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#housing#more#rent#landlords#house#money#prices#market#don#price

Discussion (392 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

WarmWashabout 3 hours ago
The problem is absolutley that housing is too expensive, which of course a bunch of realtors are not going to point out.

Increasing wages will not fix the housing crisis, and will just drive prices higher. How convenient for a bunch of realtors...

throwaway041207about 2 hours ago
In my neck of the woods (New England), home prices have doubled since March of 2020. I have yet to read a comprehensive overview of how this happened and how we get out of it. Of course, people went nuts offering over the asking price when interest rates were super low so I understand, to some degree, that baselines were reset.

But the current housing market doesn't feel sustainable. I don't understand how a proper middle class family could afford to buy in this environment, unless they are willing to put off any savings indefinitely.

tmaly27 minutes ago
If you look at the amount of money created since Covid, this explains a lot of this increase in asset prices.

But beyond that, interest rates are a big driver of what people can afford for a monthly mortgage. These rates may come down a little. However, the FED facility that was creating sub 3% rates was likely a once in a lifetime opportunity.

amazingamazingabout 2 hours ago
It is very simple. Housing is not built.
pc86about 2 hours ago
This is at least 80% of the problem. The system is behaving exactly as you'd expect it to with even an Econ 102-level understanding. New supply isn't being built, or is being severely hamstrung, and more people want the supply and are willing to sacrifice (often too much) to get it. Add in rent-seeking behavior, both figuratively and literally, and prices quickly double in even mediocre areas with minimal long-term prospects for growth.

Relaxed zoning requirements for SFH and MFH buildings, relaxed or eliminated height restrictions for high rise density projects in urban areas, eliminating rent control, and a laundry list of other things would help alleviate the upward pressure.

JeremyNTabout 1 hour ago
You can sprawl further out and you can build infill in sparsely populated areas, but you run up against the reality that desirable areas are going to be expensive because they're desirable, and the cost of demolishing existing multifamily homes to increase density further becomes infeasible in already dense areas.

I bet you actually can find affordable housing in the middle of nowhere / towns where people are actually leaving.

This is not to say there isn't low hanging fruit that market rate housing can help with, and some areas have more room for improvement that way than others, but there's a limit to where that takes you that reveals a deeper problem: we treat housing as an asset that "should" continue to appreciate indefinitely, and we even subsidize people using extensive leveraging to acquire it.

stephen_gabout 2 hours ago
Not that simple. In Australia over the last 10 years, the number of dwellings increased by 19% while the population increased by a smaller 16% [1]. Yet house prices still doubled. This is the same trend that has continued for decades, growth in number of dwellings has tended to outstrip population growth but house prices shot up since 2001 when the tax settings were changed to massively benefit speculation.

We also have a pretty high number of unoccupied dwellings that are left empty, since some investors see the bother of renting them out as not worth the money, since they’ll make so much when they sell that it doesn’t matter!

1. https://australiainstitute.org.au/post/is-population-growth-...

wmwraggabout 2 hours ago
I think there is another element, private equity (PE) has got involved in the housing market, and like anything that PE gets involved with it burns it to the ground and then exits with it's profit leaving behind a wasteland. PE equity will do anything to get their profit no matter who it hurts
TFNAabout 2 hours ago
The price of homes has drastically gone up even in some communities around the world where no housing is being built because there is no demand for it; the given region is experiencing severe depopulation as everyone leaves for the faraway big city, except for a few elderly holdouts. Yet owners feel some kind of pressure to keep their asking prices high. To me, that means the situation is far from simple.
throwaway041207about 2 hours ago
This reductionism doesn't seem useful. The population of people who want to buy homes has not grown in any way that is proportional to the cost of a home.
lifestyleguruabout 2 hours ago
Every amount of new housing will be purchased by competitive investors. You are heavily underestimating the amount of money unsophisticated investors have, and the psychological effect of owning more and more of territory. Most people will never say no to owning more money and territory.
9x39about 2 hours ago
Middle class families can, but young families just don't now. Median homebuyer age is now 56, up from 31 decades ago:

https://x.com/heimbergecon/status/1943925791055917417

As for how it all happened, I don't have a comprehensive exploration of this to share, but look at interest rates and house sale prices:

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MORTGAGE30US

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MSPUS

Sale prices begin rising immediately once interest rates dipped to the lowest ever (borrowers could "afford" more principal - sale price - for similar monthly payments).

Combine that with houses making up a significant chunk of balance sheets for the US, and we (collectively) are loathe to let prices fall:

https://eyeonhousing.org/2024/02/homeownership-is-key-to-hou...

_DeadFred_about 1 hour ago
HN, we seem to care about this. We post a lot about it. Maybe we should put together a site to consolidate this sort of information, work on articulating something insightful about what is going on, and then a system/group/accountability(this is important) for pushing this to our politicians. My grandfather used to do that and the US was improving. My dad did nothing other than vote. I've done nothing other than vote. The US stopped improving. It's easy to setup a ghost website and do nothing though, so we would need a way to hold each other accountable, broken out simple to follow actions to take. Basically a 10 step program but with the steps being political action we hold each other accountable to take.
vovaviliabout 2 hours ago
>I have yet to read a comprehensive overview of how this happened and how we get out of it

Allow me to introduce you to Bryan Caplan - https://www.amazon.com/dp/1952223415

greenie_beansabout 2 hours ago
i would love to hear a YIMBY consider the market forces/how capitalism works and not just reduce it to regulation. aka when it costs over $500k to build a single apartment unit and most of those costs are construction with very little of the regulation burden driving up that cost.
anthonypasqabout 2 hours ago
covid was the largest money printing and wealth transfer event in history. When rich people get money they buy assets. We have had extreme asset inflation since then. Metals, equities, real estate etc. Watch Gary's Economics on youtube.

We get out of it by building more, read Abundance by Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson.

Its extremely simple.

jader201about 2 hours ago
Of all the jobs to get replaced by AI, I would be happy to see realtors to be first in line (but I also think this is wishful thinking).

I feel like I get very little value out of what seems to be a mostly fixed/required price.

I know flat fee realtors exist, and if/when we sell our home, I’ll be looking into this heavily.

But I feel like they rank up there with car salespeople/dealers.

zugiabout 2 hours ago
I used a discount buyer's agent and it worked great! We viewed houses on the internet ourselves, went to open houses ourselves, and arranged showings with seller's agents ourselves. Once we had it narrowed down to two houses, we brought our buyer's agent to look at both houses, offer suggestions, and do all the bidding and purchase paperwork.

