Back to News
Advertisement
Advertisement

⚡ Community Insights

Discussion Sentiment

68% Positive

Analyzed from 1828 words in the discussion.

Trending Topics

#windows#tron#linux#more#system#different#where#world#https#japanese

Discussion (58 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

haunterabout 2 hours ago
TRON wasn’t just an OS but a whole integrated system, it was meant to be used with different parts working together. There was a whole TRON house tech demo built in Tokyo back in 1989 https://youtu.be/7jPKEyM44GU

If you want to try here is the BTRON 4.5 media, should work in modern VMs https://archive.org/details/chokanji

https://youtu.be/yYfoCe6q28A

https://social.tchncs.de/@nina_kali_nina@tech.lgbt/111885034...

RealityVoidabout 1 hour ago
Hah, I realize I actually encountered this family in the form of a T-kernel offshoot that I evaluated for some automotive safety relevant application.
eloisant4 minutes ago
One interesting thing is it's encoding system. Unlike Unicode that unified Chinese, Japanese and Korean characters, TRON had a different code points for characters that have the same root but are written differently in the different languages.

Unicode claim it's the same character and you need to use different fonts for different languages.

So TRON made it much easier to mix Japanese and Chinese, for example have a citation in Chinese in a book otherwise in Japanese.

It also had a lot more characters. Unicode dropped some of the older or rare characters, meaning some people can't write their last name with the correct character on a computer with Unicode. They have to use a similar but different character. With TRON, they could.

That said, this might be an example of why TRON didn't succeed (rather than this bullshit about the US government). They remade everything, which wasn't great for interoperability and compatibility with other systems.

ColdStreamabout 3 hours ago
I think it is like most software, especially in the OS space. The technology doesn't have to be the best, it just needs to get lucky enough to become a standard and build a moat with that.

And by the mid 80's the moats were already very deep.

Amiga couldn't over come the PC. IBM couldn't over come the moat of Windows with OS2. Intel couldn't overcome x86 with the i432 or Itanium. Luck and market forces from said luck played a huge part in determining who won.

specprocabout 3 hours ago
> The report stated that the US had concerns about Japanese government market intervention to support the TRON OS and identified two specific markets where TRON was receiving government advantage.

The US government is one hell of a moat.

childintimeabout 2 hours ago
The financial center of the world selects its winners nearby. As simple as that. Businesses outside of the US have never had much of a chance.

China does the same now, as the engineering center of the world. And they have to because the financial center is hyping them as a threat.

bulbarabout 1 hour ago
A dictatorship with the explicit goal of invading Taiwan, which is not only a close ally, but also of global geostrategic importance.

That's not "hype".

krigeabout 3 hours ago
> Amiga couldn't over come the PC.

For reasons that had nothing to do with OS. Swap Steve Jobs with Irving Gould and Apple would be dead in under a decade too.

kallebooabout 1 hour ago
Tramiel left Commodore in 1984 after battling Gould and Jobs left Apple in 1985 after battling Sculley. Apple then went on to have terrible management for over a decade, with people like Michael Spindler trying their best to run the company into the ground.

Apple only survived as long as they did since they had really fat margins on their machines so e.g. the Apple II could subsidize the Macintosh for years. Commodore's focus on low cost made it a lot more difficult for them to e.g. fund the evolution of the Amiga properly.

Aperockyabout 2 hours ago
Is it luck or bold product and marketing decision?

Being first could be luck, or it can be foresight.

tonyhart7about 2 hours ago
apparently China decision to ban US tech company and build their own counterpart is seen as Genius after 20 years
arkhabout 2 hours ago
One of the advantages of an autocracy: you don't need people's approval every 5 years so you can plan for decades. When you're right it is awesome. When you're wrong, well that's what the army is for.
SiempreViernesabout 1 hour ago
The actual reality of how China works is much more complicated than this "select from a dropdown menu" system you are implying.

For one thing it's made up of fairly autonomous provinces that all compete between each others, for another the actual strategy has been heavily relying on extensive local experimentation to find growth models that can be applied nationally.

m4rtink43 minutes ago
It also makes feedback illegal, so corruption and bad decisions get unfixed, untill both not only eat any gains but make the whole thing collapse.
thaumasiotes34 minutes ago
> One of the advantages of an autocracy: you don't need people's approval every 5 years so you can plan for decades.

