HI version is available. Content is displayed in original English for accuracy.
Advertisement
Advertisement
⚡ Community Insights
Discussion Sentiment
83% Positive
Analyzed from 3744 words in the discussion.
Trending Topics
#black#singularity#space#holes#hole#point#horizon#event#more#https
Discussion (82 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews
⸻
1. I must admit to a lack of sufficient GR education to feel confident in this, but I think that one of the issues that made physicists unwilling to accept the idea of black holes when they were first postulated was that there ended up being a division by zero in the mathematics.
They don't just have the same name, they are the same thing.
A Schwarzschild black hole has both: a removable singularity at the event horizon that is just an artefact of a particular choice of coordinates and a true non-removable mathematical singularity at r=0 where curvature really does go to infinity. It also wouldn't be much of an issue in classical physics, because this singularity is always hidden from outside observers, so the mathematical weirdness there can't screw with your normal predictions in space outside the black hole. The problems start once you consider quantum mechanics, because any such singularity will break unitarity (a fancy way of saying that probabilities must add up to 1), which means your theory as a whole can no longer make predictions. This has opened a whole can of worms with a bunch of solution attempts, which are all sadly untestable for the foreseeable future.
History of the Universe : What Is Hidden In The Core Of A Neutron Star? - https://youtu.be/YoYjkNQ27T8
That video goes into it... without getting mathy at any point.
One of the bits that you're having trouble with is the compression of matter to a point. There's a theoretical type of black hole known as a kugelblitz - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kugelblitz_(astrophysics)
Rather than compressing particles, would you have difficulty with converting it to incredibly large amounts of energy that wraps space time into a singularity? If you packed enough photons into one spot, that energy would curve space time enough to form a black hole.Common sense would tell you they can't exist at all because you can't compress atoms - you have lived your entire life with atoms being entirely incompressible for the practical purpose of anything you do.
Leaning on common sense to discuss fundamental physics has been wrong since round about the start of the practice of physics.
If Susskind's book does in fact say that, it's extremely disappointing to me, because, as a number of other GR textbooks will tell you (e.g., Misner, Thorne & Wheeler and Wald, the two great classic GR textbooks), the "switch places" is an artifact of a particular choice of coordinates (Schwarzschild coordinates), and does not represent anything physical. So it's not something that should be relied on. (Not to mention the confusion it causes when pop science sources repeat the statement and then draw all manner of wrong conclusions from it.)
The part about being "a surface in time" might be all right, assuming that by that he means "a surface representing a moment in time, not a place in space"--in more technical language, a spacelike surface. That is correct, and it's an invariant that does not depend on any choice of coordinates. But that invariant fact can be described without having to talk about the "switch places" thing at all.
If you really want to get a picture of what is happening, you can look at Eddington-Finkelstein coordinates. In particular at a light cone field diagram around a collapsing shell of matter that turns into a black hole. Then this whole stuff suddenly makes sense without even going into the math. You don't just see how an event horizon can form out of nothing, you also see how gravity starts to bend your causal forward light cone (i.e. all points in spacetime with events that you could interact with in the future) inward in such a way that you will necessarily always fall closer to the center of the mass once you pass a certain line (aka the event horizon).
Roger Penrose (the same guy who also came up with some of the most confusing diagrams) published a beautiful, simple overview of all this in Scientific American: https://www.wkbpic.com/wkbx/SA/1972/1972-05-01.pdf (starting on page 38)
(If anyone has the book, it is chapter 6 section "Interchange of Space and Time Dimensions at the Horizon" and the following section points out the singularity is a time (and you can't escape it (in a Schwartzschild model at least) just like you can't escape time). I'm sorry if my wording is still incorrect.).
I have trouble really conceptualizing black hole physics, I just think of it as a mass so great that nothing, including light, can escape its gravity. Works for me.
The singularity in a rotating black hole is entirely different but the interior of classical Kerr (rotating) black holes is one of the most controversial if inconsequential topics in theoretical physics because there are reasons to believe (without real proof mind you) the Kerr solution is unstable inside the inner event horizon so that whatever happens in there is not what that theory says.
And of course black holes are quantum objects which might actually have an “interior” entirely different from the classical picture.
Everywhere else in the universe with mass and energy you can do what you want (sort of). An event horizon throws a hard shroud over that and drastically reduces opportunities: your free will to use mass and energy is significantly curtailed (you must head towards the singularity).
I'm sorry but this is blowing my mind. What???
Really what it means is that past the event horizon you can use the direction in space between you and the singularity as a way to measure time, specifically the amount of time left before you reach the singularity. It's not so mind blowing when you interpret it that way now is it? You can imagine many things in ordinary life that you use to measure time without claiming that time has literally swapped places with it. On a road trip, the number of kilometres to your exit tells you how long you have left, that's using space as a proxy for time... big deal. The notable difference between a road trip and a black hole is that on a road trip you could stop for a break, you could maybe take a detour, you could decide to go back home... and these would all break your use of space as a proxy for measuring time. Well with a blackhole you can't do any of those things, there is no going back, there is no detour, the relationship between the spatial direction towards the singularity and time is fixed and causal and there's nothing you can do about it.
The phrasing used is used almost certainly to evoke some kind of voodoo mind-blowing mystery that completely disappears when you get down to the more strict formalism.
