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Analyzed from 1746 words in the discussion.

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#fiction#writing#don#more#game#money#text#read#content#ideas

Discussion (53 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

_matt_about 3 hours ago
Interesting analysis, but data "was collected between April 2023 and May 2024", so this predates even the release of GPT 4o.
Sebguerabout 3 hours ago
SillyTavern and the size of like Character.ai at its peak shows pretty obviously that people are doing exactly this!
MarkusQabout 3 hours ago
> Are readers generating fiction with AI models?

Why not? Journalists, lawyers and pundits of various stripes are already doing it. Why shouldn't readers?

bawolffabout 3 hours ago
Because fiction is a different genere and historically at least AI was much worse at it.

The big differences:

- fiction tends to be longer, AI struggles with making a satisfying coherent plot structure after a certain length.

- fiction tends to be subtler. You want characters to have nuance, shades of grey, symbolism, etc. Not everything should be shouted in your face. This is the opposite of writing persusaive literature where you are trying to convince someone of something.

ACCount37about 2 hours ago
And also: there's no money in writing fiction.

There's money in copywriting, there's money in writing code, but long form creative writing? Almost an opposite of money.

Thus, very little incentive for AI labs to spend any effort on improving long form creative writing performance.

Most of tunes on this generation of AI systems are basic RLAF, and aimed at something like "punchy short form writing". The potential is largely unexplored.

kshackerabout 2 hours ago
I tried it once. Maybe 8-9 months back.I recall doing it soon after one travel, so that's why I can pinpoint it and this may be useful to figure which AI versions were available then.

The challenge is length and the context window. I had to own the plot since once it compacts, it has already lost the plot :)

I will give it pointers and tell where to go next. It will do it but either 1) stop after 3-4 paragraphs, or 2) write in a totally different direction than I expected. So I will nudge it to course correct, and it will do it. And then you keep iterating.

It was a good experiment for a couple of days. It saved me typing and it sometimes gave me lines of thinking that were interesting. But nothing that could be published.

But now that I think about it, I found a use case. If only GRRM could use its help :)

MarkusQabout 2 hours ago
My point was, LLMs always generate fiction (bad fiction, but fiction nonetheless); what they generate is plausible, grammatical text that may have many points of congruence with the truth, but are not in any way constrained to do so. In short, fiction.

If they could reliably generate high quality non-fiction, that would be news.

gowldabout 2 hours ago
"wrong" or "random" is not the same as "fiction"

"non-fiction" doesn't mean "correct".

tbrownawabout 2 hours ago
I suspect that those other groups are largely not trying to generate fiction.
dlenski38 minutes ago
I didn't see the word "try" in the headline, did you?
overgardabout 3 hours ago
Because nobody wants to read AI generated text?
fluoridationabout 3 hours ago
No, nobody wants to read someone else's AI-generated text. Some people don't mind reading text generated to their own specifications.
dofm27 minutes ago
This is quite an important point.
rhdunnabout 3 hours ago
Tell that to the LLM RP crowd.
mirabilisabout 3 hours ago
I think you lose that draw of interactivity when you’re essentially reading someone else’s RP, though.
CookieCrispabout 3 hours ago
You do not represent everyone
bigfishrunningabout 2 hours ago
Yeah, but i do, and i agree with the parent comment
bawolffabout 3 hours ago
> We show that users especially gravitate toward fanfiction and erotica

Why am i not surprised its primarily porn

lonely_wandererabout 3 hours ago
Erotica is a whole separate class of smut than porn (in the cultural sense, that we understand the term “porn”). It’s literally like calling a book a movie.

It’s also, on the whole, a much more ethical and engaging form of smut. I don’t really have an issue with the choices of consenting adults, but the (video and image) pornography industry is so seldom that.

tbrownawabout 2 hours ago
I've heard that word used to refer to (still) pictures, and in more casual/offhand use to refer to text. I don't understand it as being quite so restricted by media-type as you seem to.
LoganDarkabout 2 hours ago
- If you can generate something you're happy with, that's typically enough. External validation usually isn't a requirement for getting off to yourself, as opposed to other content where many of the primary benefits often are sharing

- Plenty of people are into very niche things. Sometimes almost nothing exists (or is discoverable) that exactly hits the spot. Generative AI lets you hit the spot that nothing else has

- AI is less complex than managing a real friendship. Even if people exist who can help you out with this, it can be difficult to arrange, or you lose access to them etc. AI doesn't lose interest in you, get busy with life stuff or decide you don't deserve a second chance.