The realtor cartel still enforced a 6% commission, with half to the seller's agent and half to the buyer's agent. Our contract with the buyer's agent refunded half of his commission to us. So basically we got a 1.5% home discount. Our buyer's agent still made 1.5% but didn't have to babysit us while traipsing through dozens of potential homes, so it feels like everyone wins.

pc86about 2 hours ago
Yeah even our best realtor, who I actually liked and thought he did a good job (see other comment here) spent probably 1/3 of his total time on our purchase just hanging out or also walking around an open house. Such a waste IMO.
sdenton4about 2 hours ago
Here's a recent nytimes article in a quote positive experience using ai in place of a realtor:

https://www.nytimes.com/2026/05/28/technology/sell-house-wit...

runakoabout 2 hours ago
> All three bidders waived inspection and appraisal, and they all had healthy financing

> I was transacting in a thriving market, with no special circumstances

Yeah, a hot real estate market is where a seller is likely to derive the least benefit. Although a talented agent in a hot market can drive a more competitive process, potentially generating higher offers. All of which is, to the author's credit, highlighted in the article.

Agents earn their keep in more normal/weak markets.

ridgeguyabout 1 hour ago
YMMV. When we sold in 2021, our realtor connected us with an interest-free lender who put up $76K for repairs and staging. This, and other services, made the difference between our selling for $1.8M and the $2.4M we got. Maybe we could someday get similar service from a realty AI, but in our recent experience, the humans made all the difference.
daveguyabout 2 hours ago
Realtors are experts in the market. A good realtor pays for themselves by getting you the best selling price or finding the best home for your price range. If you don't understand opportunity cost, then obviously it appears to be a ripoff. But once you understand, it's clear that realtors have value. And realtors are probably going to be the last to be replaced with AI. It's all about value judgement and AI is garbage at judgement.

Also, it's true this article isn't recognizing the root cause, overpriced housing, because realtors in general do better when prices are high. But "realtors in general" is a very different category than "your realtor".

thepryzabout 2 hours ago
I would disagree. Theres enough information readily available to be able to see what relative home values are, where the good school districts are, etc.

The only reason I’ve ever used a realtor is because I don’t have the time to deal with the contract/legal side of everything. Most would be better served by hiring an attorney and title company if your state allows.

supertropeabout 2 hours ago
Realtors are indeed market experts (not product experts). Commission pay incentivizes them to close deals quickly, not to maximize sale price. Yes they can educate first time buyers that they cannot simultaneously get the best location, condition of the house, and price. Good realtors will ask their customer which two (or sometimes one) are their real priority and realistically match them to available listings. If you're moving into an area they can provide some local information although they legally cannot comment on schools or crime. If you've done this before, realtors mainly just serve as gatekeepers to a cartel and literally unlock houses for you to view.
triceratopsabout 1 hour ago
But there is an adverse selection problem. Some realtors are experts in the market. Buyers or sellers have few ways to identify them accurately. Most of those ways amount to they themselves having good knowledge of the market.

It's the same problem as picking active fund managers.

richwaterabout 2 hours ago
The decade of zirp between like 2013 and 2021 created a lot of shitty realtors because anyone with a pulse could sell or buy a house with ease. The true value of realtors is in bad economic conditions where serious work is needed to market and negotiate.
pj_mukhabout 2 hours ago
Yea,

"We currently have 10 houses renting at $2500 for 15 people who have $2000 to spend on rent. WHAT IF, we gave those 15 people $2500 instead. Housing crisis solved?"

-This article...basically.

vladimirralevabout 2 hours ago
Yes, might as well just give those $2500 to the landlords directly and skip the middle-man. It reads like a joke.
flerchinabout 2 hours ago
Build baby build. It's the only way.
raybbabout 1 hour ago
Vicious cycle. There was a story yesterday about a couple's rent going up 70% after they told the landlord they were having a baby around the same time the lease was up for renewal.

https://sfstandard.com/2026/06/17/san-francisco-marina-landl...

mlhpdxabout 2 hours ago
Supply and demand, supply and demand. It’s not that complicated.

I’m not sure how or why this article got published by an organization that should, given its very nature, understand economics. The article doesn’t paint them or their members as people I’d trust in either side of a major financial transaction.

pibaker4 minutes ago
> given its very nature, understand economics

I'd say being a realtor is more about dealing with the psychology of buyers and sellers than the economy. And yes, you are wise to not trust them. Their interests are not yours.

And as the saying goes, it's difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on him not understanding it. I bet most realtors would prefer housing prices to stay high and the average home owner to stay rich. They are not here to solve the housing problem. They are a part of the problem.

pc86about 2 hours ago
To the extent that an organization can understand anything, this one understands economics just enough to argue for policies that will get its members more money, and argue against policies that won't. Real estate is the quintessential stay-at-home-mom backup job so it's no surprise by and large they are not known for having a nuanced and academic understanding of economic theory.

They want wages to go up so that home prices go up even more, and their members make even more money for doing basically nothing most of the time.

mlhpdxabout 2 hours ago
> it's no surprise by and large they are not known for having a nuanced and academic understanding of economic theory

The folks I’ve worked with have been as dedicated to their career path as anyone, and while their expertise and skill varies that isn’t different than any job. I understand your point, but your (mis?)characterization hits me as a little biased and shallow.

It’s not “theory”; it’s literally what they do.

botanriceabout 2 hours ago
have you met a realtor?

They can be some great people but as a profession they are known more for their extroversion and soft skills than their high IQ understanding of economics lol

debo_about 2 hours ago
It also depends on how hot the housing market is at any given time. Often time a realtor is just someone who decided everything else was too much work. (My whole family has been in the business for almost 70 years, both commercial and residential.)
mlhpdxabout 2 hours ago
Yes, many.

The realtors I’ve met understand economics and markets very well. Not as academics but as practitioners.

shlantabout 2 hours ago
> Increasing wages will not fix the housing crisis, and will just drive prices higher.

This is true though?

pc86about 2 hours ago
Did you mean "isn't"? The tone of your comment sounds like you mean to disagree with the quoted point.
shlantabout 2 hours ago
No I am mostly agreeing with the quoted point
tancopabout 1 hour ago
increasing wages will fix part of the inequality crisis because as you go up from working class to billionaires you get less income from wages and more from capital gains. if you raise wages that changes the distribution to be more equal and thats a good thing. but i agree it wont solve housing by itself.

for housing we need to replace zoning rules with a neighbor vote, put the community back in control instead of bureaucrats who block new apartments for dumb reasons or take bribes from developers to build luxury investment properties nobody wants. there should also probably be an escape hatch where anyone can build affordable/rent controlled apts without a vote but only if the location has high enough average rent. that would help balance out inequalities and break up exclusive rich neighborhoods, maybe even help against racism.

the other side is lower costs with less paperwork (removing zoning makes a big difference) and enforcing competition in the home building industry. make it easier to start a new business and break up corporate monopolies. create a safe path for undocumented immigrants to legalize themselves so they can have labor rights, make legal immigration cheaper and more predictable.

sys_64738about 2 hours ago
Is it the case that housing was previously just very cheap and this is the normal price?
pc86about 2 hours ago
What's your definition of normal? 300 years ago you'd just set up on a chunk of land and build your own house. I'm not saying that's preferable to today but the actual financial cost was comparatively extremely little.

