The Car That Watches You Back: The Advertising Infrastructure of Modern Cars

ccadito about 6 hours ago 46 commentsRead Article on nobodyaskedforthis.lol

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Discussion (46 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

jmward01•about 3 hours ago

This one issue, privacy, has stopped me from buying a new car. It is stopping me from even buying a used one since it is hard to figure out how far back you need to go to be rid of these things. Screaming at the wind though isn't helping. We need actual real options. I will buy something that it privacy aware. This is YC. Someone, build the startup that sells that and you have my money.

hdgvhicv•6 minutes ago

> This is YC

The home of the advertising and data broker industry.

michaelt•about 2 hours ago

Motorbikes are available without any of this tech, if you want something made this year without the need to remove any components.

Sure, there's an elevated risk of death, but you've got to balance that against the fact bike go vroom vroom.

trinix912•15 minutes ago

Maybe if you live in an area with a warm and dry climate. Otherwise you're out of luck half the year unless you want to risk it daily on icy or wet roads.

lionkor•43 minutes ago

I swear there is a psyop to get me to buy a very fast motorcycle, like, me specifically.

I do want one, and I'm not going to get one! I have self control. Don't look at my Ebay notifications.

arkadiyt•about 2 hours ago

I bought a 2024 RAV4 Hybrid and

1) physically removed the modem (the "DCM") and

2) disconnected the GPS antenna from the head unit

Took a little research but was still an approachable project

lynx97•18 minutes ago

Given that some countries already move on legislation for government remote control of cars, I wonder how long this method will be actually legal.

duskdozer•about 2 hours ago

What still functions and what broke?

arkadiyt•about 2 hours ago

When I removed the DCM the in-car microphone stopped working, but I bought one of these to get it working again: https://www.autoharnesshouse.com/store/AHH-DCM77.

Also even with no modem, if you use CarPlay on your phone _via Bluetooth_ then the car will just use your phone's internet connection, so I only use CarPlay via a wired USB connection.

Aside from that the car works great, everything is 100% functional. I suppose I don't get OTA updates, which I'm fine with.

2III7•about 2 hours ago

Still driving my 2014 Golf mk7. No ads, physical buttons, adaptive cruise, frontal collision avoidance, great reliability. Not planning an upgrade any time soon.

kakacik•1 minute ago

2014 BMW 5 series F11, still nothing just good dumb assistants (like laser HUD so I never ever get speeding tickets) and bad dumb ones which can be turned off (keeping lane doesn't work at all in any construction zone and interfering with driving is a big nono).

The way they are set up together makes driving much more pleasant (heck its BMW so perfect balance and great handling at curves) and much less tiring for long haul (do from time to time 1500km 16h single day push). Was worried about automatic transmission but in their implementation its a joy and a beast in Sports mode, again less mental burden.

I really, really don't want anything more in the car, until we have 100% FSD where I can sleep or watch movies. There is no space between those, not for me.

CalRobert•about 3 hours ago

Slate maybe?

jmward01•about 2 hours ago

So far I have seen slate position itself as stripped down, but the thing I haven't seen is that they will be privacy aware. These are two totally different things. I want a simple but functional vehicle which does mean a comfortable vehicle that has reasonable features, but the honest truth is most features I don't want are purely because I want to be privacy aware. I don't want built in maps because I know they will connect and sell my location. I don't want and 'on-star' like feature because I know (for a fact with on-star) they will sell my data to insurance companies (actual harm to me will happen in other words). I don't want anything connectable to an app because I know that means their servers are constantly in control of my vehicle. I have 0 trust so I want a vehicle with one critical feature: no sim. If you can build a car without a sim I will buy it. If it has a sim I will avoid it until I have no actual other choice.

eks391•about 1 hour ago

What you described sounds to me like slate. It doesn't have maps or a sim. It doesn't even have a digital dashboard at all[0].

I barely looked it up so I'm no expert, but that's what I'm interpreting from their site.

[0] https://www.slate.auto/en/faq

roarcher•about 2 hours ago

I can't speak for other makes/models/years with certainty, but my 2024 Ford Maverick has a "Telemetry Control Unit" that is easily accessible through a hatch by the front passenger seat. Unplugging it disables all communication with Ford servers and I can confirm the app no longer works.

The infotainment center also has no built-in maps as it relies on Android Auto/Apple CarPlay for everything except climate control and the AM/FM radio.

everyone•about 2 hours ago

Solution: Get a modern car but simply build a Faraday cage around it, like those anti-drone "cope cages" you see on Russian tanks.

nerdsniper•28 minutes ago

I believe faraday cages need to be grounded. I'm not sure what the resistivity of rolling rubber tires are.

genewitch•about 1 hour ago

cope cages look like hardware fence (like chicken wire but welded, pig fence, sheep fence, goat fence are closer.)