This is a funny thing to say about a system known for its regular issuance of 5-year plans. They have festivals and everything.

lava_pidgeonabout 2 hours ago
That's selection bias. China was "lucky" to had the best strategy. But what about the dictatorships who stocked to the wrong strategy.

Though it is still interesting to research about Industry politics. In Europe almost all economics looked trapped into the capitalism Vs socialism trap.

tonyhart7about 2 hours ago
You can badmouth about China all you want but at least they are consistent where they stand

while US flip flopping about invading middle east (like usual) or Greenland

alansaberabout 2 hours ago
Certain fundamental technologies are national security. If you proport to be a superpower you can't have your nation be fully reliant on say the Mac OS. Same with agricultural imports, IC development, dot dot dot
corimaithabout 1 hour ago
No it's more of the US tolerating asymmetric trade. The whole point of that trade article was that Japan couldn't afford to loose the US market.
close04about 2 hours ago
> it just needs to get lucky enough to

To not compete with something from a country which sees its interests threatened and has the power to squeeze you dry.

The US intervention to apply pressure handed a weapon to an internal player, Masayoshi Son who just happened to make money selling US software. He used that weapon against his and US' competition. It's a playbook that the US used again and again when it saw its interests threatened by competition: hit the enemy hard below the belt while handing weapons to another internal player who will also hit the enemy below the belt.

Every other example you gave came from inside the US, even from the same company with multiple products. The market played the defining role there and pushed for survival of the fittest. In TRON's case "market forces" turned out to be US intervention.

shevy-javaabout 1 hour ago
> The technology doesn't have to be the best, it just needs to get lucky enough to become a standard and build a moat with that.

I don't know about that.

Top 500 supercomputers running Linux. I use both Linux and Win10, for instance (won't switch to Win11 no matter what), but whenever I have to use Windows, I wonder how this garbage could ever become so dominating in the first place. Inefficiency is very clearly a work culture at Microsoft; I notice this every time I copy data. And then wingers for Windows babble about how Microsoft does so much more behind the scenes - all of which is totally pointless. It is such an utter trash operating system, so I can not agree with "it it is ok to suck" statements. I much prefer solid engineering at all times.

jdw6435 minutes ago
But the idea that Windows is a "better OS" really seems accurate for people in the Third World. This is because Korean language support on Linux is terrible, and since all the commands are in English, it takes quite a bit of time to get used to it. Not only that, but there are so many distributions that you do not even know what to configure, and rather than doing RTFM, I just want to get my "work" done.

In that regard, I honestly think Linux is better once you master it, but realistically, Windows is much more casual and practical. You might disagree, but for people outside the Anglosphere, Windows is far more casual.

To be completely honest, the vast majority of people do not even like looking at PowerShell or terminal windows. It is familiar to programmers like us, but honestly, I do not like looking at terminal windows either. I would much rather look at an IDE. In the English speaking Linux world, you just map ASCII, but we need things like ibus or fcitx. On top of that, there have been CJK input method fragmentation and conflict issues for over 20 years. I think this gap exists because they cannot understand a situation where you have to debug an "input method config file" just because you want to type some text.

Windows is a black box platform where multilingual rendering and the Office ecosystem are perfectly integrated. Only a very small fraction of its API is exposed. However, for the vast majority of applications, that is more than enough. The idea that Linux is great applies mostly to English speaking developers or those who want to fit into that English speaking development culture, but from a pure usability standpoint, I believe Windows is better.

Linux is technically a glass box, but honestly, no one can understand every single part of it, meaning it practically functions as a cognitive black box anyway.