I bet there is a middle ground where we could relax or eliminate a lot of building restrictions and NIMBY policies to ease the upward pressure or even exert some downward pressure on home prices. We're also fighting against 6-7% interest rates after an extensive period of 2-3%.

groundzeros2015about 3 hours ago
Realtors don’t own the houses.
jasodeabout 2 hours ago
The gp you replied to mentioned "realtors" because this thread's article domain is: realtor.com
phantom784about 3 hours ago
Realtors earn commissions as a % of the price a house sells for.
adityamwaghabout 2 hours ago
It’s also a diabolical amount. My friend bought a house in San Jose, and both, the buyers and sellers agent got $50,000 each on a $2M house. They didn’t even help with the house search much.
nathan_comptonabout 3 hours ago
Merch has to move for them to earn a percentage. If prices are systematically too high I would guess liquidity goes down.
twicloabout 3 hours ago
The get a percentage cut of the sale price of a house.
HumblyTossedabout 3 hours ago
Not usually. But homeowners don't usually set the price themselves. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, technically they can. But a _realtor_ is in their ear telling them MORE MORE MORE.
triceratopsabout 2 hours ago
Actually realtors egg on buyers to offer more more more. And sellers to reduce asking prices. Whatever makes the sale happen quicker.
SoftTalkerabout 2 hours ago
A good realtor should help the seller set a realistic price. Because if the house doesn't appraise for the selling price or more, the deal will fall apart before closing.
mlhpdxabout 2 hours ago
of course they are. what else could they possibly do? pressure you into selling for a little less? get sued for not getting the seller the best price?

also, they don’t get paid if something doesn’t sell for being overpriced.

it’s a market system.

TrackerFFabout 2 hours ago
Don't live in the US, but we're facing similar problems here in Norway. One main driver is that there's not being built enough new housing. It's a combination of building being too expensive, higher interest rates, etc.

So the second-hand/used market is red hot. Renting has become so expensive, that many landlords have exited - so we're likely heading into a really bad crunch in the near future for the renters. I've read about people spending 50%-60% of their net pay on rent alone.

win311fwgabout 2 hours ago
> One main driver is that there's not being built enough new housing.

I recently entertained the idea of building a new house. Not terribly surprising, but worth mentioning that the time and materials to put up the structure was going cost even more than buying a used house. If nobody can afford to buy a less expensive used house then naturally nobody is going to build the much more expensive new house either.

Therein lies the bottleneck.

WarmWashabout 2 hours ago
For builders, they will buy a block of land and build many houses on it. The unit cost of a home drops dramatically when you are building 50 of them at once.

The real killer for them is interest rates, as they finance the whole thing and then can pay it off when all the homes are sold. High rates make the finances much more challenging to work.

win311fwgabout 2 hours ago
For what it is worth, said home entertained was a manufactured home, so it is already pushing economies of scale. I'd hate to see a quote for a custom home. We have not truly figured out how to make housing scale very well, though. Even our most efficient methods are very primitive as compared to virtually all other manufacturing we do. Solve that problem and the price of all homes will plummet.
epistasisabout 2 hours ago
New things do tend to cost more than old things, that's pretty much always the case!

Where I live, people are blocking the construction of new apartments because the cost of the new ones is a bit higher, 10%-50%, than the average existing apartment.

The idea behind blocking the new apartments is that "new expensive apartments don't help anybody" and people get very upset that the new housing is going to the type of person that can afford to pay slightly more for the newer apartment. Rather they would prefer that new housing is only built if it's cheaper than existing housing.

So when housing does get blocked, the existing landlords demand the higher new rents that those wealthier people pay, driving up the overall costs on old apartments. The poorer people get displaced, the wealthier people have housing but worse housing, and the only people who are better off are the landlords of the older apartments.

win311fwgabout 2 hours ago
> the type of person that can afford to pay slightly more for the newer apartment.

Relying on that is the root problem. I could technically afford the new house, but in the end I couldn't find a good reason to tie up that much capital for something that does the same thing as what I've already got, only shinier. If the price were more reasonable then I'd make the move and then someone else could move into my much cheaper used house. But, as things sit, I occupy the cheap house instead, leaving the next guy out in the cold. Trouble is that just because I can afford it doesn't mean I am willing to be a buyer. The price still has to make sense.

I am not alone in this. It has been well reported that people are now staying in their "starter homes" instead of upgrading like past generations used to.

selectodudeabout 2 hours ago
You gotta look at the motivations. Rich people and activists can both agree that affordable housing requirements are a good thing. The higher the better. This makes the project not pencil out so everybody is happy - the homeowners who don’t want new neighbors and the activists who think that everything is gentrification. The only people who get screwed are the only people who don’t have a vote, the non-residents. Which is why zoning policy and approvals cannot be locally controlled.
stefanfiskabout 2 hours ago
I’ve been thinking about this quite a bit lately.

I live in an apartment in Stockholm but I also own an old forest cabin. It’s perfectly legal for me to live in said cabin permanently, but it would be strictly illegal for me to build a new house to the same simple standard. The building codes are basically making it illegal to be poor.

Similar patterns exist for student housing. The old style of student corridors with small rooms are no longer being built. Instead we are basically getting full apartments with individual huge bathrooms because the building codes mandate that everything is wheelchair accessible even when it’s practically temporary housing and they could get by with making 1/10 apartments accessible.

And that’s not even getting into how NIMBYism is enabled by laws that basically guarantee stagnation anywhere housing is in demand.

Shit’s fucked.

dlubarovabout 1 hour ago
A lot of the stricter codes have very real safety benefits though - modern electrical is much safer, fire sprinklers add significant cost but really do help contain fires, etc.

(Not that it's all good, e.g. I don't like Washington's WAC 51-11R which just seems way overcomplicated.)

Ekarosabout 2 hours ago
And then when you end up with actually accessible version of those it is different again. Which I had for a few years as student. No under sink cabinets. Even more massive bathroom. The bathroom was nearly the size of those small bedrooms.
hypendevabout 2 hours ago
Similar problems here in Croatia, few reasons for it:

- Boom of AirBNB's and apartment rentals with tourism, with real low tax rates

- Limited liability abuse - company opens up, sells 30 apartments in a new building, build out the building, don't get any permits, just close the company down and open a new one. Legally, they are untouchable, and getting the permits is now on the apartment owners. Multiple friends live in such buildings, and maintenance is a PITA, trying to legalize it is a PITA, getting water/power is a matter of making shady deals with the neighbours, basically even living in it is technically illegal but not much they can do.

