HI version is available. Content is displayed in original English for accuracy.
Advertisement
Advertisement
⚡ Community Insights
Discussion Sentiment
59% Positive
Analyzed from 1557 words in the discussion.
Trending Topics
#power#voltage#probe#differential#psu#more#battery#don#scope#buy
Discussion (28 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews
So, I replaced all my UPSes with LiFePO4 batteries supplied by Victron AC->12V chargers. Routed the battery contacts directly to all devices that consume 12V (WiFi AP, network hubs, SLA 3d printers). Used 12V -> 5V adapters to supply 5V / USB2 devices (R-Pi servers). For 19V, Drok DC-DC boost converters work great.
Result: threw away 3 UPSes (different APC models). Overall power consumption with AC present dropped by about 40%. Time on batteries (same Wh battery capacity) increased by a factor of about 20 (yes, 20 times: that's not a typo). Evidently, AC waveform generation is extremely power-hungry
I've tested a dozen models from APC. The inverter used in those devices uses roughly 15-20W with no load. Then for any load they have about 85% efficiency. Then you have further losses into any PSU connected there because they tolerate square waves but aren't optimized for it. So yes, in the end, less than 40% of the battery capacity in cheaper UPSes is actually usable.
The reason you're seeing 20x is because obviously you've also greatly increased your battery capacity (typical under-the-desk APC units have 70-150Wh capacity, less than half of which is usable as explained above).
> Overall power consumption with AC present dropped by about 40%.
I'm finding that part harder to understand. The UPS consumes almost nothing when AC is on, so that can't be that. You've replaced multiple PSUs by more efficient, bigger ones, sure that can explain part of your improvement. But 40% drop is wild!
Evidence is the heat from that conversion
Entry level differential probes are $300. Less if you shop around or buy used. Micsig makes a good starter probe that would be more than enough for 60Hz AC mains testing and it comes in a generic form that would have worked with this scope.
A lot of things can go wrong, some dangerously so, if you incorrectly probe high voltage lines.
I don't know why they got such an expensive oscilloscope and then proceed to cheap out on the most basic tools needed to use it properly.
For about $300 you can buy a Tiepie differential usb scope: https://www.tiepie.com/en/usb-oscilloscope/handyprobe-hp3
The ground lead on your probes is connected straight to the ground on the power cable. This gets new users in trouble when they're probing power circuits and they don't realize that connecting the ground part of the probe to something will cause a short to ground. If that ground clip pops off and brushes against the high voltage you're trying to probe, you get sparks and maybe a destroyed scope.
The differential probe provides isolation and rejects the common-mode (shared) voltage between the two probe points before it gets to the oscilloscope.
I don't know about that USB probe, but I prefer not to have single-purpose instruments that require their own desktop software to use.
* These power stations are better than conventional (lead-acid battery) UPSs in the sense that they're cheaper, more flexible, have dramatically longer battery life, and require battery replacement less often.
* ...but I haven't seen any that claim to be "line-interactive" or even say specifically when they fail over (other than a total power cut). They do talk about how long it takes to fail over: older models are >20ms (long enough that your machine will probably reboot); many newer ones are <10ms. I'm not sure how high-quality their sine wave is when on battery.
20 milliseconds is barely distinguishable from a single 60 Hz sine wave period. 10 milliseconds just over half a cycle.
They do not. You must be thinking of very old power supply technology with a simple bridge rectifier in front of some capacitors.
Switch mode power supplies with power factor correction spread the current draw across the cycle to keep the power factor high. They are drawing power from the line for most of the cycle. There is not a 8.3ms interruption.
> 20 milliseconds is barely distinguishable from a single 60 Hz sine wave period. 10 milliseconds just over half a cycle
The ATX 3.1 power supply standard only requires 12ms of hold up time.
I've read that the newest PSUs are only guaranteed to last 12ms. Of course they may last much longer, especially if running near idle, but I'd prefer something that works well with any compliant device.
Here's one source: "Measured in milliseconds, hold-up time indicates how long a PSU can sustain its output within specified voltage limits after a loss or drop in input power. ATX 3.1 features a shorter hold-up time of 12ms, compared to ATX 3.0's 17ms hold-up time. This results in a small improvement in the PSU's efficiency." https://www.corsair.com/us/en/explorer/diy-builder/power-sup...
I haven't dug through the spec itself.
under voltage can do lots of things. Browning out with partial functionality can cause lots of problems. Some devices will pull about the same watts regardless of input voltage, so lower voltage means more current, and significant under voltage may require much higher than rated current and can damage connectors, leading to thermal runaway (loosened connector has more resistance -> more current -> more heat -> connector loosens). Brown outs during control sequences can lead to controlled loads running for longer than intended and over current situations too.
It typically shows up ‘randomly’ unless you know how to attribute it.
> Our previous reticence to measure UPSs was centered around the connection of our very nice $50,000 Rohde & Schwarz MXO58 oscilloscope directly to mains power. [...] What we do have is a Chroma 61507, a programmable AC power source, capable of generating its own isolated Alternating Current(AC) signal. The AC signal created by the Chroma 61507 is galvanically isolated from the "earth"/ground, providing a floating source.
This too seems to be a pretty expensive piece of gear (the price I found with a quick Google was >$28,000) so I think it's worth mentioning that the same job could be done with an isolation transformer, which costs maybe a couple hundred bucks.
For such low frequency stuff, it feels way safer to just buy a cheap <$500 scope for this kind of work. Using a $50k scope when it's not needed just seems needlessly risky.
Also, float the DUT, not the scope... Sometimes that's not possible, and the temptation is there, but it's really not worth it. Just buy the right gear like a diff probe. You can get one for a few hundred bucks if you don't mind going downmarket.
You can also use two probes and do CH2 - CH1. (Disconnect the GND clips!)
They should have spent $300 on a differential probe.
The higher end scopes can have some nice power analysis packages.
I hope nobody sees this article and tries to replicate the experiments as presented. You can get away with it when everything goes correctly, but a diff probe is good insurance.
It's worth noting that there's already ATX power supplies that are built to run directly off battery power. They don't look all that impressive but they exist. https://www.powerstream.com/DC_PC.htm https://synoceantech.com/index.php?page=lotinfo&lot=36
It’s cheap and easy (relatively) to transform AC voltages, and hence to manage AC power distribution. DC is trickier, and voltage switching is relatively more expensive and flakier. Hence why DC distribution tends to be within a device/controlled setup.