However, the US already put fencing around fighting vehicles, specifically the Bradley, where the fence was essentially "chain link fencing".

I'm not entirely sure i buy that the cope cage stops drones; but the chain link fence absolutely stops RPGs from exploding by severing the wire that runs on the outside from the tip to the explosive.

krige•28 minutes ago

Original cope cages were a very misguided attempt to copy the functionality of the actual working fence-like defensive measures. Except in those cases they did next to nothing, which is why they were dubbed cope cages.

AFAICT the concept was improved since then but I haven't been following the tech tree of cobbled-together defensive measures used in that war in a good while.

Lio•about 1 hour ago

It would be a great idea for a website to sell the latest versions of cars, used or new, that didn’t feature enshitification tech.

Maybe it’s not a huge market but I bet there is some market still for a quality experience.

dotancohen•about 1 hour ago

That sounds like a lot of liability. For one thing, it almost certainly means that the vehicle is being sold without the manufacturers warranty. It also might mean that the manufacturern won't even support the vehicle for service. And finally, by disabling OTA updates there could be safety implications.

Lio•about 1 hour ago

Who said anything about disabling or modifying anything?

You just look for older car models that don’t snoop.

Cars made before about 2017 for example.

cadito•about 6 hours ago

The transition started with drive-by-wire and the CAN bus, but the moment they added cellular modems, the dashboard became a platform. Automakers are currently running the exact same programmatic targeting logic as web publishers and in-store retail networks. The only difference is they conveniently left out all the consent infrastructure we forced onto the web.

Tried to look at the actual ad-tech and architecture driving this rather than just doing another "touchscreens are bad" rant.

gib444•about 1 hour ago

> The only difference is they conveniently left out all the consent infrastructure we forced onto the web.

This obviously needs fixing !

The only way to do it is to force you to click "Refuse" or "Agree" each and every time you start the car and to not let you drive until you click an option.

This will be a massive win for consumers.

dzhiurgis•about 2 hours ago

Cybercab has electric brakes.

incoren3•about 3 hours ago

The newest car I own is 14 years old, and the next one I buy will have a carburetor.

And you better believe I will ride around on a fucking HORSE before I put up with ads on my dashboard. Screw that noise.

lionkor•41 minutes ago

E-Bike, motorcycle, older cars, and once all of those aren't an option anymore, we're going to start stripping cars down.

iugtmkbdfil834•20 minutes ago

Dunno man. I am inclined to do it and maybe even able to, but I will admit that there is some hesitation in messing too hard with internals of a rather expensive toy. Part of me is really hoping custom EV kits come here faster so that I can finally have proper EV vette in 90s body.

mmooss•about 4 hours ago

What are the options for cars that don't track you? For example, new cars that don't include tracking, cars old enough to not have it, cars that can be modified (e.g., parts disconnected, software updated) to stop it, etc.

culi•about 4 hours ago

Great question. It feels like there's no real options here except buying older cars. Mozilla did a review and every brand they looked at flunked

https://www.mozillafoundation.org/en/blog/privacy-nightmare-...

The "least creepy" were Renault and Dacia and the "most creepy" were Nissan and Buick.

Apparently there's tools like Privacy4Cars that could help you delete your car. Based on their website, it seems their primary customer is enterprise

https://privacy4cars.com/

charcircuit•about 4 hours ago

This Mozilla report is low quality and treats legal boilerplate as proof of them spying. It says a car is snooping on you via its microphone even if that microphone is purely used for support Bluetooth calls.

Lio•about 1 hour ago

Then as a minimum the report should act to encourage car manufacturers to use less boilerplate and be more specific in their terms.

This “we reserve the right to do everything” bullshit has got to go.

ehnto•about 3 hours ago

It's easy for me to say because I don't mind old cars, but you really don't have to go that old to find something without ad-tech or tracking. You can have a completely acceptable experience in say a 2015 Toyota Camry or Crown or whatever equivalent you get in your country, with lane assist and excellent safety, but no phoning home.

The answer really depends on how much you don't want to be tracked, is it a big concern worth a lot of effort and compromise, or do you just kinda wish it wasn't happening?