Also sharing is still a huge benefit if you can manage it. Sometimes you will only find other people share your spot once you start posting the type of content they've been looking for. (Woe is me that FurAffinity unconditionally bans any LLM assistance now)

jadboxabout 2 hours ago
Fwiw, the unconditionally bans can almost be viewed as 'proof of human' when so many bots are running on autopilot on places like DA. UwU
LoganDarkabout 1 hour ago
I don't mind bans on fully generated content, I just feel it's a bit unfair to ban any usage of generative AI anywhere.
0gsabout 2 hours ago
I think I probably did 12 whole books before I realized no one else would read them, or that if they did, I would feel guilty. some of them are really good though even knowing they are purely plan-based expression!
piloto_ciegoabout 3 hours ago
I had a sci-fi plot sketched out in my head, I had Codex give a whack at it. It was "ok" - not the worst content I've ever read, not the best. It was "sufficient."
jagged-chiselabout 2 hours ago
But now you have a starting point to edit from. Just find a bit more motivation to continue writing...
zemabout 1 hour ago
my speculation is that not having written the original text means you don't have a mental history of all the decisions that went into writing it, and the context from being immersed in the work, making it a lot harder and less motivating to go write the next draft.
QuercusMaxabout 3 hours ago
Probably would be good to write up a TTRPG adventure, though!
fragmedeabout 2 hours ago
It's a very fun to go on an exploration of a theme! I had one where the technology was that people could go to sleep for free, but they had to pay to wake up, and when, and the economics and how society got rebuilt around that, and of course the hero trying to break the system.
GoodJokesabout 3 hours ago
Don’t outsource your brain. Give your brain a whack at it.
saltwatercowboyabout 3 hours ago
Language game solipsism
sriramgopalanabout 4 hours ago
This is interesting. We have seen the internet change many fields and democratize them. For instance, only a few media outlets produced news stories and analysis, the rest of us consumed it. Blogging changed that.

Only a few studios produced shows. With Youtube etc., many of the consumers could become producers themselves.

If I read this correctly, books and fiction are headed in the same direction.

idle_zealotabout 4 hours ago
I'm not sure about that comparison. For news and television your analogues of blogs and YouTube overcome a distribution bottleneck. Books have for a long time had a low barrier to entry for distribution and that fell further with the internet. There are mountains of amateur fiction and fanfiction online, requiring only an internet-connected device to produce and consume.

LLM-written fiction as explored in the study is generally not published at all. It's treated more like an externalized imagination, a loop of general ideas fed into and expanded on or filled in by the machine with statistical averages. It more closely resembles a sandbox game in my view, a type of media distinct from anything before it in form, and even more distinct in function in that media is generally understood to be a vector of communication between people, and this is instead highly individual.

Actually, it might be closer to say this is similar to a child playing pretend alone with their toys, except perhaps a bit less challenging in that creative roadblocks or narrative building is instantly abdicatable to the machine.

ctothabout 4 hours ago
> Actually, it might be closer to say this is similar to a child playing pretend alone with their toys, except perhaps a bit less challenging in that creative roadblocks or narrative building is instantly abdicatable to the machine.

Wouldn't the obvious analogue be a video game? Especially one where you can edit the asset files (making your weapons super-strong, for instance?)

idle_zealotabout 3 hours ago
No, actually. In a video game the rules of engagement and the content you're engaging with are authored by other people. It's interactive media, but it's still a form of communication with boundaries and intent behind it. You can break those bounds with cheats or tools in the same way you can mark up a novel and write in your own ending with whiteout and a pen, but you're still fundamentally engaging with someone's creation.