- Large influx of illegal money into the housing market (we have no law to investigate source of income), so money could be laundered easily.

- "Legalization procedures" where if you built a house before a certain year, or just started construction, it could be legalised. This caused people to build "fake roofs" and then claim it as a real building later on.

- Recently, immigration joined too - workers from non-EU countries are now allowed to get work visa's, and a lot of landlords are renting out a small 50m2 apartment to 10 people at the same time for ridiculous prices. The poor workers have to share bedroom with 10 other people, which is a terrible living condition, causing accidents like a whole floor collapsing due to 50+ people living in the building. While it's not legal, inspections are rare and the grey market is thriving.

- And my favorite - as a large number of apartments are bought as investments and uninhabited - around 22% in the capital, according to official estimates, with about 500k free total, in a country of 3.5 million people - the government got a great idea:

They will free up more housing, by offering the landlords of the empty apartments to rent thenm out with government guarantees. This means the government will pay them out 60% of the future rent money immediately, so the landlord can buy another apartment as an investment immediately using that money, and just get richer.

Now, we're in an interesting situation:

- Prices have risen quite a lot, like 3x over the last 5-6 years

- Existing landlords will get funding from the government to buy more apartments

- Meanwhile, new loan rules came out, prevent people from getting a loan that is more than 45% of their salary (after subtracting the costs, including your current RENT). 10% of the value has to be provided immediately by the buyer, and after loan payment and living expenses, you need to have at least 900 euros remaining each month from your salary.

In a country with a median salary of 1300 euros, with median rent being about 500-700 euros, this puts a lot of people in a locked position - you can't get a loan to buy, because you are renting. So from the 1300 euros of your salary, the bank subtracts 500 euros of rent as your "living expense", leaving you with 800 euros monthly total, which is under the legal limit for getting a loan, even tho once you buy the apartment you would not pay rent anymore.

So to get a 30 year loan to buy a 50m2 apartment, you need to have about double the median salary.

Now, they are talking about property taxes, which will force people barely making ends meet to sell the inherited land/houses/apartments for cheap to people that can afford it.

Arodexabout 3 hours ago
Again seeing some blaming poor immigrants for this in the very first answers.

Meanwhile, where do the money for OpenAI and the SpaceX IPO comes from? Who got hold of so much money? How did they got hold of it?

And here's the killer question: would they, and the rules and system supporting them, change in any way if there were less immigrants?

inglor_czabout 3 hours ago
No amount of money will help jurisdictions that still refuse to permit new buildings in face of a constant influx of people.

You cannot live in Musk's banking account. You have to have the actual physical structure, and current laws in hotspots like San Francisco and New York do their utmost to prevent new development.

Places like Austin, which are less restrictive, don't have this problem.

mamonsterabout 2 hours ago
>You cannot live in Musk's banking account. You have to have the actual physical structure, and current laws in hotspots like San Francisco and New York do their utmost to prevent new development.

>Places like Austin, which are less restrictive, don't have this problem.

Not really fair to compare 2 cities on the waterfront with no obvious space to build over to a city in the middle of Texas. San Francisco is even worse than New York(IMO) because of the hills.

reducesufferingabout 2 hours ago
We've had the technology to build skyscrapers for over 100 years. They're illegal in 90% of the city
greenie_beansabout 2 hours ago
housing is expensive everywhere, not just in SF and NYC. def expensive in Austin. how do the zoning laws in SF make NYC more expensive?
reducesufferingabout 2 hours ago
Housing in SF and NYC are on some level substitute goods. Many of the people living there are mobile and the ones deciding prices on the margin. If SF rent was $10k and NYC was $3k, many are going to leave SF to get a similar type of lifestyle in NYC for cheaper, raising demand for NYC housing. If SF zoning laws allowed building an incredible amount of housing, lowering rents to $2k, while NYC is at $4k, many people would leave NYC, lower housing demand and thus rents, to get a similar urban lifestyle in SF.

This is the whole crux of why NIMBY is such a collective problem. When NYC doesn't build because SF should, when SF doesn't build because the Bay Area should, when the Bay Area shouldn't build because Texas should, everyone collectively pays higher prices because overall housing supply is reduced and many people move between them.

Arodexabout 2 hours ago
But even if/when the law finally allows more building, you will have to compete with a richer, and richer, and richer upper-upper-upper class - both people and firms - who will price you out.
ecshaferabout 2 hours ago
The rich only buy so many homes.

Its close to a pigeon hole problem. If there are 10 houses and 11 people, the homes are going to go up in price until the 11th is homeless (or moving away to somewhere cheaper). If there are 100 people, its the same issue except magnified, this is what happened in the bay area. Significantly more people than homes. But if there are 100 homes and 10 people, it doesn't matter how rich they are, the prices will drop because there is less demand. It will also be less attractive as an investment vehicle, because they will demand less rent.

cyanydeezabout 3 hours ago
it can't be those 8 guys with >50% of the wealth! no sir, it must be all those poor people taking up the poor people's space they were alotted in 1995.
groundzeros2015about 3 hours ago
What do you mean? Trillions move through the stock market every day from pensions, mutual funds, foreign governments, 401ks. And professional trading.

I’m sure many immigrants had money on the IPO as well?

Supermanchoabout 2 hours ago
The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.
groundzeros2015about 2 hours ago
Equal treatment sounds good to me. Which point are you responding to?
Arodexabout 1 hour ago
These trillions that go to SpaceX and whatnot are trillions that aren't going to building more homes, nor increasing wages. Not even as a second-order effect.
philsquared_about 1 hour ago
There is no "trillions that go into SpaceX". You and others seem to have a massive misunderstanding about how the stock market works... they could have sold 10 shares at $50 and still have a valuation in the trillions... Market cap does not mean they have that money in hand or even that it is being taken from someone else...

They literally sold less than 5% of the total shares in the ipo by the way...

gonzalohmabout 3 hours ago
Is it the wages or that shitty one bedroom apartments go for $2000+
gravypodabout 3 hours ago
In 1970 a $300/month apartment would be ~$2000/month in today dollars. I do think rents are too high as productivity and supply chains are much more efficient. I think in the 70s we were still using black pipe for gas, iron septic lines, and copper pipes for water. But, I don't think new builds or renovations are cheaper inflation adjusted (harder to estimate).

Cost of money (inflation), building, and maintenance is the floor for rents.

selfmodruntimeabout 3 hours ago
The 1970's median salary was $800 (so rent was 37%), the 2026 equivalent is $5220 or 49%.
forshaperabout 1 hour ago
Incidentally, the 1970s are when productivity kept rising, but typical worker pay stopped rising with it.
pickleglitchabout 2 hours ago
The median monthly rent for houses and apartments in the U.S. in 1970 was $108, or around $930 in today's dollars. So, in today's dollars, that would be $11,160/year. Median household income in 1970 was $9,870, or $84,714 in today's dollars.