If the former, there are plenty of vehicles to choose from the relatively recent past. I haven't looked into it but I imagine a lot of cars could have their phoning home disabled too, and it'd be surprising if all of these cars will be paying for an internet connection/SIM for decades to come so eventually the modern ones will fall off the net anyway.

layoric•about 4 hours ago

A 90s Camry, Corolla, or Civic seems to have become the peak minimalist car. Shame we will never likely see an EV equivalent focused on utility and cost efficiency without all the bloat. I don’t think there is a good option sadly, any ICE car will eventually just become unmaintainable, and I can’t see a path to EVs that are just cars and don’t come with all this tracking.. hope to be proved wrong..

manyatoms•about 4 hours ago

https://slate.auto

wiml•about 4 hours ago

I'm pretty curious what Slate's telematics/privacy story will be like. No way to tell until they start shipping, I guess. It's pretty cheap to add a cell modem, so I don't think it's safe to assume that a "bare bones" car necessarily won't have spyware.

ItsBob•about 3 hours ago

In the UK, any car that used a 3G modem is fine now: we have no 3G networks here any more.

GJim•26 minutes ago

Ummmm

Unlike the Americans, we have the GDPR. No UK/EU car is tracking you or gathering personal data from you without opt-in consent, which you can choose not to give.

(And before somebody starts ranting, the eCall 112 system doesn't track you willy nilly)

unethical_ban•about 3 hours ago

The one with a fuse on the modem circuit, no?

teh_infallible•about 4 hours ago

I’m hoping the new Slate electric cars don’t have this.

everyone•about 3 hours ago

I guess just stick to cars from mid 2000's and older.

There is another issue with newer cars too, They have extremely loose piston rings, after X thousand miles they burn as much oil as a 2 stroke.

https://youtu.be/Ft12aZffCEg?si=uYlRABoqweTOKaoi

dmitrygr•about 3 hours ago

replacing the antenna with a 50-ohm resistor works very well. The car thinks it is out of cell reception and continues to work. No manufacturer would dare have their cars stop working merely due to it being in Montana (indistinguishable from having no cell antenna/reception).

VladVladikoff•about 5 hours ago

Awful writing. Cant stand that LLM generated drivel. Ruins it for me.

On the topic however I do wish there was a fully disconnected modern car. Maybe a Corolla with base trim has no starlink?

helterskelter•about 5 hours ago

I know you can yank the modem out of a SuperDuty. Say what you will about them, they're work-oriented despite the luxury packages available and don't force you into being treated like the product -- Ford will track your location if you don't pull the modem, but at least it isn't necessary for the ICU and it doesn't nag you about the anything being disconnected. Fuel prices and gas economy are another issue...

(You may be able to do this with other Ford models)

helterskelter•about 3 hours ago

Sorry, I meant ECU not ICU.

sandworm101•about 4 hours ago

Motorcycles are the last refuge of vehicle privacy. No (japanese) sportbike manufacturer would dare track customer activity. They really do not want to know how thier customers use thier products.

kQq9oHeAz6wLLS•about 4 hours ago

Plausible deniability

downrightmike•about 5 hours ago

$60k min, 80+month loans, Insurance++, and you are still the product. So much for the freedom of the open road.

CalRobert•about 3 hours ago

I do love my electric cargo bike…

youniverse•about 2 hours ago

At least Tesla is doing something right with direct sales and no suffering through a dealership just adding on cost.

dackdel•about 4 hours ago

a fully disconnected car that does not report back to its mother ship. does. not. exist. only other option is to buy a car old enough that does not have it. also if you didn't bring this up most north americans would be blissfully unaware, as long as the car has a good cup holder.

defrost•about 3 hours ago

'course it does .. any custom build shop will leave such things out on request, a great many don't even add in remote networking to begin with.

eg: https://www.okaaustralia.com/

tardedmeme•about 3 hours ago

that's illegal in the EU, the car is mandated to be able to call 112 automatically, therefore it must have a cellphone in it

crote•about 2 hours ago

This can be a completely independent unit. In fact, with all the safety-related certifications I bet that's even the easiest and cheapest way to do it!

duskdozer•about 2 hours ago

This is the one feature I'd actually like to have. It's a shame the adnet has to abuse everything.

hollow-moe•about 2 hours ago

I swear I didn't know the antennae of the tracker ~~safety~~ device was wrapped in aluminum all this time!

gambiting•about 3 hours ago

Custom builds are exempt from this requirement.

fiatpandas•about 4 hours ago

An interesting late stage capitalism ad hack I’ve seen in cars : OTA digital radio transmits track metadata like artist, title, and album artwork. I’ve seen some stations transmit tiny square ads in place of album artwork, even while the song is playing.