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#carbon#grid#electricity#price#clean#cost#marginal#fossil#power#pricing

Discussion (14 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

maelitoabout 1 hour ago
On the long-term, the French option of just running a low-carbon grid remains the obvious solution.
HexPhantom37 minutes ago
Sure, but I don't think the two ideas are really in conflict. A low-carbon grid should absolutely be the end goal, but even a mostly clean grid has hours that are cleaner than others
jarvist4 minutes ago
These approaches always measure the wrong thing though - the average carbon cost of electricity.

What you need to know is the marginal carbon cost, which will be much less variable as almost all dispatchable generation is fossil.

So yes, you should avoiding adding load when there is a severe supply crunch and the marginal power is generated by gas peaker plants (often gas turbine based), and use power when renewable generation is otherwise being curtailed, but most of the time the grid is firmly in the middle regime with a fairly average marginal cost.

jaapzabout 2 hours ago
In my country (for people with a so called "dynamic pricing" contract) the price of electricity already drops significantly when we have a load of green energy (wind, solar). I guess this is just a side effect of not having a well-balanced grid. But still that's already kind of a CO2-based pricing - although not directly
HexPhantom35 minutes ago
This is what makes me wonder how much additional benefit an explicit carbon signal actually buys you over normal dynamic pricing
Zeebrommerabout 1 hour ago
Mostly yes, but it works the other direction as well: a fossil power station may not want to completely shut down because it expects more demand later in the day, and offer a few hours of low cost electricity to stay in the merit order.
Maxion36 minutes ago
A lot of fossil power stations cant shut down for a few hours, they have to keep themselves on.
HexPhantom39 minutes ago
The harder question is probably whether dynamic pricing changes behavior without mostly becoming a penalty for people who have less flexibility in when they use electricity
calinet610 minutes ago
Man, I am so tired of reading slop.
zeristorabout 2 hours ago
I’ve been thinking about this the CO₂ usage could be part of the price. I had toyed with having a two dimensional price, the price alongside the CO₂ usage, but I guess that way madness lies.
High-Fiveabout 3 hours ago
Hey guys, A small site that checks, every day, whether making electricity cheaper when the grid is clean would actually cut CO₂.

It reads yesterday's generation mix from ENTSO-E and the EIA, works out the carbon intensity hour by hour, and compares a normal tariff against two carbon-aware ones.

It started for Switzerland, which turned out to be a good place to start for an odd reason. Swiss electricity is already very clean — about 34 gCO₂/kWh — and yet it's one of the best grids in the set at 2.4%, because it imports from dirtier neighbours and its carbon intensity swings through the day. Louisville, at 741 g/kWh, gets 0.01%: it burns coal at the same rate around the clock, so there's no cleaner hour to move into.

Across 38 grids, the correlation between the saving and how dirty a grid is comes out slightly negative. With how much it varies, it's 0.91. Being dirty doesn't help at all — being uneven is the whole thing.

Fair warning: the demand response is a model rather than measured behaviour, and it uses average carbon intensity, not marginal. Happy to hear your thoughts.

Maxion34 minutes ago
Proportional decrease is not as useful in a climate change sense than actual decrease in co2 emissions. A grid that is highly sustainable with lots of wind and solar, but fossil peaker plants will have a lot more potential co2 savings in this model. It essentially makes dirty grids look cleaner.
addag40 minutes ago
Is it assumed that the total consumption remains the same (i.e there is an increase in consumption in clean energy when there is a decrease in less clean ones)?

Otherwise, there would be an obvious solution which is to increase the price all the time to reduce demand and thus reduce CO2 consumption, but it is impractical politically.

floodle19 minutes ago
How are you modelling how demand changes in response to price changes?