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Discussion (72 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

anyonecancodeabout 18 hours ago
I first learned about New Sweden several years ago from reading The Barbarous Years[0]. Now I always think about it whenever I drive south toward Maryland and DC when I cross the Delaware and see signs for towns like Swedesboro (NJ) and various Cristiana/Christiana place names in DE.

[0]https://bookshop.org/p/books/the-barbarous-years-the-peoplin...

Electricnikoabout 17 hours ago
New Sweden also gave America one of the first attempted colonial rebellions against English rule.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolt_of_the_Long_Swede

5555624about 11 hours ago
> But chances are, almost none of those coming realises that the US's political and ideological birthplace was once part of a little-known Swedish colony known as Nya Sverige (New Sweden).

Or they think Virginia has a strong claim to be "the US's political and ideological birthplace." The author of the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson was from Virginia. The "Father of the Constitution," James Madison, was from Virginia. George Washington was from Virginia.

It's not like only one European country had colonies in the pre-United States.

Brendinoooabout 7 hours ago
> But chances are, almost none of those coming realises that [Philadelphia] was once part of a little-known Swedish colony known as Nya Sverige (New Sweden).

That's all it's trying to say in this sentence. It's not trying to say that the New Sweden colony was actually the US's political and ideological birthplace. (That's how you read it, right? I'm not sure how your last sentence makes sense otherwise; Philadelphia was a creation of the same European country as Virginia.)

flumes_whims_about 5 hours ago
The article mentioned the "the 12-year-old Queen of Sweden" which is quite an interesting story of its own.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christina,_Queen_of_Sweden

oljwo398ogrjabout 2 hours ago
The ship having the Finnish flag is just a bit anachronistic methinks. Finland would have been under Swedish rule back then (and Swedish, which used to be a language of the elite, is still an official language albeit spoken by a ~5% minority nowadays). The Finnish flag didn't become a thing until much, much later. Even the nationalist Fennoman movement was started by Swedes.

Did you know that Finns weren't always considered white? If you do a bit of Wikipedia spelunking, you'll find e.g. an old German map that paints Finland yellow for 'mongoloid'. Weird, eh? Somewhat recently the Swedes returned some Finnish skulls that were stolen and studied by so-called racial 'scientists'. Also, Finns were apparently called 'China Swedes' in the States.

Another fun fact for those interested: Finnish is a Uralic language, related to neither Swedish nor Russian. In fact, the Uralic languages are a family separate from Indo-European languages.

leviathantabout 5 hours ago
There is an Ikea in south Philadelphia not far from the Old Swedes Church, but they do not do anything to promote the Swedish history there, however brief.

The colors of the flag is Philadelphia pay homage to this Swedish heritage.

21asdffdsa12about 12 hours ago
I knew it- that architecture- those red houses with the wide windowframe.. that is swedish..
ameliusabout 12 hours ago
I'm wondering why the Vikings didn't conquer the Americas long before.
inglor_czabout 10 hours ago
Logistics was not on their side.

You can easily sail with a fleet of several hundred longships across smaller bodies of water like the North Sea and concentrate enough power to threaten existing kingdoms on the other side. This is a journey of ~ 3 days, and under optimal conditions, they could make it across in a day and a half.

Sending even a tenth of that force across the Northern Atlantic, with its different weather patterns, longer distances, icebergs and very few places to replenish your resources (Iceland yes, Greenland maybe - they lived fairly on the edge as it was, with not much of a food surplus), was not feasible. A few ships could do it, but a few ships means a few people, and in the Americas, which were settled by other people already, it meant that you were a somewhat weak guest to someone else's territory, and you could always be thrown out or made to leave.

gradschoolabout 6 hours ago
I blame it all on one guy. What if that plonker who broke ranks on the English side during the battle of Hastings after the English had successfully held the high ground against the French all day stayed in bed that morning, and William the Conqueror just had to bugger off back where he came from? The British Isles turn away from Europe and develop stronger ties with Scandinavian countries over the ensuing centuries. A kingdom of the north eventually extends to encompass Iceland, Greenland, Newfoundland, and the Iroquois confederation well before Columbus. With first contact happening at a time when neither side has any technological advantage, the relationship becomes more of an alliance than a colonization. I don't know how to extrapolate further except to imagine that the world looks very different.
wat10000about 5 hours ago
The English didn't have the easiest time of it, despite substantially more advanced technology, much better resources backing up the whole enterprise, and a native population devastated by diseases brought earlier by the Spanish.
colechristensenabout 10 hours ago
They didn't develop ships suitable for crossing the Atlantic.

You and a group of your buddies would get together while you were young, build boats, and go be pirates for a while until it was time to settle down somewhere.

There isn't a straightforward transition to the larger amount of organization and economy needed to build the larger more sophisticated ships to cross the Atlantic and land somewhere southerly enough to meaningfully colonize.

