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#trust#more#crime#term#cheating#students#system#short#becomes#signals

Discussion (26 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

jdw64about 3 hours ago
Personally, what I feel is that the lower trust becomes, the more people cling to reputation signals.

I once had to make a transaction on the dark web, and that market has extremely little trust. Because of that, people there obsess over reputation signals: what someone is known for, what history they have, who has dealt with them before, and whether their name carries any weight.

As trust markets collapse, people increasingly prefer those who already have established reputations.

This article is basically arguing that capitalism destroys trust. I agree with part of that, but I do not think the problem is capitalism itself as much as institutions and structures that force short-term rewards. Those structures consume trust as a public good.

You can see this in TikTok. Why do antisocial challenges become popular there? Because people can gain attention in the short term, and that short-term attention becomes a kind of reputation signal. The incentive structure itself rewards the behavior.

The problem is that as social trust continues to deteriorate, it becomes harder and harder for new entrants to enter a market.

I have not used Upwork enough recently to judge it well, but in Korean freelance platforms, entry used to be relatively easier. However, as vibe coding became popular and trust deteriorated, clients started demanding far more references and proof of prior work.

FloorEggabout 2 hours ago
This is interesting because there is a cheating epidemic going on in higher education and I'm continuously wondering what happens if it isn't resolved. Students cheating with impunity breeds more students cheating, into a spiral until all students cheat and the credentials becomes meaningless.

The credentials enable trust at scale.

You're pointing at people leaning on reputations for trust. What happens when the most reputable institutional credentials no longer represent the quality they once did?

Just one more unsettling thing to think about

afpxabout 2 hours ago
Also high schools. demographics of Thomas Jefferson High School (one of the best in the country) vs. Fairfax county.

I spent decades foolishly believing people didn’t cheat because I grew up around a bunch of Christians. Now, cheating is pervasive. Game theory in action

two_handfulsabout 2 hours ago
> I spent decades foolishly believing people didn’t cheat because I grew up around a bunch of Christians.

I will just say this: "Christians" is not a wholly uniform population.

threatofrainabout 1 hour ago
The more people lose trust in your work history and other credentials, the more metaphorical leetcode becomes relevant.
mc32about 2 hours ago
Interesting. When I was at university there were a few foreign contingents known for cheating academically. It was unexpected and strange ...yet, despite that, some of the students were smart yet cheated in areas they were weak in. But also didn't seem to mind sharing assignments in any area among themselves. I guess they assumed they'd learn much of what they needed in the real-world on the job.

It's sad to learn this attitude has begun to permeate our own students. People want to take short-cuts and skip the work necessary to get to the goal and miss out on the learning aspect. Maybe they expect "A.I" to do the thinking for them --but then what will they have to offer a prospective emplyer?

jdw64about 2 hours ago
Our society does not reward honesty enough. So in some sense, this outcome may have been partly inevitable.

I do not think cheating in higher education can be explained simply as “students are bad now.” I dropped out of a master’s program myself. It was not an elite universit, just a regional university in Korea, but even there I often felt strange pressures.

From the outside, academia seems to contain many signals that are not always obviously necessary. I do not mean that peer review itself is unnecessary. The problem is that the actual quality of a paper often seems less important than the journal in which it was published. Some journals are treated as legitimate, others as suspicious, and some publication records are recognized while others are treated almost as if they do not exist.

Then a natural question arises.

Do those journals really have verification mechanisms strong enough to justify the trust placed in them?

If a journal functions as a quality assurance institution, then its authority can be justified to some extent. But in many cases, the system seems to rely heavily on individual morality, reviewer goodwill, the conscience of advisors, and the self-restraint of researchers. The system says, “You can trust this because it was published in this journal,” but it often does not seem to pay enough of the verification cost required to support that trust.

This creates a problem. People who gained reputation through those journal signals often react to criticism of the signal system as if it were an attack on scholarship itself. For them, the authority of the journal is not merely a verification mechanism. It is also the basis of their own career and status. So even when the signal becomes polluted, there is a force that defends the existing signal instead of repairing it.

In that structure, cheating naturally gains power.

If the system rewards compressed signals such as publication counts, journal ranking, citation counts, school names, and recommendation letters more strongly than real understanding, honest failure, and slow learning, then people will look for the shortest path to those signals. That is a predictable result.

What happens next is not a fairer meritocracy. Instead, we get more verification, more references, more networks, and more demands for prior proof. When a shared credential collapses, the market does not become more open. It becomes more closed. People who already have reputations, elite schools, or strong networks survive, while new entrants are asked to prove more and more.

So I do not want to see cheating in higher education only as a matter of individual student morality. Of course individuals have responsibility. But if the system rewards signal acquisition more than honest learning, and if the institutions issuing those signals do not take enough responsibility for verification, cheating will continue to grow.

To me, as a programmer, expecting honesty in a structure that does not reward honesty looks like failed design.

In that sense, I also think we should strongly criticize recent behavior where people attach words like “open” to their projects and sell the trust of open source in order to promote their startups. But if I think about it from another angle, it also feels like a desperate final move to win inside the game of our society.

In our society, morality is assigned far too little value.

WalterBrightabout 2 hours ago
I attended Caltech in the 70s when it had an honor system. An anecdote on how it worked:

A fellow student of mine, "Bob", was taking Ama95, a required class that was one of the hardest classes. All exams were take home, open book, open note, but with a time limit of 2 hours. There was no proctoring, and nobody would know if one took extra time or not.

