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Related: Kimi-K3 on HuggingFace - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49065752
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Discussion (115 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews
If you are a large enough company that spends million+ on inference a month, it makes sense to buy a GB300 rack ($6M on top range from what I could find) which has 20.7 TB. Since the model is mixed trained (MXFP4), you would need less than 10% of the rack's memory to serve the full model. Aggregate HBM bandwidth: 576 TB/s. You can run over 6000 parallel agentic workflows (each with ~100k context on average) at ~30 tok/s.
Assuming the annual amortization+electricity at $1.5M/year and about 50% average annual utilization, you get less than 60 cents (USD) per million output token, for a frontier model with plenty of capacity to share, all your data never leaving premises and well over an order of magnitude cheaper!
As long as a company believes that the openweight models will continue to get more capable and 'AI is here to stay', this model provides the first solid footing for a decision to just buy a rack.
That another 400 to 700k.
It becomes your problem and not someone else’s. However, I don’t trust hosted LLMs for anything that needs to be private.
40% overhead is quite typical, so you'd be looking at $120k/year. In the USA I'd consider that a competitive salary for an admin capable or keeping a $6M rack of specialized hardware running 24/7.
Why not? Do you trust AWS with things that need to be private?
Having these models in the open caps the inference margin.
Not a devops but I'd say one full time is already too many.
(managed an entire data center building with thousands of servers a lifetime ago with ~2-3 other people, it’s only gotten easier over the last two decades imho)
> 4. The requirements set forth in Sections 2 and 3 do not apply to: (a) internal use of the Software, defined as any use that does not make the Software, its outputs, or its underlying capabilities available to third parties; [...]
Anyone who claims open source and open weights models are "decel" needs to get their head checked
https://github.com/MoonshotAI/MoonEP
https://github.com/kvcache-ai/AgentEnv
https://github.com/MoonshotAI/FlashKDA
Decel:
- Potentially reduces investor appetite for funding big labs.
- More risk of powerful AI getting in bad hands -> more regulation.
Accel:
- More competition so big labs can't rest on laurels.
- More research in open, so all labs can accrete advancements faster.
I feel like open-source = acceleration has a much more clear argument. (and how bad would deceleration be in any case?)
The problem with the decel/accel rhetoric is that it lacks nuance.
Kimi K3 is plausibly a lot less dangerous than a totally jailbroken ChatGPT/Gemini/Claude Sonnet (let alone Opus or Fable!) and it's quite deeply weird how no one seems to be calling for those models to be banned or restrained by further regulation. Why the double standard against the less concerning (but more efficient!) open weight models?
Put another way, if you want to slow things down, put it behind a paywall, tag ideas ans “intellectual property” (meaning you’re the only one who can use it) and get the lawyers involved (injecting our slow legal system).
None of the above is a judgement call on whether development should be accelerated.
I, for example, dislike reading comments complaining the submission (or another comment) is LLM generated. Focus on the content, not the style.
I'm not going to have my way, and nor shall you.
the only reason other labs can catch up is because the frontier labs can be distilled, and they siphon a % of the labs' revenue to reinvest into the next iteration
full accel would mean nationalizing the big 2 labs and locking in manhattan project style until RSI
(Edit: some great counterpoints in the replies. my view has definitely been changed!)
There's no chance K3 is a distill of Fable, it came out way too soon after the limited fable release to be feasbile.
If you look at all of the top ML conferences, chinese labs contribute way more to advances in ML than "Open"AI and Anthropic: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheMachineGod/comments/1pi4q7f/pape...
This K3 release just helped every other lab on the planet stay in the race by making it possible for them to build on top of it, placing them at the frontier starting line instead of having to spend billions of their own dollars and risking it all to attempt to catch up.
The open source contributions I linked to above will move the whole field forward and reduce the costs of training and inference for everyone.
Open science compounds on it self, every new advancement pushes the field forwards and opens up new grounds for future improvements.
It is impossible for a single closed lab to consistently stay ahead of the rest of the field, especially in a huge growing research area like machine learning. The only only advantage the big labs have is money, but the naive scaling game is not sustainable long term when you have to pay 10-100x more then the fast followers and we start getting more and more open models or use case specific models that can handle 90% of high volume use cases.
Research is a high variance, low expected value activity, meaning that the few large concentrated labs have to be conservative with their bets and double down on proven things when scaling up. The rest of the field is like a diversified portfolio, with thousands of players making smaller riskier bets that only require a few of them to succeed (like K3 did here, and DeepSeek a year ago)
EDIT: also if you look at most of the work from OpenAI, it's mostly taking existing promising open research work and scaling it up. (except for things like CLIP and etc from Alec Radford)
And years down the line, lots of other research labs used my code and cited my paper.
Further, you can just read the papers released alongside most open models. Plenty of hugely influential research results published that drive the frontier forward. It's not like these models are just existing architectures downloaded from Huggingface and trained on frontier lab APIs.
Frontier models would have to do something extraordinary or unique, or unreplicatable, because clearly there is no moat, and US companies are sitting on huge nvidia valuations and get surprised when competitors beat them.