AndrewAndrewsenabout 11 hours ago
they did
arrowsmithabout 10 hours ago
They briefly visited, they didn't "conquer"
hammockabout 7 hours ago
The Vikings didn’t “conquer” new lands the way you might imagine. Rather than just raiding, they often settled, intermingled with the locals farmers and established new states.

As seen in Scottish Isles, Ireland, Danelaw (England), Ukraine, Faroes, Iceland, Normandy, Greenland, Newfoundland etc they sack some leadership but quickly integrate and evolve into mostly peaceful farming societies

carlosjobimabout 8 hours ago
The book "Swedes on the Delaware" (or "The Swedes in America") is a comprehensive history of this colony:

https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/77652.epub3.images

The interesting part of the book to me was that the Swedes and the native American Indians negotiated as equals for the land purchase, it wasn't by means of violence or deceit. In the end they depended on the purchase of food from the natives during a bad harvest.

Amazing that modern Delawareans have built a beautiful replica of the Kalmar Nyckel ship, considering how little impact the Swedish colony had on American history.

All in all, Swedish and Dutch colonists, although enemies, treated each other very much as gentlemen. Taking a fort meant showing up with the larger force and the other surrendering. Forts changed hands several times, which isn't mentioned in the BBC article.

dreamcompilerabout 15 hours ago
There are a number of lesser-known chunks of American history like this.

One of my favorites is that Santa Fe has been the capital city of Nuevo Mexico since 1610. Acoma, another city in modern-day New Mexico, is about 500 years older still.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoma_Pueblo

alephnerdabout 15 hours ago
> One of my favorites is that Santa Fe has been the capital city of Nuevo Mexico since 1610. Acoma, another city in modern-day New Mexico, is about 500 years older still

We were taught this in California in elementary school. Spanish colonial history actually tends to be taught at the same time or earlier than East Coast history in much of the American West (usually as "California" or "Texas" or "Colorado" history).

dreamcompilerabout 5 hours ago
I grew up in Texas and took Texas history. I learned things like Texas being the only US state that was once an independent country and where the Six Flags came from (later the name of an amusement park empire that originated in Texas).

But they never taught us much about New Mexico.

wat10000about 5 hours ago
Vermont was also an independent country, and for longer than Texas was.
alephnerdabout 4 hours ago
Not New Mexico but New Spain is heavily taught - it's an entire section.

I also don't know when you were in K-7 but knowing HN's age demographics probably the 1980s to early 1990s.

From the 2000s onwards, New Spain and Spanish rule was prominent.

Here are the snippets of the Texas History textbook from around the time I was in grade school in the 2000s [0][1][2]

[0] - https://worleytxhistory.weebly.com/uploads/8/7/9/6/8796216/c...

[1] - https://worleytxhistory.weebly.com/uploads/8/7/9/6/8796216/c...

[2] - https://worleytxhistory.weebly.com/uploads/8/7/9/6/8796216/c...

lofaszvanittabout 3 hours ago
Looks like BBC is deliberately trolling the US... :DD
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reaperducerabout 16 hours ago
New Sweden: the US's long-lost 'secret' colony

I guess it's a secret to the Brits and the BBC. We learned about Swedish colonies in the Delaware Valley area in fifth grade history class.

So secret that it had its own U.S. postage stamp, as shown at the top of TFA.

There's lots of things that people learned in elementary school in the UK that I don't know about. That doesn't made them a secret.

eesmithabout 13 hours ago
The title refers to the secrecy related to its founding, not any present-day secrecy. From the text:

> "It started as sort of secret colony," said Deborah-Jean Hoffman, a board member at the New Sweden Centre, which promotes the Delaware Valley's colonial history. "The Swedes weren't flag-planting like the French or the Spanish. The idea was to create an under-the-radar colony where the Dutch wouldn't see them."

timc3about 14 hours ago
Its just a stupid headline isnt it, I am British born and knew about it but then again I also live in Sweden and like learning about history.
zazazacheabout 13 hours ago
I thought this was going to be about how Sweden’s claimed neutrality is a sham (even more so now that we joined NATO), but I guess it would have been vassal and not colony in the title if that were the case.
bananaflagabout 11 hours ago
The title is misleading because it is suggests it is about a colony of the US (like Phillipines), not a colony on territory which is now US.
comrade1234about 20 hours ago
This is stupid. And New York was new Amsterdam before the USA and a lot more people came through new Amsterdam (including my family) than whatnever new Sweden was. And the Netherlands was already a democracy before the USA's Declaration of Independence so they would have got ideas from that rather than whatever Sweden was. This is just reaching to write an article.
macintuxabout 19 hours ago
Or, just maybe, people are interested in knowing more about history? I certainly never knew there was a Swedish colony in the U.S., so I’m glad the article was written.
1659447091about 16 hours ago
> And New York was new Amsterdam before the USA

The article does not dispute this, in fact it's a big part of the New Sweden history in the article. The same person is credited for being responsible for both

> and a lot more people came through new Amsterdam (including my family) than whatnever new Sweden was

Again, Not in dispute. There are paragraphs about how it was a far-flung failed settlement that was taken twice, once by each Dutch and English -- but smooth way to throw in your families long US history coming in through such a a popular port as New Amsterdam. One of my ancestor lines came through some backcountry called Jamestown; def not a swank sounding place like modern-day NYC.