Furthermore, Windows supports true plug and play where hardware just works the moment you connect it. Linux does not. Debating whether Linux or Windows is technically superior is meaningless, but I absolutely do not agree with the claim that Windows is terrible. Many Americans argue that Linux is better once you learn how to use it properly, but the moment you step outside the US, Linux becomes a flawed system where nothing works as it should.

thaumasiotes33 minutes ago
> But the idea that Windows is a "better OS" really seems accurate for people in the Third World. This is because Korean language support on Linux is terrible

Who in the third world is supposed to speak Korean?

msephtonabout 2 hours ago
Great to see these screenshots. Thanks for posting! Nintendo joy cons run a version of micro TRON. And the software IntelligentPad used a lot of TRON concepts. https://blog.gingerbeardman.com/2023/05/17/intelligentpad-co...
lkirkwoodabout 1 hour ago
Youre kidding! That's a great fact. Do you have a source for that joycon part?
msephtonabout 1 hour ago
Here we go! Press release.

2017.06.22 Nintendo Switch Game Console Adopts eSOL µITRON 4.0-Compliant RTOS and exFAT File System https://www.esol.com/news/news_57.html

skeledrewabout 2 hours ago
Of course. Why would the US allow what's essentially their colony in all but name to control that much stack for a critical tech?
readthenotes1about 1 hour ago
And we can blame greed of a Japanese man for actually causing the failure
skeledrew43 minutes ago
Was it greed? Or was it a unified vision?
waterTanuki32 minutes ago
If you're referring to Masayoshi Son he's Korean by ethnicity, Japanese by nationality.
max97935 minutes ago
The TRON house demo from 1989 was genuinely ahead of its time. Hard to compete on technology when your competitor has the US trade office backing them.
PlunderBunnyabout 2 hours ago
Some of the ideas for BTRON sound (to my naive understanding) like OpenDoc. Can anyone familiar with OpenDoc comment?
ktallettabout 3 hours ago
This is a tricky one as it's similar to Amiga OS and Be OS where it's obviously so forward thinking but as other comments state that doesn't automatically lead to uptake.

Of a similar ilk, I always felt the MSX base deserved a higher usage rate in the rest of the world, PC engine as a console too. Neither really took off elsewhere.

charcircuitabout 3 hours ago
By 1989 MS-DOS was already dominant in Japan. Without being able to run DOS applications I struggle to see it actually take off. Microsoft on the other hand released Windows 95 with compatibility with DOS applications and it took off.
jdw64about 1 hour ago
Because the final consumers are ultimately Americans with purchasing power, this structure inherently makes it easy for the US to dominate the standards. As a result, it is extremely difficult for economically lower tier countries to preemptively establish new standards. Furthermore, the profits taken by those who bring American products into local regions present another issue.

In reality, under this system, those who bring back American advancements through avenues like studying abroad profit by exploiting the technological gap between the US and their home country. (Masayoshi Son from the article is no different.) And the people who go to study in the US are predominantly from upper class families. Within this structure, countries that are heavily dependent on exports to the US are particularly vulnerable.

At such a juncture, no matter how much academic curiosity drives the effort, attempting to destroy the established standard might be technically correct, but it was a politically incorrect judgment.

readthenotes1about 1 hour ago
The description at the beginning makes it sound a lot like The Analyst that shipped with smalltalk-80, a Hypertext active dictionary.

What could have been...

Advertisement
shevy-javaabout 1 hour ago
> designed at the University of Tokyo in 1984

The USA is acting very hostile and selfish. Their own mega-corporations were protected and integrated into the military apparatus; currently we see this with Facebook forcing its slaves to use spyglasses. One can also see this with the USA attacking Iran - suddenly the promise "we will protect you" has been revealed to have been a lie. It's all about selfish powerplay. I think the biggest shifts we see here is that more countries will build up a nuclear arsenal (in most cases just defensive, to increase the cost of an invasion; in particular Taiwan needs that since the USA will not do much at all once dictator Xi will invade; we also saw that with Putin starting his genocide against Ukraine. That would not happen if Ukraine would have had a nuclear arsenal).

socalgal2about 2 hours ago
Feels like clickbait to me. There were lots of OSes.

Things like GEM, OS/2, Next, BeOS, GeOS, MSX, ... they didn't succeed and I'm sure you can write some clickbait article about why with conspiratorial anecdotes.

Zeccabout 1 hour ago
The title is certainly clickbait-y. But the content is still interesting. And not sloppy.
eloisant9 minutes ago
It is, but claiming that it was "killed by the US government", and suggest it would have became the dominant OS is dubious at best.

So it's not just clickbait-y, it misleading at best if not just a lie.