before a powerful wave of sleep knocks me out, which can be annoying when I want to watch a show.
That's just incompatible with modern life right?
So I tried sleeping when I was really tired, waking up without an alarm, eating when I was hungry, etc. I ignored watches, daylight and society. For context, my internal days have always been much longer than 24 hours, often finding myself going to sleep at sunrise; so I thought this was gonna be great, not having to spend an hour awake in bed.
It was horrible. And I mean HORRIBLE. I became a zombie, even though I was sleeping more than ever. I felt deeply depressed within two days. I lost all concept of the passage of time, and could never tell how long ago something had happened. I couldn't think properly or comunicate with other people. It affected me physically too, my weight, my stomach.
The experiment didn't last long. But I couldn't tell you how long.
But what I've found is that forcing a run when hung over does help me move past it. Maybe it helps expel the metabolites from my body.
Disclosure: I am the co-founder & CEO of neurotech/sleeptech company https://affectablesleep.com
The post talks about "sleep deprivation" which most people, and most studies, view as reduced sleep time.
The latest research shows that sleep regularity is a better predictor of health (via morbidity) than sleep duration, even when sleep duration is taken into account. This is on our blog with links to research [1]
I have a few issues with the "sleep more" concept, and I often say that you wouldn't measure your diet based on how much time you spend chewing, so why do we think this is a good measure for sleep. The methodology for measuring sleep, particularly deep sleep, was defined in 1968 by the sleeping pattern 28 college aged men and 5 college aged women [2].
We are able to show that decreasing the Neural Function of Sleep, the vital processes of the brain that make sleep restorative, and specifically slow-wave activity, reduces the effectiveness of sleep without altering sleep time. We can also enhance the Neural Function of Sleep to improve health outcomes measured by memory, HRV, cortisol, immune function, and more [3] links to research.
This isn't just limited to a bunch of lab studies. As we age, the Neural Function of Sleep naturally declines, and this decline is linked to age related metabolic health, cardiac health, and of course neurological diseases and particularly dementia and Alzhiemer's. Overly focusing on "just get more sleep time" doesn't solve the problem.
To further the problem, people often blame sleep for their tiredness, when they have poor diet, don't exercise, and/or poor mental health (stress, burnout, depression, etc). You can complain all you want about the gas mileage on your car and try tuning your engine, etc, but if you've got flat tires, you're not going anywhere.
Our work in neurotech and specifically sleep is focused on some of these issues, though I think the more important thing is for people to
1) Understand what sleep schedule works for YOU and focus on consistency and regularity. 2) If you're "tired" ask yourself if you are "tired" or "lethargic" is sleep really to blame? Or could there be other things that are impacting how you feel, or impacting how well you are sleeping.
I equate what we know about sleep and the brain today as similar to what we knew about diet and exercise in the 70s. We knew it was important but we really didn't understand how it worked. What we will learn in the next decade will upend our current understanding and have a significant impact on health and longevity.
[1] https://blog.affectablesleep.com/p/the-hidden-work-of-sleep-...
[2] https://blog.affectablesleep.com/p/sleep-sciences-blind-spot...
[3] https://affectablesleep.com/how-it-works#research
Helped me start going to bed at 10pm
edit: hours and minutes cannot replace our natural light-based circadian rhythm that evolved for millions of years entraining our hormones and energy cycles around the sun's light.
It's an impressive achievement, really. Here's a shorter page of his I've found more digestible:
https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Curing_DSPS_and_insomnia