>> "Despite its territorial expansion, New Sweden never became the profitable venture it was conceived to become because it was chronically under-populated and neglected. The colony never counted more than about 400 people" [...] "From 1638-1655, this forgotten Swedish settlement extended across the Delaware Valley, encompassing parts of modern-day New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware and Maryland. In addition to being the smallest, least-populated and shortest-lived European colony in the US, it was also the most clandestine."

> so they would have got ideas from that rather than whatever Sweden was

Where does it even say anything about ideas for Declaration of Independence came from Sweden?

aaronbrethorstabout 17 hours ago
And New York was new Amsterdam before the USA and a lot more people came through new Amsterdam

Why they changed it, I can't say, people just liked it better that way.

eliassonabout 9 hours ago
Haha, clever!
BigTTYGothGFabout 18 hours ago
> And the Netherlands was already a democracy before the USA's Declaration of Independence

They were a republic.

intrasightabout 9 hours ago
The Republic of Venice formed in 697
BigTTYGothGFabout 5 hours ago
While technically correct, that doesn't prevent the Netherlands from also being one a millennium later.
euroderfabout 8 hours ago
San Marino claims the year 301 AD.
karlsheaabout 18 hours ago
A republic is a democracy.
ianburrellabout 16 hours ago
Republic back then meant commonwealth with any form of government. The Dutch Republic was loose union of seven provinces. Republic changed to mean democratic government by representatives without monarch.
randallsquaredabout 18 hours ago
It need not be democratic in the modern, universal suffrage sense.
stonogoabout 18 hours ago
Netherlands was not. It was a republic of oligarch-run states. They did not have even landholder suffrage until halfway through the 1800s.
ButlerianJihadabout 16 hours ago
Like the People’s Republic of China, the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics? Those ones?
fakedangabout 20 hours ago
Uh, what's your gripe? The article clearly states that the colony was pivotal to American history for two reasons - 1.) For creating the log cabin and 2.) For being the only colony to not have been at war with the natives by choice.

The article even says why the colony suffered - lack of supplies and immigrants to the colony from Sweden. That even corroborates with your point.

And yes, imo those two reasons are pretty significant enough reason to remember that New Sweden existed.

zkmonabout 16 hours ago
What an irony - the once European colonies which depended on their motherlands to defend them in an alien land, now become a menace or estranged godfather to Europe.
carlosjobimabout 7 hours ago
Now? The last name of the man who conquered Europe through a crusade of enormous bloodshed was Eisenhower.
alephnerdabout 15 hours ago
At least 25% of us Americans have never had blood or ethnic ties with Europe.

African Americans make up around 15% of the US, Asian Americans around 7%, Arab Americans around 1.5%, and Native Americans around 2%.

That percentage is likely much higher when you factor Latino Americans - the plurality of whom either have indigenous or African ethnic origins. And some of America's richest and most politically powerful states like California and Texas have some of the lowest rates of European heritage in the nation.

This whole "America is European" mentality reeks of West European supremacy and fails to recognize how diverse America is. The only European ethnic groups who still have active blood and ethnic ties with the old country tend to be Central and Eastern Europeans or Irish Americans - large pluralities of whom were forced to leave the old country due to colonial reasons (the Russian Empire, Austro-Hungarian Empire, and British rule in Ireland was equally destructive as colonial rule outside Europe).

Alternatively, the only reason Western Europe didn't have a Park Chung Hee, Suharto, or Zia was because Europeans who were naturalized Americans like Brzeziński (Poland), Kissinger (Germany), and Albright (Czechoslovakia) ran policy during the Cold War era.

The modern equivalents of Brzeziński, Albright, and Kissinger are all either Heritage (ie. Pre-Civil War), Latino, Asian, or Arab American.

Why should European states be given privileges that Japan, South Korea, Phillipines, Taiwan, and others weren't extended until the last 30 years?

We are not a European ethnostate. We are America.

true_religionabout 15 hours ago
To be fair, the US is arguably even more of a menace to Asia, Africa, the Middle East, and even the descendent of native Americans who live in other countries (e.g. Mexico).