An LLM-authored interactive fiction is a sandbox with no author, with no boundaries and no intent. It's a canvas, and all limitations on content are self-imposed. It's closer to making a game than to playing one, but there is no game in the end that you can share. You're left with a transcript that only really appeals to you. It is not the game. The game fundamentally lives in the player's imagination, and the LLM is there to ease the realization of that imagination and, if I'm being uncharitable, do the hard part of synthesizing ideas and impulses into something semi-coherent, limiting the potential for the player to grow and develop creative skills.

webstrandabout 4 hours ago
Web fiction, freely produced and distributed by "consumers" already existed prior to 2019. There are thousands of novels you can read that people produced for their own enjoyment, some even managed to make money off of it via patreon or Amazon's Kindle direct publishing.
r3trohack3rabout 4 hours ago
This is slightly different than web fiction. Text generation is arguably the cheapest and most “ready” medium for content production in the current AI wave.

You can speak a world into existence, entirely customized to you’re preferences, and interact with it.

ctothabout 4 hours ago
You should suggest some!

I recommend Super Supportive[0].

[0]: https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/63759/super-supportive

overgardabout 3 hours ago
Why would you need to "democratize" fiction? There's literally zero cost of entry already. Fiction probably needs more gate keeping.
plastic-enjoyerabout 3 hours ago
> If I read this correctly, books and fiction are headed in the same direction.

I don't really see how AI 'democratizes' fiction and book writing?

lelanthranabout 3 hours ago
> I don't really see how AI 'democratizes' fiction and book writing?

When people say "AI will democratise $FOO" they don't mean it the way it is usually understood: people with skill and motivation can now produce $FOO.

What they mean is that people with no skill and no motivation can now pretend that they produced $FOO.

Remember the "I'm the ideas guy" people who would ask you to build a complete system and offer 1% equity because "the ideas are the hard part"? Well, the future is going to be filled with "ideas guys", making it even harder to find signal in the noise.

fragmedeabout 2 hours ago
You need to learn to be able to say no to people as a life skill, first off, but if the ideas guy has vibecoded a mountain of code that they're trying to ship, but has hit the vibe wall, and has money to pay you to fix it, say yes.
zabriel_gossabout 4 hours ago
Books and fiction were some of the first to be democratized as a result of the internet.
lubujacksonabout 3 hours ago
So fans have fan fiction because they love certain worlds and characters and want more of it, or to riff on the base to take stories in new directions. We have things like TV tropes so it is no small stretch to, say, generate sitcom-type stories from Harry Potter or GoT that can continue forever. But where does all of this lead?

Music has sinilar issues, but I think of this like the compression/loudness issue in music production. Everything gets amplified so the range of everything is compressed. And then it gets boring and people slowly jump ship for something else.

I think there will be a wave of AI slop that improves and might actually be exciting on some vector, but we will get bored eventually. Humans crave newness, even if that new thing is worse in exactly the ways that defined good previously, like punk in response to complex rock albums.

AI can combine ideas in interesting ways, but it is by design a predictor of what is most likely. This is directly odds with the concept of newness (and arguably, human-ness) which is baked in to what we consider interesting and relevant.

fluoridationabout 3 hours ago
I don't get your point. Do people not get bored and move on to something else one way or the other? What exactly is different?
isoprophlexabout 2 hours ago
For fun I wrote three chapters, and let opus write the 4th. It was god fucking awful. No amount of prompting could fix it.
SilentM68about 2 hours ago
Yes, they are. People have to find ways to make money to pay rent, bills and eat, particularly when their resumes are not as densely packed as others. This is one way to do it. Wish I could do it, too :)
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vlian2088about 2 hours ago
LLMs suck at creative writing, all their edges get smoothed the fuck out of with RLHF for (brand) safety, so they write like they have a HR lady in the room with them, scrutinizing every sentence for adherence to the set of values very few people honestly hold. if you feed Claude/GPT/Gemini 100 chapters of ASOIAF and prompt it to continue, the story and the prose will degenerate into sterile purple slop within a few pages.