[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_2vnb_eVGE
Also read Nick Gorkavyi: The Oscillating Universe: Einsteinian Cosmology of Black Holes and Gravitational Waves
Some of the things the paper points out are not emphasized in other sources, which is probably why the authors chose to write it. But there is nothing in the paper that is in the least questionable or ill-defined; it's all standard General Relativity as applied to the Schwarzschild and Kerr black hole solutions.
https://jila.colorado.edu/~ajsh/insidebh/penrose_schw.gif
What Happens at the Event Horizon? - https://youtu.be/mht-1c4wc0Q
Escape The Kugelblitz Challenge - https://youtu.be/v3hd3AI2CAA
Mapping the Multiverse - https://youtu.be/4v9A9hQUcBQ
https://youtu.be/6akmv1bsz1M
Similar questions arise: how would you know if you were inside one? The laws of logic ("physics") seemingly don't apply, but there's no way to test them in that environment.
So it is not as though you and the Andromeda Galaxy are made out of matter that got flung out of a point explosion long ago so that now you have traveled a very long distance away from one another, it is more like "both you and the Andromeda galaxy sat still for 13.8 billion years but space expanded between you in that time, so originally you were right on top of each other along with everything else".
We can rewind the model until the entire observable universe was as small as a Planck volume, but we have abundant evidence that the universe is indefinitely larger than that so even "that time when our 98gly diameter patch of space was almost indistinguishable from a mathematical point" means little when even that "point" was still just one pinprick out of the smooth manifold of a larger universe which could have been stupidly large or infinite even that early on.
A black hole happens when there is enough gravity that space gets pulled inwards somewhere, at at least the speed of light.
Gravity falls off with distance, and the distance where space is being pulled inwards at exactly the speed of light is called the "event horizon".
It has this name because speed of light is the speed of causality: events that happen further in, are "over the horizon" for you, they cannot causally influence you.
(Very uneducated person here) I’ve always wondered if large objects caused gravity, or if maybe large objects form in the places where there is a lot of gravity. This is probably elementary, but I’ve never looked in to it. Maybe today is the day!
(Is a collisionless gas really even an "object"?)
You can get a region like that by squashing a lot of mass in a small space, like happens when a star collapses under its own gravity. So here the intuition of "high density" makes sense.
But at the center of galaxies you have the so called "supermassive black holes" which are more or less comparable in size to the solar system and yes, they have a lot of mass but they are not very dense, a pop-sci trope is comparing it's density to cotton candy or even the air we're breathing right now.
So it's a matter of how you distribute mass/energy in a given diameter, not exactly of density.
Deflate it, then stretch the balloon over a vacuum cleaner tube and put on a rubber band to keep it in place.
If you pour sand on it, you can only get a small bump of sand and then it’ll run off the sides. Reasonable, logical, normal behavior. Clearly it’s a surface — it’s holding sand, it’s pouring sand in different directions over the edge, the sand is not all compacted into a single grain.
Turn on the vacuum cleaner. Assume a balloon stretchier than the strongest vacuum cleaner in the universe. What happens? Several things, each of which are perfectly reasonable:
1) The end of the tube is still a circle, and the balloon is still attached and covering the tube, so it’s still a two-dimensional circle.
2) A single grain of sand can’t block the vacuum tube, so it clearly hasn’t collapsed to a point.
3) The covered end of the vacuum cleaner tube is still the same circle, with the same diameter, as it was before you turned on the vacuum.
4) You can pour buckets more of sand onto that stretched circle of balloon than the handful you could before.
5) If you pour enough sand onto the circle, it’ll behave just like it did before: the sand will form a small mound and then newly-poured sand will run off whichever side the sand was poured on.
6) The rubber band is going to catch some of the overflowing grains of sand and hold onto them (‘accretion’), near but just outside the circle.
Next: Consider a more powerful vacuum cleaner. How much more? Lots. The most. An atomic Dyson powered by nuclear fusion. (This is a bit unrealistic, but that’s astrophysics for you.)
How much sand can you pour onto that two-dimensional, circular, balloon surface?
Lots. The most. Some of it will spill around the edges and get caught in the accretion band, but somehow that circle, that’s still the same size and clearly still blocking the vacuum tube, can hold an entire universe of sand.
That’s how black holes work :)
ps. For those who dislike the crudity of my teaching analogy and want to pop the spherical cow balloon: Topologically, the surface covering the vacuum tube is always a circle, even if you have an infinitely-powerful vacuum cleaner. At no point — pun intended — can a vacuum cleaner apply a transformation applied that reduces the dimensionality of the surface, thus it must remain, topologically, a circle.
pps. So clearly I must choose the circle in front of me! Hahaha! Aaaahahahah!
ppps. dies
while you probably assumed or knew spinning black holes move space around them
spinning black holes also move TIME around them
* https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.ady9068
so in theory a spinning black hole that's been around for billions of years has a time drag around it in a path that is billions of years old
(no we can't navigate it because yes that would be time travel to the past and violates causality)
black holes are just so weird with every new detail even more weird
oddly more interesting to me to try to grasp neutron stars (densest objects before black holes and are still visible, our entire solar system in a neutron star would be only 10km 6.2miles across)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetar
"A magnetar's 10^10 tesla field, by contrast, has an energy density of 4.0×1025 J/m3, with an E/c2 mass density more than 10,000 times that of lead."
still trying to wrap my mind around kilonovas (colliding neutron stars)
ie. they can pop out earth-sized chunks of gold, in theory, and since they aren't black holes that would be VISIBLE, albeit also "in theory" lol
* https://www.nasa.gov/image-article/unfolding-story-of-kilono...
maybe Roman can spot one someday, that would be something
Of course if you did do that, the air itself would collapse into a black hole larger than M87*...
Not quite, I think a (theoretical) quark star would be higher density?
Talking about the inside of a black hole is indeed rather pop-misunderstood though, yes. But it's not like physicists are especially confident about the details either. Theoretical astrophysics changes a lot as time goes on and our instruments improve, and it's a rather hard field to do experiments on to get better data quicker.