So the OPs point is internally consistent, even generalized past a mentality that 'reeks of West European supremacy'.

alephnerdabout 15 hours ago
As an Asian American I strongly disagree, as do most others of us non-white Americans.

You guys don't actually understand how stuff actually works here or how we think. Our (Asian and Latino) ancestral countries economies are heavily tied with the US and leadership in our ancestral countries (excluding PRC ofc) remains either pro-Trump (look at the elections all across Latin America this year) or pro-America but Trump ambivalent (eg. Brazil and India).

And unlike Europe, at least in Asia all the states began arming and building strategic autonomy all the way back in the Obama 1 admin as part of the "Pivot to Asia".

You guys also don't seem to get the fact that the plurality of Americans have viewed Asia and not Europe as our most important partner since all the way back in 2009 [0].

We (the non-Europe aligned Americans) are increasingly climbing the rungs to become the decisionmaker's now in both parties.

Benign Atlanticism is dead in 2026. All that matters now is G2.

If that means both us and China squeezing Europe until it pops, so be it - when elephants fight it's the grass that gets stomped on.

[0] - https://www.politico.eu/article/americans-turn-their-backs-o...

jltsirenabout 12 hours ago
> At least 25% of us Americans have never had blood or ethnic ties with Europe.

> African Americans make up around 15% of the US, Asian Americans around 7%, Arab Americans around 1.5%, and Native Americans around 2%.

Those are cultural identities. The average African American has ~20% European ancestry. Latin Americans vary by country and region of origin, but on the average, they have more European than Native American ancestry.

alephnerdabout 12 hours ago
Yes, but most do not associate with some form of European identity or solidarity. The overwhelming majority of African Americans do not view Europeans as their kin and vice versa. Same with a plurality of Latinos depending on where they come from as well as their race.

OP's comment represents a very common sentiment and implication I've noticed amongst Europeans:

1. That America is inherently "European" and always will be

2. America has an obligation to Europe over other regions of the world

3. Americans view Europe as more important than other regions of the world

4. That Americans from non-European backgrounds are not in policymaking positions or that our opinions don't affect American political discourse

The Atlanticist world that existed from 1945 to 2008 only existed because the older generation of national security advisors and foreign policy hands in the US were first-generation European immigrants.

Their era is long gone on both sides of the aisle. Culturally, America is much closer now to Latin America or Asia looking at music, television, and fashion. Economically (based on bilateral trade flow), America is much closer to Asia and the Americas than Europe. And even demographically, those with living blood ties to Europe are a fraction of those with living blood ties to Asia or Latin America.

And the rise of "Heritage Americans" as an ethnic identifier also highlights how the one subgroup of white Americans who might have been open to keeping ties with Europe is turning their back on the continent as well.

Asia and the Americas are prepared for such a world, but Europeans still think America has some obligation to help them or treat their states as equals when they are at best junior partners.

rapidaneurismabout 15 hours ago
I had the impression that (at least some of) those groups contain people of mixed ancestry including European ancestry.

Am I wrong? Is the child of a white person and a black person not considered black in the US? Is that not the case form the other groups too?

alephnerdabout 15 hours ago
Mixed Race is a separate census designation which represents an additional 10% of the US.

Either way Europeans overestimate American ties to Europe. If you actually visit America in 2026, most culture is either domestic, Asian, or Latino.

Heck, the majority of Americans began viewing Asia and not Europe as America's most important partners back in 2009 [0].

[0] - https://www.politico.eu/article/americans-turn-their-backs-o...

r3trohack3rabout 15 hours ago
> America is European

When I hear this, I think of the philosophy, system of laws, language, etc. in America - and not the percentages we get when we segregate the American population by their ancestors.

alephnerdabout 14 hours ago
What I mean is we aren't going to give European states undue favoritism due to personal ties, which Brzeziński, Kissinger, and Albright all did in some shape or form.

After 1945, Western Europe got Pan-Atlanticism but now much more dynamic South Korea, Taiwan, Japan, etc got dictatorships, military rule, and single party rule.

Now that we are pivoting to our Hemisphere and Asia due to G2, the gloves have begun to fall off with regards to Europe.

US-Asia trade already dwarfs US-Europe trade, and Europe is a secondary concern compared to G2.

carlosjobimabout 7 hours ago
> African Americans make up around 15%

Almost all African Americans have some European heritage by blood. If you go to Africa you will see some truly dark skinned people, who haven't any European ancestry. How can you not have noticed this in a world of global broadcasts?

abcdxyz999about 15 hours ago
There is no real supremacy for western europeans since they built wealth by looting others. They didn't have to do that. Analogy would be some persons doing bank robbery, chain snatching, slavery etc instead of doing agriculture without slavery or working in a real ethical job which isn't cheating or looting or harming others to earn income or wealth.
abcdxyz999about 15 hours ago
They could have survived and thrived without colonialism or slavery or imperialism.