Trial of 12mph bike lane speed limit grinds gears of Dutch cyclists

ddefrost about 4 hours ago 39 commentsRead Article on theguardian.com

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Discussion (39 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

pvtmert•about 2 hours ago

They need a distinction between pedal assist and fully electric (motor) bike.

I live in Luxembourg and the infrastructure is not as good as the Netherlands. Majority of offenders (in my experience) are delivery guys and teenagers. Where teenagers simply don't care & do reckless things like passing on a big intersection at full speed on a red light, delivery guys do the same things for extra tips.

Some of the fat-tire electric bikes are really fast, I happen to chase them on Kirchberg cycle road. I sustained 40km/h average behind delivery guys and they were still faster, eventually dropping me. (I was on a road bike).

Simply put, anything above 250watts does not belong to cycle lane.Includes humans :j

graemep•33 minutes ago

Teenagers do dangerous things on normal bicycles too. The nearest I have ever come to an accident with a bicycle while driving (in the UK) was a teenager shooting out at high speed across the road from behind a parked van. Having cyclists sharing space with pedestrians is made worse by ebikes (which are effectively mopeds or motorbikes) but is a real problem with pedal bikes too in some places.

jmorenoamor•about 3 hours ago

The boundary between a bicycle and a motorbike has completely dissapeared.

That boundary needs to be recovered, and then rules will make sense again, until then, any effort is futile.

ErroneousBosh•about 1 hour ago

> The boundary between a bicycle and a motorbike has completely dissapeared.

Not really. The first motorbikes were bicycles with engines attached. Many current electric motorcycles are bicycles with electric motors attached.

If it has a throttle and does not require pedal assist, it is a motorcycle.

david-gpu•31 minutes ago

A pedal-assist e-bike with a 500 Watt motor and an easily bypassed speed governor looks like a bicycle, it is pedaled like a bicycle, and yet it is unsuitable for a bicycle lane or a path shared with pedestrians.

rcxdude•9 minutes ago

Pedal-assist feels to me like a complete red herring to the actual issues. It's often an arbitrary line but it doesn't make much difference to safety at all. (nor, IMO, do power limits: I would think an acceleration limit would be a more sensible option).

lifestyleguru•about 2 hours ago

I think it's pretty clear what is a bicycle. Bicycles don't have engines.

krater23•about 2 hours ago

Do you? At least the german law not. Looks like the law in the nederlands too.

lifestyleguru•about 2 hours ago

German law is created for litigation not for clarification.

rXwubXUGAm•about 1 hour ago

Not necessarily against the idea but 20kph is very slow. It would be super easy to accidentally go over the limit unless you have a cycling computer attached to the bike and constantly monitor your speed.

swarnie•about 1 hour ago

The exact same argument can be made for cars.

Doesn't stop the government wasting half my Saturday and stealing £100 every couple of years.

We should congratulate cyclist on becoming fully fledged (oppressed) road users.

Macha•17 minutes ago

Cars are heavier, have longer stopping distances, poorer visibility and have speed measuring equipment installed.

20kph is not a difficult speed for an adult on a push bike on a flat surface, so we’re not just talking about ebikes where a mandatory speedometer could make sense

david-gpu•21 minutes ago

Drivers kill and severely injure people at rates higher than all other violent crime combined.

https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/9789240086517?hl=en-...

huhkerrf•about 4 hours ago

> “This is all about cyclists on motorised bicycles, so I should think you would do something about motorised cyclists. Make a rule for them and not for all cyclists.”

There's a certain sub strain of cyclists that want absolutely no rules for them.

In a just world, cyclists would have more freedom than cars, but pedestrians would have most of all. But walking through European cities with large cycling cultures can be dangerous, too, especially for children and the elderly. Too often, cyclists will completely ignore stop signs and stop lights, or go at full speed on the sidewalks.

And because I know someone is going to retort that car drivers break traffic laws, too: drivers acting dangerously shouldn't excuse cyclists.

aix1•about 3 hours ago

What that woman you quoted said definitely resonates with me. I cycle a lot and the rise of e-bikes has definitely made my experience worse. Those bikes are capable of inficting a lot more damage yet I find that the average skill level of e-bike riders tends to be lower than that of the general cycling population. IMO not a great combination.

globular-toast•about 3 hours ago

I don't like to think of it in terms of freedom. Everyone has the same freedom to use public highways. The difference is responsibility. If you decide to use a bicycle you have a bit more responsibility than if you walk because they can go faster. If you decide to use a motor vehicle then it should come with a huge amount of extra responsibility. Ultimately you have the added responsibility of ensuring the safety and freedoms of those more vulnerable road users. So it's not "less freedom", it's "greater responsibility".

graemep•31 minutes ago

The problem is that there are effective mechanisms for punishing irresponsible drivers (and motor cyclists), but none (at least here in the UK) for punishing irresponsible cyclists.

The other problem is that cyclists often share space with pedestrians. I see cyclists on the pavement all the time (mostly illegally - and without consequences), I never see a car driving on the pavement (some park on the pavement, which is annoying).

aix1•about 3 hours ago

I find it mind blowing that ~42% of all cycling deaths are men aged 70+.