Median rent in the us today is around $1,750, or around $21,000/year. Today's median income in the us is around $89,000. So, housing cost has nearly doubled, while wages have only risen by about 5%. And that's just housing. I'm sure the math for healthcare and education costs is even more grim.

win311fwgabout 2 hours ago
> So, housing cost has nearly doubled

That is in line with expectations:

1. The average house is ~60% larger than in 1970. More house equates to higher costs.

2. In 1970, the typical working-class man would spend time in a public house 5-6 nights a week. Today, third places are nearly nonexistent. Houses, largely driven by the internet opening it up to the world, has become more than a place to eat and sleep. Monetary spending is naturally directed to where one spends their time and energy.

treisabout 2 hours ago
What we spend on housing has doubled. That doesn't mean the cost has doubled. It means that we buy a lot more housing than we used to.

Real estate cost is local and there are parts of america where the prices have gone nuts. But there's a lot more where it hasn't and housing is affordable.

SoftTalkerabout 2 hours ago
Supply of housing has not kept pace with population since then. So you have more people chasing relatively fewer houses.

Also compare a 1960s or 1970s house to one built today. Today's houses are bigger and much more luxuriously appointed, with gourmet appliances, stone countertops, multi-head showers, walk-in closets, huge bathrooms, etc.

Once the boomer generation dies off or goes into assisted living you'll see a lot of those 1970s houses coming back on the market.

encodererabout 2 hours ago
You seem to be using family income and not household income for 1970.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEFAINUSA672N

throwforfedsabout 3 hours ago
Were apartments $300/month in the deep suburbs of cities though? Because I'm always surprised to hear my parents tell me rents for 1 bedrooms in the place I grew up in outside of Boston are in the $2-2.5k range (confirmed just now, not an affluent suburb). Census data seems to put the equivalent in Massachusetts at $120/month in 1970, which would be roughly $1k/month in 2026. $300/month in 1970 might even be high for what people were paying in Manhattan in 1970.
michaelchisariabout 3 hours ago
In 1970, median rent was $108 a month, utilities included.

https://www.nytimes.com/1973/04/08/archives/108-a-month-rent...

bantunesabout 3 hours ago
How many apartments were $300/m in 1970?
datadrivenangelabout 3 hours ago
Probably not many. The median rent reported in the census was 108.

Per state breakouts: https://www2.census.gov/programs-surveys/decennial/tables/ti...

jmclnxabout 3 hours ago
Very few, 300 USD was considered rather high in my area back then, maybe a house would be 300. That area is now in the top 5 expensive areas to rent.

In the late 80s early 90s I was paying 350 USD for a 2 bedroom.

folkravabout 3 hours ago
Could have all the best reasons in the world,
MiscCompFactsabout 3 hours ago
Listening to NPR yesterday, they mentioned it’s a renters’ market in the Sunbelt [1]. Lots of new supply here in Texas and I just signed a lease recently with 2 months free in DFW. Bringing me down to ~$1550/month. Lots of places are offering 2-3 months for free.

[1] https://www.zillow.com/rental-manager/market-trends/tx/

littlexsparkeeabout 2 hours ago
H1-B crackdown is cooling the housing market in cities like Dallas

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48399957

alphawhiskyabout 2 hours ago
$1,550 a month for what? A three bedroom, 1.5 bath duplex with a garage maybe. For a flat though? Shoot me.
bruce343434about 3 hours ago
“I have seen people technically meet the 30% rule and still feel financially strained,” shares Linda Grizely, a certified financial planner and financial wellness speaker. “The pressure isn’t the rent alone; it’s the combination of rent plus everything else in their financial life."
bee_riderabout 3 hours ago
That’s a sort of interesting question. On one hand, landlords are easy to resent, they extract a lot of income primarily by owning something rather than doing anything productive.

On the other hand, wages haven’t kept up with inflation and the super-wealthy are constantly capturing more of the value. At least in the case of small-scale landlords, maybe they are just the only lower-to-middle class people who’ve managed to defend the deal they had in the 90’s, proportionally speaking…

shlantabout 3 hours ago
Are you saying that you blame apartment prices on landlords? If you build more apartments then market rent goes down and landlords can't charge more if people can just find cheaper apartments. It's not like landlords just choose whatever price they want - it's significantly bound by the demand.
bee_riderabout 2 hours ago
Markets aren’t magic, they are the result of people pushing back and forth on each other.

What do you mean by “blame?”

I felt like my post was generally in the less-finger-pointing direction.

hgoelabout 2 hours ago
It's largely landlords causing trouble building housing where it's needed because it would limit how much they can make.
littlexsparkeeabout 2 hours ago
littlexsparkeeabout 2 hours ago
dual income expectations raising costs for everyone, plus work culture necessitating clustering in metros - everything conspires against affordability
HumblyTossedabout 2 hours ago
Can both be true?
foolfoolzabout 3 hours ago
one bedroom (and living alone) is a luxury and always has been
nulloremptyabout 3 hours ago
Not true.

Rent for one bedroom apartment was 500$ in 1998, cold / hot water included other utilities are extra.

I was making 35K back then and it was enough to afford relatively good living - car, groceries, gas, occasional meal for 2 at a restaurant.

And gas was 35cents on the Wet Coast of Canada.

raframabout 3 hours ago
$35,000 in 1998 is $72,500 in 2026, which is still a totally fine income. I know people living pretty well on that in New York City.
gravypodabout 3 hours ago
Is this true? I think SROs were very common in the US in metropolitan areas.

It was common plot point in media to: 1) kick your kids out at 18, 2) if two men lived together they were assumed to be dating.

bglusmanabout 3 hours ago
I think SRO's are very different from "One bedrooms" and even from studios? a studio or a one bedroom has a kitchen, a bathroom, and some living space... I think SRO's typically have a bed, a chair, and sometimes a desk. Bathrooms were shared, I'm not sure how kitchen/cooking space worked?
littlexsparkeeabout 3 hours ago
yep, a ton of SROs have been lost in cities like SF https://ccsroc.net/s-r-o-hotels-in-san-francisco/

also - gentrification of apartment housing stock over time raising the price floor and phasing out of public housing

MSFT_Edgingabout 3 hours ago
Many localities will have co-living restrictions for single-family homes.
cpburns2009about 3 hours ago
Apartments exist everywhere with a population over 100. Does no one rent an apartment with roommates anymore?
sethjgoreabout 3 hours ago
I would think greed is a luxury and always has been, more than a simple adobe and living alone.
apiabout 3 hours ago
Stop this race to the bottom stuff. You know what else is a luxury and always has been?

