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#quantum#rsa#shor#however#used#problem#algorithm#circuit#proof#still

Discussion (41 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

quuxplusone1 day ago
Top comment on LWN is a very interesting read (although neither the commenter nor myself claim any such trickery was involved in this case).

> Trail of Bits were able to craft an input that beats Google's circuit and prove it... by virtue of a bug in the verifier: https://blog.trailofbits.com/2026/04/17/we-beat-googles-zero... Google patched the vuln and the original proof still stands, but this is a pretty strange path we seem to be walking down [...]

Genbox4 days ago
Publishing a zero knowledge proof rather than the solution is pretty clever.
adrian_b2 days ago
This has been used for centuries. It is not a new invention.

Hundreds of years ago, it was not unusual to publish an encrypted solution of some mathematical problem, in order to establish priority without disclosing the algorithm that was used.

Of course, at that time very simple encryption methods were used, for instance an anagram of the solution was published (i.e. encryption by letter transposition).

blamestross1 day ago
Seems like a wonderful use case for a one time pad! Every time you offer up the encryption key, it shows you were right!
aleph_minus_one1 day ago
> Every time you offer up the encryption key, it shows you were right!

Only if you have a pre-commitment.

coherentpony2 days ago
Is it? Nobody else can really build on their work.
riffraff2 days ago
AIU the intent of this publication is not to further research but to make it clear to anyone that we need to move to post quantum cryptography ASAP.
QuaternionsBhop2 days ago
If only AI safety research had a mechanism this clear. "We have proof that building the machine will kill everybody, so get to work making a provably safe version."
rwmj2 days ago
But the algorithm still isn't practical on existing quantum computers, or ones that are going to be around any time soon, so there's no reason not to publish in full.
mikelitoris2 days ago
Could be one of the intents, but the main intent is reputation building.
adastra222 days ago
That may be the intent, but it is very anti-science.
LtWorf1 day ago
Wake me up when there's an actual working machine.
pseudohadamardabout 24 hours ago
That's the whole point. And it's not "build on their work", it's "question their work", because so far every time someone's announced some magic quantum thing it's been followed up shortly afterwards by people poking holes on it, a famous recent example being the "quantum computer" that was replaced by /dev/random and it produced the same results. So the magic here isn't the quantum, it's coming up with a way to publish a claim in a way that it can't be refuted.
sigmar1 day ago
>We contend that the amount of time remaining before the arrival of CRQCs still exceeds the amount of time needed to migrate public blockchains to PQC, though the margin for error is increasingly narrow. Therefore, we have offered updated resource estimates for quantum attacks on blockchain cryptography together with an analysis of vulnerabilities and mitigations in order to urge all vulnerable cryptocurrency communities to begin PQC transition immediately while its timely completion is still the likely prospect.

they really couldn't be shouting "mitigate now or never" any louder. I'm curious how they arrived at the efficiency improvements, but perhaps any mention of that would be similar to releasing the circuit.

smj-edison2 days ago
Wait, the article mentions that Shor's algorithm is factoring (which is what I understood), but then it's talking about elliptic curve cryptography? I thought ECC didn't use the same mathematical foundations of RSA, and RSA has been slowly phased out anyways...
lima2 days ago
Shor published multiple quantum algorithms, including one for discrete logarithms. The term is sometimes used interchangeably.

They're closely related, ECC and RSA are both instances of the hidden subgroup problem.

bjoli2 days ago
Quite the contrary. Shor's algorithm actually works better for the shorter keys of ECC. The rule of thumb is 2n qbits for RSA keys and 6n qbits for ecc. I believe it has something to do with hownit applies to the hidden subgroup problem of finite abelian groups rather than factorisation, but I am really not a cryptographer not especially mathsy. I just asked the same question you did, and someone in the know pointed me to that.
pseudohadamardabout 24 hours ago
It doesn't, but it's much harder to cheat with the DLP than it is with the IFP, which is what RSA is, which is why everyone announces records for RSA and ignores the fact that the actual problem to solve is the DLP. An example of how to cheat with the IFP is the "compiled Shor's algorithm" which produces the answer by non-quantum means and then throws in a quantum of quantum to make it look like magic happened.
raverbashing2 days ago
> I thought ECC didn't use the same mathematical foundations of RSA

It kinda does, it just uses them differently

The basis here is the discrete inverse logarithm in a specific group (elliptic curves over rationals or multiplicative group module n)

loglog1 day ago
How is it possible to provide a zero knowledge proof that their circuit works for large problem instances if there is no efficient way to run or simulate the circuit with the required instance size?
Strilanc1 day ago
The dominant cost in Shor's algorithm is the elliptic curve point addition subroutine. That subroutine can be implemented using reversible classical gates. For that kind of implementation, approximate correctness can be verified by fuzz testing classical trajectories through the subroutine.

Note you could ask the same question about Shor's original paper: how did he show the algorithm works without running it? Running X just isn't the only way to analyze X.

upofadown1 day ago
Checking the required hardware noise performance:

>On superconducting architectures with 10−3 physical error rates...

So still 1-2 orders of magnitude better than what we can achieve.

This is against a 256 bit elliptic curve. For some reason most people are stating the difficulty of using Shor's against 2048 bit RSA. Elliptic curves are easier to break with Shor's. I wonder how much of the optimization came from that fact alone...

pseudohadamardabout 24 hours ago
That's because it's easier to cheat with the IFP (the underlying problem that RSA is built on) than the DLP, so everyone generates RSA "records" and ignores the actual problem that needs to be solved.
cubefox2 days ago
> If the paper's authors had chosen to release their circuit, they would certainly have been recognized for the important progress they made in the science of quantum computing. Other researchers would have gone on to build on their work, and the entire scientific community would be richer for it.

... and the world could well have been unsafer. There is pretty strong reason not to release insights which could be used as an attack on public key cryptography. We already know the fix anyway, post quantum cryptography algorithms.

Sometimes scientific curiosity has to step back when it comes to potentially dangerous research. Scott Aaronson recently [1] compared this case to when scientists stopped publishing on nuclear fission research because the possibility of developing an atomic bomb became concrete:

> When I got an early heads-up about these results—especially the Google team’s choice to “publish” via a zero-knowledge proof—I thought of Frisch and Peierls, calculating how much U-235 was needed for a chain reaction in 1940, but not publishing it, even though the latest results on nuclear fission had been openly published just the year prior.

1: https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=9665

xtracto1 day ago
They are not doing Science, they are just bragging.
free_bip2 days ago
Oh please, the government could easily force them to hand over their research. This is not a serious argument.
ziofill2 days ago
Would it be really so straightforward for the government to do that?
throawayonthe2 days ago
i doubt they don't have access already
fguerraz2 days ago
However, the author managed to squeeze the word "however" eleven times in this article, however.
dahart1 day ago
Never twice in one sentence like you did, and there are 13 “but”s. Is something wrong with using ‘however’? If so, what exactly?
flimflamm2 days ago
However, there was only 57 however's in the paper it self.
paulnpace1 day ago
> A new paper provides a major step in that direction, however.

It may have gone unnoticed if used only used once in the article, however.