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#ram#memory#apple#chips#mini#more#still#don#import#mac

Discussion (51 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

quaddoggyabout 3 hours ago
Anecdata: Ordered my Mac mini M4 Pro (48GB) on April 1. Was told it wouldn't be available until June 4 but it just came in yesterday—a full month early. So I think there is an "underpromise; overdeliver" thing happening with current orders. Will be curious to see what happens with the Mini M5 release this year.
JKCalhoun8 minutes ago
Put in an order for 64GM Mac Mini late March. I'm feeling luck now having pulled the trigger when I did.
storusabout 2 hours ago
It seems like M3U 512GB RAM was a unicorn we won't ever see again :( Many skipped buying it with the hopes of a 768GB-1TB M5U but it looks increasingly unlikely.
jdboyd18 minutes ago
Maybe for the M6 or M7 generation that might happen?
gyomuabout 3 hours ago
The Mac Mini and Studio are due for an update in the coming months, a part of this is also probably that they’d rather save memory to build up their next gen model inventory rather than current gen ones?
jshierabout 2 hours ago
Like trvz said, they use different memory. M3 Ultra uses LPDDR5X 6400 MT/s, M4 Max uses LPDDR5X 8533 MT/s, while all the M5 models use LPDDR5X 9600 MT/s.
cpuguy83about 2 hours ago
Does it free up fab space to make the newer ram?
trvzabout 3 hours ago
No, the memory is different enough.
icwtyjjabout 2 hours ago
A lot of discussion surrounding the ram shortage seems to imply that it will recover, but AI companies slurping up ram for training hasn't gone down and probably won't ever. Is there any signs that the situation is improving or is this just the new normal?
thoughtpeddler34 minutes ago
From what I understand, the RAM shortage is more about AI inference than AI training. Yes, training created much of the early HBM crunch because frontier-model training clusters need tons of HBM near GPUs, but inference is what is keeping the pressure on now and into the future.
librasteveabout 2 hours ago
RAM has always been a boom/bust cycle - a square wave with the period about the time it takes to bring a new state of the art fab online (3 years ish)
NooneAtAll3about 1 hour ago
boom-bust cycle historically used to apply only to latest generation (f.e. DDR5 now), but current crisis affects previous gen DDR4 as well (and a bit of DDR3 too)

It feels much more like cartel behaviour, where all the players recognized blame can be redirected to "Ai demand" and "Sam Altman secret deal"

bilegeekabout 2 hours ago
I hope it won't be this bad forever, but RAM companies are currently slow-walking any booms (not fast-tracking new fabs, etc.) in hopes of avoiding a bust. Seems it'll be more of a slow decay to still-inflated pricing.
piskovabout 1 hour ago
Chinese fabs will alleviate some of the pressure
comrade1234about 2 hours ago
These don't have normal ram, right? The ram is part of the die of the processor? So... what's going on? They're keeping the chips for themselves? They're moving production to other lower memory configurations? But why? That's where demand is? Probably more demand at higher memory though?

I'd buy one or two but I can't stick them in a Colo because they don't have LOM or dual power supplies but I've been seriously thinking about buying one and just keeping it at home and having my Colo servers talking to it for local deepseek.

Not a high priority though considering how cheap deepseek is.

cayleyhabout 1 hour ago
The ram is "unified" meaning it's a single shared between CPU and GPU, and it's "on package", meaning the RAM chips are packaged together with the CPU / GPU die, but it's just regular old RAM chips.

You can clearly see this in the shot of the Mini mobo: CPU/GPU ASIC with 2 separate ram chips packaged next to them: https://cdn.wccftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/11/Mac-mini...

tkcrannyabout 2 hours ago
It’s still dedicated ram on a separate chip, which is affected by supply shortages.

The ram is soldered onto the SoC in close proximity to the main arm chip. What’s different is that it is simultaneously addressable by cpu and gpu cores, not part of the same die as the apple silicon unit.

nicoburnsabout 2 hours ago
> But why?

So they don't have to stop producing machines entirely because they've run out of RAM chips. The problem they have is with supply not demand.

comrade1234about 2 hours ago
They don't use ram chips?
nicoburnsabout 2 hours ago
They do. They just solder them onto their SOCs (as part of the manufacturing process of the SOC). But they can't do that if they haven't got any.
piskovabout 2 hours ago
It is still ram, not some magic thing

Still LPDDR

raszabout 1 hour ago
Its normal POP (package on package) ram. Apple marketing somehow managed to convince public its magic special HMB.
wat10000about 2 hours ago
Same package, but separate die. It’s still competing with all the other RAM buyers.
ProfessorLaytonabout 3 hours ago
The base mac mini I got has been one of the best tech purchases I've ever made, and of course as soon as I wanted another [loaded] machine for more serious work this happens.