HVAC, transportation, anything beyond maybe emergency medicine, Internet access, education, drinkable tap water, …

The fact that the bulk of the US population has these things is what makes us a first world country.

antonvsabout 3 hours ago
Why not both? Wages are too low and rents are too high.

The common factor: the capital class screwing over the working class.

ajmurmannabout 3 hours ago
Look at real, median household income. It's been going up and up. The things that have gone up in relative cost are housing (because we heavily regulate building it) and premium services like healthcare and education because of Baumol.
mrweaselabout 3 hours ago
Probably also doesn't help that to many people want/need to live in the same few areas. If you could take your office job (which in most cases would work perfectly fine) and move to a less popular area, 30% might be rather high.
sethjgoreabout 3 hours ago
Does median represent the normal anymore?
apiabout 3 hours ago
Link for the curious:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol_effect

Baumol plus zoning and NIMBY driven real estate hyperinflation basically explain the modern economic malaise among especially the young.

I’ve also heard this called “in-deflation.” Inflation in everything you need, deflation in everything you make.

hombre_fatalabout 2 hours ago
People who are able to restrict housing development (e.g. existing home owners) have too much political power on a topic that shouldn’t be up for a vote.
supertropeabout 1 hour ago
Imagine if current hospitals could object to opening new hospitals. Or grocery stores could object to competitors getting permits.
shlantabout 2 hours ago
> The common factor: the capital class screwing over the working class.

This thought terminating cliche is getting real old. What are your solutions? and what evidence do you have that those solutions will solve the problems? Shaking your fists at "the elites" and regurgitating populist slop is not going to

antonvsabout 2 hours ago
It's the opposite of a thought-terminating cliche. It refers to an entire world and body of work, which include solutions.

You could start by reading Marx, who laid a lot of the groundwork.

> Shaking your fists at "the elites" and regurgitating populist slop is not going to

I like the way you trailed off halfway through your knee-jerk reaction, underscoring just how much your response is an automated result of indoctrination.

dfxm12about 2 hours ago
Yes, of course, but consider the source. Who do you think this article, about literal rent seeking behavior is representing? Certainly not the working class...
apiabout 3 hours ago
It’s that wages have not risen with inflation.
vorpalhexabout 3 hours ago
Aside from less than a quarter point (0.24) from Covid, wages have in fact risen with inflation and that small difference is also likely to disppear soon.

https://usafacts.org/answers/are-wages-keeping-up-with-infla...

It is in fact rents, especially with mandatory add-ons. The actual cost of renting a place is a lot more than the direct rent payment.

sethjgoreabout 3 hours ago
Frankly the statistics do not feel right - I remember jobs that were easily found at $15 per hour in 2012 and cost of everything was insanely low. One bedroom / 750, McDonald burger, $1, McDonald soda $1, a pack of beer $7. Now eveything is easily double or triple and the basic jobs are still at $15.
ecshaferabout 2 hours ago
I bang on this drum a lot. We need Land Value Taxes to incentivize productive use of land, and we need to eliminate (or greatly reduce the burden of) Zoning (Japan has zoning but a great model that really allows building housing efficiently). When it costs $50k in permits and takes 2 years just to put a shovel in the ground, to build a single family home, and millions to build an apartment building, of course homes are expensive.

Inefficiently taxed land, and artificial scarcity via laws, turned housing into an asset class. This problem will not go away, in any country, as long as those two things are not resolved.

whoknowsidontabout 3 hours ago
Landlords are the least productive class in society, and it's not even close in terms of ranking.
estearumabout 3 hours ago
It's worth being precise about this because it's a really important point. Most people who we call "landlords" are simultaneously a landlord and a property manager. Property management is an important and productive job. But the vast majority of such people's financial outcome is actually from being a landlord, that is doing literally nothing except holding a piece of paper granting them monopoly on a plot of land. That plot of land's value (separated from the buildings on top of it) is generated, by definition, by the community surrounding the plot.

So when you say landlords are the least productive class in society, it is that they are totally unproductive by their nature. There is literally nothing to be produced! The land is there regardless! Then the fact that they collect a tax on consumption of a good they did not create makes them a negative-productivity component.

If you remove landlords (but keep property managers, developers, etc, which are all different jobs sometimes played by the same people), it would be a strict improvement to everything about our economy.

fookerabout 2 hours ago
I'm going to assume ignorance and try to explain why landlords exist. Of course you could already understand this and have this as an ideological stance, in which case my effort is likely wasted.

Landlords assume a similar role in economy that banks do, they assume risk on your belalf. We have quantified this to an extent that you can reliably put a dollar amount on how much risk there is.

When you are renting and there is a job change or war or natural disaster or really, anything inconvenient at all, you can more or less walk away without losing much.

estearumabout 1 hour ago
Landlords do not assume risk in their role as landlords.

The land is there regardless of whether anyone "takes on the risk."

Landlords often take on risk in their role as property managers or developers. They should be rewarded more for that, and not at all for their simple ownership of land, which again: would be there regardless of whether someone else or no one at all owned it.

chadgpt3about 2 hours ago
Landlords assume artificial financial risk entirely created by landlords
smallmancontrovabout 2 hours ago
When ownership shows up at zoning meetings, the main risk they seem to be concerned about is accidentally letting someone build enough housing. Heaven forbid!
hgoelabout 2 hours ago
Those same landlords also control many of the levers that might cause their investment to be less profitable.
rootusrootusabout 3 hours ago
> If you remove landlords (but keep property managers, developers, etc

In this scenario, who owns the property? And if you are advocating that everyone should own their home, what is the point of a property manager? What about the people who do not actually want to own their home?

cpburns2009about 2 hours ago
This is exactly my problem with these arguments that demonize landlords. I've lived in multiple cities where I knew I'd only live there for a couple years, and I'm only interested in renting. How do you live somewhere short term without someone owning the rented property?
estearumabout 1 hour ago
They can be privately owned and have the land value (unearned value, by definition) simply taxed away.

Or you can have the government own the land but do long-term (99 year) leases, like they do in Singapore.

raybbabout 2 hours ago
Community land trusts, cooperatives, nonprofits, universities, local government, etc.

The problem is always financing. If you're going to own a place you need a lot of upfront capital. If you own a place and plan to maximize rent increases it's easy to leverage your new asset to buy more properties. But if you just want to keep it near cost then you need a new infusion of capital for each new property. So, by their nature such endeavors don't grow as fast as rent maximizing landlord can grow.

Aurornisabout 2 hours ago
The steelman interpretation would be that government is the only party allowed to own rental properties.

Nobody would be allowed to rent out a space they owned because it would turn them into a landlord. All of the rooms people rent out to others would go away. You wouldn’t be able to rent a private house from someone, you’d have no choice but to live in government owned housing developments.