> If the Licensee or any of its affiliates operates a Model as a Service business, and the aggregate revenue of the Licensee and its affiliates exceeds 20 million US dollars (or the equivalent in other currencies) in total over any consecutive 12 months, the Licensee must enter into a separate agreement with Moonshot AI before using the Software or its derivative works for any commercial purpose.
+ the existing 100 million monthly active users, or more than 20 million US dollars for commercial products have to name Kimi clause
The models they released in 2025 - https://huggingface.co/moonshotai/models - were clean MIT. They started doing the "modified MIT" thing in January 2026 with moonshotai/Kimi-K2-Thinking
"Modified MIT" is the perfect example of that.
I'm not saying it's unreasonable, or that you can't release under such a license - it's your software, use whatever license you like!
I'll call it "janky" when you do.
For people at the top of the tech pyramid, I could totally see why they'd want to put an end to all this "Open Source LLM" stuff.
If you want to assess the position of the U.S. Copyright Office for yourself, the relevant text can be found in the Compendium of U.S. Copyright Office Practices § 313.2, "Works That Lack Human Authorship"[2], which states:
> […] the Copyright Act protects “original works of authorship.” 17 U.S.C. § 102(a) (emphasis added). To qualify as a work of “authorship” a work must be created by a human being. See Burrow-Giles Lithographic Co., 111 U.S. at 58. Works that do not satisfy this requirement are not copyrightable.
> […] the Office will not register works produced by a machine or mere mechanical process that operates randomly or automatically without any creative input or intervention from a human author. The crucial question is “whether the ‘work’ is basically one of human authorship, with the computer [or other device] merely being an assisting instrument, or whether the traditional elements of authorship in the work (literary, artistic, or musical expression or elements of selection, arrangement, etc.) were actually conceived and executed not by man but by a machine.” U.S. COPYRIGHT OFFICE, REPORT TO THE LIBRARIAN OF CONGRESS BY THE REGISTER OF COPYRIGHTS 5 (1965).
[1] https://media.cadc.uscourts.gov/opinions/docs/2025/03/23-523...
[2] https://www.copyright.gov/comp3/chap300/ch300-copyrightable-...
It is a very rare (and ballsy, and perhaps incompetent) company that ignores their lawyers' recommendations to adhere to the letter of all of the software licenses they are bound to.
What was it?
That's interesting!
maybe some interesting theoretical work there around the rate of production of new knowledge itself and various mechanisms (human approaches, mechanistic approaches, etc).
If I understand correctly, it's distillation via having a teacher model score each of the student's tokens for a problem based on their own probabilities of generating that token at each step in the sequence. The reward/loss is then applied as RL.
The multi-teacher bit seems to imply they're distilling from multiple models. It's light on the details, but it seems like it could be part of distilling from frontier/closed models. Provided they calculate the logprobs, which OpenAI seems to allow via API but not Anthropic. Maybe they have a way of estimating the logprobs externally?
This method can be used to learn any domain from the teacher. Biology included.
Kudos to Moonshot for truly being what OpenAI should have been.
Fable-level and frontier AI should be open source and available to everyone for free.
Kudos to Moonshot for making these weights available for download. Lets not fool ourselves and claim these are "open source" by any understanding of the concept though, there are usage restrictions (even if you download them) and also training data isn't clearly broken down either, nor it it actually using a FOSS license.
They will probably never release the training data because that represents a large part of their competitive moat. The same is true of US companies (Google, OpenAI, Meta etc) none of which has released the full training data for its open models.
They use private datasets that cost a lot to acquire, synthetic datasets and a lot copyrighted material for which they don't have licensing.
What matters most is that, with the necessary hardware, I can download a near frontier model, run it and modify it however I want. The other concerns you mentioned are just noise. And if my company is generating $20 million in revenue or serving 100 million users, it can probably afford a relatively inexpensive commercial license.
Yeaaah, and this, of course, is worth it, because it leads to you being able to download a near frontier model. Don't get me wrong, long-term humanity is probably better of with science with little regards to pesky things like ethics and provenance, but we also have a tendency to not fully realize the downstream or wider effects until way too late.
And sure, there is a lot of reasons to go with keeping your software proprietary too, I'm not trying to claim otherwise, same with training data. It's just that usually we don't call proprietary software "open source" unless it is open source, regardless of the reasons someone keep it proprietary or not, could be for whatever reason really.
Not that what you've written isn't the case. However, in addition to what you've written, (or probably even before what you've written), there's the fact that everything they're training on is stolen IP. Same with US LLM labs.
Let's not kid ourselve's about where the training data is coming from. They are not asking artists, writers, coders, content creators, etc etc etc for permission to use their creations.
Anthropic, Moonshot et al are doing incredible things, but we shouldn't gloss over the costs. Both present and future costs are kind of enormous.
Personally I was wishing/hoping for one of the recent Gemma releases to be in the ~100B class at least, but sadly Google is keeping that all for themselves.
https://thinkingmachines.ai/news/introducing-inkling/
Deeply fun "care about improving people's lives" quote on your user page :p
End-to-end tokens/sec and cost on realistic coding agent trajectories, including tool outputs and retries, not isolated decode benchmarks.
Cache hit rates and prefill cost for branching, multi-turn sessions.
Router-load distributions after post-training, where expert collapse or specialization problems often show up.