It obviously confounds fragility with participation but, still, it must mean that people continue to use bikes -- I'm guessing increasingly e-bikes -- well into their old age.

(42% is 118/281 in the report.)

rcxdude•6 minutes ago

I wonder how many of those are just heart attacks triggered by the exertion. A member of my family died that way (though they were not that old, and were relatively fit)

fjfaase•about 3 hours ago

I think that if you as 60+ person cannot bike without support your brain is probably also not fit enough anymore for the speed you are going to ride at. So, I advice older people not to use an e-bike. I am not going to use one. Maybe a trike is a safe option at speeds not exceeding 10km/h.

orbital-decay•about 3 hours ago

>Amsterdam and Enschede are banning wide-tyre fat bikes from some central locations or parks

What's the reason? Ordinary fatbikes aren't fast, and e-bikes are fast in any case.

ricardobeat•about 2 hours ago

> Ordinary fatbikes aren't fast

Most fatbikes have a much more powerful motor than a regular e-bike, and can be used without pedaling at all. They are listed as 250W, but it's actually a software-limited 750W motor. Local vendors provide unlock instructions along with the bike.

Instead of the 25km/h legal limit, they can go 40-50km/h: https://v8fatbike.com/how-to-unlock-ouxi-v8-speed-limit/

It's just a motorcycle in disguise. Then, to make matters worse, they weigh 30-40KG + two 12-year-olds on top - that, combined with reckless riding, can do a lot more damage than a boring cycling incident.

orbital-decay•about 1 hour ago

I mean ordinary as non-electric. I know what an electric fatbike can do of course. The article makes it ambiguous as it's talking about the common limit for all cyclists.

lifestyleguru•about 2 hours ago

People drive fatbikes from solely selfish reasons. They want something heavier and larger than others, they want others to give way and be afraid of collision.

4gotunameagain•about 3 hours ago

The reason is that the fat bikes are widely popular with young delinquents, typically of the immigrant kind.

They have the absolute worst reputation around Amsterdam.

reacharavindh•about 2 hours ago

You could’ve said what you said except the “immigrant kind” bit. I see enough Dutch assholes on fat bikes just as well. No need to be xenophobic here.

pineaux•about 2 hours ago

Nah, its almost for sure xenophobic and classist. I think fat bikes are the best thing that happened to amsterdam because all the scooters disappeared. All the poor people that used to ride scooters are now riding fat bikes. Its better for their health and their wallet. Yes they tend to be a bit less educated and socialised, but they were like that when they drove scooters as well. Banning fat bikes is gesture politics.

seper8•about 2 hours ago

They should just limit electric bikes to 15km/h.

If you want to go faster, pedal yourself.

This solves two problems:

- Cool kids aren't cool anymore, biking on their now slow ass fatbikes

- Old people who's mental faculties can't keep up with 25km/h anymore dont end up in so many traffic accidents.

cinntaile•about 1 hour ago

Your suggestion would completely kill e-bikes, I don't think that is a good idea. Above a certain speed limit they should need to ride on the regular road though. On a regular e-bike you don't get up to 25km/h without putting in the effort. If their mental capacities are that far gone, they won't be able to go that fast anyway. They'll top out at 20km/h or something.

globular-toast•about 3 hours ago

12mph seems very slow, but I suppose you can still cycle in the carriageway if you're a decent cyclist?

Really we need to ban motorised vehicles that go above 12mph. They are not bicycles and should not be in cycleways. I feel there is a big difference between someone who is able to pedal at higher speeds and someone who is just using a motor vehicle.

ricardobeat•about 2 hours ago

Cycling on the road is only allowed where there are no bike lanes, which is very rare.

lifestyleguru•about 2 hours ago

Cycling culture and infrastructure in Dutch cities is unique. Shame that it's wrecked by assholes who want something bigger and faster, or drive outright electric motorbikes.

boesboes•about 1 hour ago

I cycle at 14mph average on a normal pedal bicycle.. they can fuck right off the with this. We are not all fat fucks on electric scooters pretending to be bicycles

paddim8•about 3 hours ago

20 km/h is nothing. On a bike lane you should be allowed to go normal biking speed

raphman•about 3 hours ago

As the article says: this is not a general speed limit but an experimental speed limit for an apparently very crowded area where many kids cycle to school. As someone whose 'normal biking speed' ist typically 30+ km/h on suitable bike lanes, I have no problems with speed limits at critical choke points.

krater23•about 2 hours ago

I life on a big street intersection with traffic lights in a city. Every year I can observe at least one cyclist crash with a car. Mostly because they just ignore the traffic lights completely. As cyclist you learn that traffic rules are not for you, because when you ignore them, normally nothing happens. When you want to safe lives, you need to register bikes and punish cyclists that ignore traffic rules. Otherwise the physics will do it, with much harder punishment.

expedition32•about 1 hour ago

In most countries people use bicycles as some form of leisure travel but Dutch cycling is a need for speed!

Tourist tip if you are ever in Amsterdam: check the ferry next to the train station during rush hour. It is the equivalent of Shibuya crossing only for cyclists. Pure madness but somehow it all works like clockwork.