This would be incredibly unpopular if implemented because it wouldn’t resemble the utopian fantasy it’s supposed to represent. It’s a vacuous idealism in the same category as “billionaires shouldn’t exist” that serves as a placeholder for an unspecified utopian government-run economy. The details are never specified, you’re just supposed to imagine it works and nothing is lost as a tradeoff.

Aurornisabout 3 hours ago
> If you remove landlords (but keep property managers, developers, etc, which are all different jobs sometimes played by the same people)

You need to be specific about what you mean by “remove landlords” because that’s a nonsensical statement by itself.

Some party must be responsible for the investment to produce the property. Some part must own the property.

The most charitable interpretation of what you’re trying to say would be that private rental contracts are forbidden and the government would have a monopoly on renting properties out. So only the government could own properties that are rented and the entire rental market would depend on how much housing the local government decided to build and manage.

estearumabout 1 hour ago
You tax away all the gains generated by the land value, which effectively eliminates the "landlord" component of a rental fee and directs the owner's incentives toward producing value via construction, improvements, or services instead of rent-seeking on an asset they did not create and which would continue to exist if they never set foot on it.
nathan_comptonabout 2 hours ago
Is this the most charitable interpretation?

You could, for instance, require people who own habitations to actually live in that location. You could tax people who own property they do not actually live in very aggressively until they would be willing to sell for less to avoid the tax burden. You could have a system which taxes aggressively and builds lots of houses and gives it to people who own it as long as they live there.

There are quite a lot of ideas between "government owns everything" and "let vampire landlords do unlimited rent seeking."

As it happens, I think there is quite a lot to be said for the free market solution of just letting supply meet demand more or less freely, but I think your interpretation really is not the most generous one.

arwineapabout 2 hours ago
> But the vast majority of such people's financial outcome is actually from being a landlord, that is doing literally nothing except holding a piece of paper granting them monopoly on a plot of land

This is how I know that you've never tried to run houses. If you hire out a property manager and all of your maintenance you are not making money.

I have to be an electrician, a plumber, a painter, a drywaller, an engineer, a salesman, a delivery driver, a businessman, an appliance repairman and a lawyer. And that's to make a measly 8% on my money.

> There is literally nothing to be produced! The land is there regardless!

No one rents bare land. They are renting a depreciating asset that you have to upkeep.

Yea yea yea, Henry George says that the value is provided by the citizens around your property. I call bullshit. The value is the shelter, the heat, the comfort. That's what people need.

smallmancontrovabout 2 hours ago
Shelter, heat, and comfort? No: Location, location, location.

A crack shack with a busted roof and broken utilities in a good location sells for the same price as a pristine, functional mansion in the middle of nowhere.

ligneabout 2 hours ago
"And that's to make a measly 8% on my money."

Amazing how many people insist on being landlords despite it apparently being a life of sawdust and sackcloth.

bcjdjsndonabout 2 hours ago
> If you hire out a property manager and all of your maintenance you are not making money.

Because you can't acquire attractive real estate. Who cares about a unit in Slutdrop, Idaho?

alextingleabout 2 hours ago
A landlord is doing exactly the same thing as an investor. They are tying up their capital in exchange for an income, and the possibility of a capital gain.
frankusabout 2 hours ago
The difference is that investment in a company can create “more company”, whereas investment in land can’t create more land.
mekdoonggiabout 2 hours ago
That is not a problem, but the problem is that now they are financially incentivized to screw their tenants as much as possible. With a different capital project, sure they're screwing their customers, but at least I go shop at a different store. Humans need housing, and moving is annoying and expensive.
cpburns2009about 2 hours ago
How is a property being used for housing not productive?
darioushabout 3 hours ago
I don't understand this school of thought?

Without renting everyone would have to buy a house / apartment on each move.

bcjdjsndonabout 2 hours ago
Because there's not actually enough money in America for everyone to be well off. You can either have a few silly rich people, and the rest of us constantly exchanging labour for cash until we die, or everyone is poor.
chadgpt3about 2 hours ago
without renting though it would probably be more like buying a fridge. You could just buy it when you needed it and sell it when you no longer needed it.
darioushabout 2 hours ago
With realtors taking a 10% cut on each transaction? Or do you envision a more liquid market with less paperwork? What about escrow, inspections, and handling disputes on large transactions?

BTW in the US, a big advantage of renting is not having to buy, sell, or maintain appliances like a fridge because the landlord has to deal with it.

cloverichabout 2 hours ago
...at much lower prices.
Aurornisabout 3 hours ago
The market rate and supply and demand are going to determine the price of housing whether or not you have landlords. Remove landlords from existence and the alternative is to make everyone buy homes. I guess that would drive housing prices down a little because so much of the population would be living with their parents until they save up enough for a down payment, which might not occur in their lifetime. So demand would go down, but it would not be fun for the people who wished they could rent.
kobalskyabout 2 hours ago
> I guess that would drive housing prices down a little because so much of the population would be living with their parents until they save up enough for a down payment, which might not occur in their lifetime

you mentioned supply and demand, if everyone is struggling to buy houses, downpayments wouldn't just go down a little.

in the end, everyone needs housing, every single house would be occupied just as now, but instead of having renters being squeezed by supply and demand you would have owners.

how is that a worse scenario?

let developers have rent, they are the risk takers, they deserve it.

cloverichabout 2 hours ago
demand is not number of buyers. it is amount of dollars buying. Excluding investors will disproportionately drive down prices.
newaccount670about 2 hours ago
If it's so easy to make money without doing anything as a landlord, what's stopping you from doing it and donating the profits to charity?
chadgpt3about 2 hours ago
Only the rich get richer. You have to be rich to acquire the free money rights. The poor don't get richer, or the system wouldn't work.
sethjgoreabout 3 hours ago
Absolutely. Rackteering party and bureaucracy always finds themselves returning in all society until killed or thrown over.
jermaustin1about 2 hours ago
I only partially agree with this - Access to housing for people unable to access a mortgage is very important. And the capital outlay historically required to OWN a house has been nearly impossible for the vast majority until recently. And even now, banks really hate lending to people not already "on the ladder" to use a British term.

For instance: I bought my wife's grand fathers house. It appraised for $165k, and he sold it to me for $130k, I put $50k down, and got an $80k mortgage. I earn a very decent amount around 4x the median household income. I have 22 years of employment history with 0 days "unemployed". I have maintained a DTI of less than 10% and a Credit Rating of 800+ for at least the last 15 years I've been tracking. I have more money in my brokerage than the house is worth, let alone the mortgage, and yet it still took 3 different banks, and over 13 months to close on the house. I was denied by Bank1 (who I have over 20 years of history with) and Bank2 (who owns my business accounts and holds $10s of thousands on average up to $100k regularly). Bank3 approved me, but by the time they approved me, interest rates climbed from 2.5% to 5.75%.

bcjdjsndonabout 2 hours ago
> And even now, banks really hate lending to people not already "on the ladder" to use a British term.