Bob took the exam to his dorm room, closed the door, and set the timer at 2 hours. He had been up late studying, and fell asleep. The timer woke him. He figured he'd been asleep for an hour. So he drew a line in his blue book, and continued taking the test for another hour. He then wrote an explanation of the line and what had happened, and turned it in.

He received an F. The professor was very apologetic, but explained that he had no choice.

Bob received the news with equanimity, and signed up to take the class again next year. He related this story in a matter of fact manner to a group of us in the dorm library.

The thing about the honor system is it turned the students and professors into collaborators rather than adversaries. The students liked the honor system very much. If their best friend cheated, they'd turn him in. Hence, any attempt at organized cheating meant ostracism. I never saw any of that in my time there.

Nobody stole anything in the dorm that I was aware of.

For contrast, I attended a class at a local college. One of the other students befriended me, and it turned out he did that to convince me to help him cheat. (I declined.) A friend of mine attended another university, and the day he moved into his freshman dorm room it was looted.

WalterBrightabout 2 hours ago
> This article is basically arguing that capitalism destroys trust.

Failure of law enforcement is what destroys trust. Not freedom.

As Rudy Giuliani showed as mayor of NYC, when the police aggressively dealt with petty crime, NYC blossomed. Crime plummeted. People felt safe.

tehwebguyabout 2 hours ago
Yeah the unpunished petty crime is the reason, not the entire economy and every politician existing solely to scam everyone.
WalterBrightabout 2 hours ago
We don't punish politicians who run scams, and the result is predictable.
mc32about 1 hour ago
The thing is that petty crime affects the man and woman on the street and it infects lots of others too who figure out, whelp, I guess this is how it works/ A politician embezzling is bad but you don't experience it directly --but for your tax dollars not doing what they are supposed to be doing.

People can put up with a sleazy politician but they can't live comfortably knowing they can't trust their neighbors or trust the police to fight crime for them when the police know DAs will reduce charges, drop charges, etc. Like why bother putting in hard work where you're putting your wellbeing in the balance just so that criminals go unpunished... eventually you end up with a "Caracas" & wild-west experience.

jdw64about 2 hours ago
I have not lived in “the city,” meaning New York, so I cannot speak from direct experience.

I agree that trust is not maintained by moral sentiment alone. But the United States is already a society with relatively harsh punishment, and yet it still has a high crime rate.

So I do not think law enforcement is the whole explanation.

xethosabout 1 hour ago
That's because having to pay the large fine does not deter crime, and bumping the price does not have a major affect. Increasing the odds of getting caught is much more effective. [0] shows states this outright in the abstract

[0] https://www.economicstrategygroup.org/wp-content/uploads/202...

WalterBrightabout 2 hours ago
Crime rates in NYC move in inverse proportion to enforcement.

When the National Guard was deployed in Washington DC, the crime rate plummeted.

Crime rates soared in cities that decriminalized shoplifting.

mc32about 2 hours ago
There are many faults with the Japanese justice system --but letting petty crime go doesn't tend to be one of them. I'm glad there are places on earth where they still believe in a structured society where actions have predictable consequences.
surgical_fireabout 1 hour ago
> but I do not think the problem is capitalism itself as much as institutions and structures that force short-term rewards.

Capitalism, at least its currently flavor, seems to increasingly favor short term rewards.

Nothing is planned and built for the long term. Companies have no interest in selling you a product that lasts forever. Planned obsolescence and things built to fail are commonplace. In fact they would rather not sell you products, but that you rent them instead.

Governments operate on short term election cycles. Corporations operate in quarterly reports. If something makes sense for the long term but is bad on the short term, it is scraped.

rdevillaabout 2 hours ago
Language is the basis of trust. This is the core idea of the Babel myth.

It is impossible to trust people when they have no respect for your language. "War is peace; freedom is slavery; men are women."

It's not "catastrophic layoffs," it's "building for the future."

"We are past the event horizon" after a trillion dollars [0] - oh but actually AGI is a "pointless term," we don't even know what that means [1].

There is an "ongoing genocide of MMIWG2SLGBTQQIA+," [2] while in Britain there have been more homicides committed by transgenders than there are transgender victims [3].

All whites are racist - because although mainstream definitions of racism center around prejudice, Whiteness scholars define racism as cultural structures, actions, and beliefs that perpetuate an imbalance of resources between whites and people of color [4].

If you're going to tell me something and then change the definitions of the words you just used post-hoc, or just outright state the complete opposite of reality, why would I ever "take you at your word?"

[0] https://blog.samaltman.com/the-gentle-singularity

[1] https://www.cnbc.com/2025/08/11/sam-altman-says-agi-is-a-poi...

[2] https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/gazan-mmiwg2slgbtqqia-pushb...

[3] https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=6182901

[4] DiAngelo 2011

readthenotes1about 2 hours ago
1. The late stage of capitalism must have started back in Roman times, caveat emptor.

2. Most societies are low trust societies, with certain exceptions usually based on draconian law enforcement.

I don't trust a lot of thought was put into this article

paleotropeabout 2 hours ago
I don't even think the examples provided are even what most people would call "trust" scenarios. In most of these examples we should have never ever assumed any trust on the other party in the first place.