It's absolutely wild that Apple's desktop machines now cap out at less ram than their portables which can't sustain an intensive workload without throttling!

mannyvabout 2 hours ago
The listings on eBay are also super tight. If you can find a Mini/Studio it's priced at a premium.
shell0xabout 2 hours ago
I bought a Mac Studio with 128gb RAM and M4 Max a year ago for local LLMs. 96gb memory doesn’t seem to be sufficient?
leptonsabout 2 hours ago
What? 640K should be enough for anyone!
jmclnxabout 3 hours ago
People may not remember, it is ~1980 all over again. There was a massive 'chip' shortage back then were the mini-computer company I was at and many others could not get chips they needed.

In fact, chips were kept under lock and key to prevent theft. But there was a massive theft there were 20,000 chips were stolen.

raszabout 1 hour ago
It was so bad Sun Microsystems of all places was buying smuggled Japanese ram from Jack Tramiel

https://forums.atariage.com/topic/207245-secret-atari-dram-r...

    May 15, 1989

    FBI SA and US Customs Agents advised Assistant US Attorney that source information and investigation had determined that Atari Corporation was importing 256K DRAMS into the US in false packing containers, and without proper import documents in violation of US import laws and contrary to import agreements between the US and the Japanese Ministry of Industry and Trade. Atari purchases large quantities of DRAMS from Japanese manufacturers for use in their Taiwanese manufacturing plants. Purchasing in Taiwan allows Atari to obtain the DRAMS at a greatly reduced price. There are strict import quotes on the DRAMS, because of Japanese flooding of the market in years previously but there are no import duties. By shipping the DRAMS in the U.S., Atari can thereby increase the price by approximately four times their purchase price. The original manufacturers, whether Fujitsu or Mitsubishi would not be allowed to import this quantity at this price into the U.S., because this practice stifles U.S. manufacturers.

    Investigation determined that Atari was importing large quantities, 150,000 or more a wekk into the U.S. since May,1988. None were declared through U.S. Customs, and it appears telexes and telephones were used to order specific quantities in furtherance of this scheme.

    Based on the above, Assistant US Attorney stated he would consider prosecution of this matter under the Wire Fraud Statutes or 1001 Falsification of Import Documents.

    SOURCE: FBI Case 87A-SF-40454, Pages 42-43
cyberaxabout 2 hours ago
In early/mid 90-s, it was common for thieves to steal RAM sticks from computers in school/university labs.
sgtabout 3 hours ago
Apple should just start making their own RAM and not rely so much on the suppliers like Hynix etc
mft_about 2 hours ago
Apple certainty has the financial resources to support other companies in e.g. developing specific innovations or building infrastructure (and has done so in the past) as long as there's an RoI for Apple.

It would surely be a smart move to support the right partner in quickly starting a new memory factory, precisely to Apple's specifications, in return for a long-term supply agreement? If Apple could secure their memory supply and at a lower cost than all of the their PC and phone competition, it would be hugely beneficial for them.

tracker1about 3 hours ago
Memory designs are pretty entrenched with the various patents involved... I've said a few times that I don't know why Intel hasn't gotten back into DRAM production with their fabs. I suspect they may be contractually limited when they sold off their memory businesses.
coldteaabout 3 hours ago
>Memory designs are pretty entrenched with the various patents involved...

Can't be any more entrenched than CPUs, GPUs, and broadband chips, which Apple still designs.

larkostabout 2 hours ago
Design is not the problem. Having foundry space to manufacture is the bottleneck. It is just all being sucked up (with AI needs being the big additional load).

And to be clear, the foundry space for CPUs/GPUs is not the same as for RAM, which is printed with much larger feature size in order to lower the costs.

absolute8606about 2 hours ago
For CPUs, they are still licensing ARMs cores, of course with their own modifications, and they bought Intel’s modem businesses, which likely gave them the patents they needed. GPUs I can’t speak to on this though.
cosmoticabout 2 hours ago
Apple doesn't make their own CPUs, they just design them (using ARM IP). It's TSMC that makes them. The bottleneck with RAM is the manufacturing side.
selectodudeabout 2 hours ago
They don’t use ARM IP. They have an architecture license. They basically created aarch64.
HerbManicabout 3 hours ago
Alas RAM is basically a commodity product, unless they could have some design advantage over others like the A and M series chips, there is little incentive to go into RAM.

If Apple had the manufacturing capabilities then sure, but they would still be running into the same resource constraints for inputs that everyone else is having nowadays.

At the moment, there are no solutions only responses.

caycepabout 2 hours ago
They could justify it as a capacity investment, like buying all the tooling for their aluminum laptop bodies.
JumpCrisscrossabout 2 hours ago
Unless Apple comes up with a novel memory, which I wouldn’t put beyond Cupertino, it makes more sense to participate in economies of scale.
kletonabout 2 hours ago
Apple normally just does prepayment for capacity- funding the capital for the production line they need
estimator7292about 3 hours ago
It would take 5-10 years to design and verify a RAM design that comes anywhere close to the performance of modern day memory. Plus millions in NRE.
coldteaabout 3 hours ago
Why, is the idea that they would be starting from scratch, inventing it from first principles?
superb_devabout 3 hours ago
I would guess patents. If you don’t get the rights for an for an existing design, you need to build your own from the ground up