TBF, would you give some randomer a few hundred grand without a strong guarantee you'd get it all back?

jermaustin1about 2 hours ago
> without a strong guarantee you'd get it all back?

Mortgages are backed by the asset you are buying. $400k for a house is backed by the house. On top of that, almost every bank can sell off those mortgages and get the cash back immediately.

So, you are correct, I would not lend hundreds of thousands unsecured to a random person, but if I had the disposable capital, though, I WOULD buy a house with that money, and price in their credit rating to their interest rate, and turn around and sell it to Fannie/Freddie and recoup the principal that I lent.

Banks aren't on the hook for any of this (except for mortgages that don't conform, but most banks don't touch those, you have to go to brokers for those).

groundzeros2015about 2 hours ago
Have you ever owned property before? Maintaining property is a lot of work and locking up that much capital is a lot of risk.

I personally think it’s usually a shitty investment and a waste of my life, so I’m glad to pay someone else to use theirs.

cloverichabout 2 hours ago
I have. it is work but definitely not a lot. It's more financial stress but that evaporates as your finances go up. Some people just like the control or have the asset though. Its all around a societal drain imo.
rootusrootusabout 2 hours ago
Yeah I tend to agree, there is a good reason I am not a landlord. Too much work, too low a return on the investment.
AnimalMuppetabout 2 hours ago
Eh, I'd put thieves as worse. They have negative productivity.
2OEH8eoCRo0about 3 hours ago
Maybe. I think when times are good it seem like that (right now) but when times are tough they can be stuck owning things that lose money. There is some risk in ownership.
estearumabout 3 hours ago
You lose close to zero money owning land even in down markets. That's why there are vacant lots that cost millions of dollars in every major city. Near-zero carrying cost.

There's risk in owning housing and so we should make sure people get rewarded for that instead of rewarded for owning land.

cucumber3732842about 2 hours ago
>You lose close to zero money owning land even in down markets.

You still lose relatively though because the next person with their money in the market made some %

Land and real estate assets are generally a poor investment relative to the market without a ton of active management. There are god knows how many millions of people who own land that would be incredibly valuable if not for the civil engineering lobby getting environmental rules and laws written to their favor.

cpburns2009about 3 hours ago
I guess it's time to abolish apartment buildings then. And how dare someone want to rent a house/condo/apartment when they only expect to live in a city for a couple years.
estearumabout 3 hours ago
Landlords do not create apartment buildings. Developers do that. Developers should get more reward for developing things and landlords should get less.

Landlords do not manage properties. Property managers do that. Property managers should get more reward for managing properties and landlords should get less.

Sometimes these are the same individuals and they lump their fees into a single check, but these are not the same jobs and they should not be treated the same.

cpburns2009about 2 hours ago
How else do live in an area short term, with no desire to purchase property, without the existence of someone owning the rented property?
rootusrootusabout 2 hours ago
> Developers should get more reward

From who? Someone has to pay them to do the development, right?

smallmancontrovabout 3 hours ago
inb4 a rentier-class swoops in to "well actually" this because interest rates are up: you need to draw a box around the capital interests (current owner, previous owners, bank, bond holders) and treat them as a group counterparty to the renter if you want to understand the system. Otherwise you'll get kited by each free-money-recipient pointing to the other and saying "look over there!" Which members of the group are living it up vs under pressure at a given moment changes, but what remains constant is the gigantic flow of money that comes out of the renter and remains with the capital interests after subtracting off expenses.
estearumabout 3 hours ago
Henry George was right about everything
formerly_provenabout 3 hours ago
Always has been. You have to suck the money out of inefficient real estate to compress their margins and make it a commodity (=Georgism) or you let real estate bleed your economy dry (=what every Western country is doing today).
holistioabout 2 hours ago
Yet if I open X, I'm being told constantly that my European mind can't comprehend how poor we are and the richest European country is poorer than the poorest US state.
dgellowabout 2 hours ago
The US has an insane K-shaped economy[0]. People in the upper part of the K arm live in a completely different country than the rest of the population

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recession_shapes#K-shaped

throwawayffffasabout 2 hours ago
> Although this rule isn’t necessarily wrong, the reality is that modern budgets are much more complicated than they used to be, so you can’t take the 30% rent rule as a hard-and-fast guideline.

Modern budgets are not much more complicated. The rent is too damn high!

MemoryHoleHQabout 2 hours ago
For the ones that didn't read the article, it says there. The problem is that the state takes more and more away from the workers wages:

"The biggest flaw: It uses gross income, not take-home pay

One of the biggest issues with the 30% rent rule is that it’s based on your gross income—not the amount of money that actually lands in your bank account on payday.

To illustrate this flaw, let’s use some real-world numbers. According to the latest FRED data, the median household income in the U.S. is about $84,000 per year, or roughly $7,000 per month before taxes.

Under the 30% rule, you could theoretically spend about $2,100 per month on rent if this is your income.

But let’s take a look at what your take-home pay could be with this salary. "

chadgpt3about 2 hours ago
It may say the problem is taxes take too much money so you can't pay landlords, but how do we know the real problem isn't that landlords take too much money so you can't pay taxes? Or Comcast takes too much money so you can't pay landlords and taxes?
MemoryHoleHQabout 2 hours ago
We know it, because during the last 50 years, already adjusted to inflation the USA government budget increased by 2.48× per capita.

And unless your argument is that public services are 2.48x better now, then yes, I know that the problem is, as usual, that the government is taking workers money away to do as they please.

cm2012about 3 hours ago
Wages in america are extremely high, its just property prices are even higher.
miltonlostabout 3 hours ago
Go tell that to Oklahomans and others still making a minimum wage of $7.25 an hour
WarmWashabout 3 hours ago
If you can find a single person still getting paid that, please give me their info and I will have them making twice that by tomorrow.
Ccecilabout 2 hours ago
In my state (Idaho) they can (and do) pay less than minimum wage if you are a tipped employee. [1]

"Most" who are in those positions tend to make at least minimum wage, if not more, but that is not a guarantee, and it is harder to claim tips as "stable income" when trying to get credit/housing.

Median wage/rent is hard to apply. Totally different results if you look at what the typical renter makes (at least in my area). Minimum wage is one thing...but when it takes 3-4x minimum wage to stay at 0 every month things get difficult.

[1] https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped

anotherengabout 3 hours ago
I'm making that much as a software engineer in a 3rd world country. Hire me :)
thejazzmanabout 2 hours ago
I could probably pack a bus or several buses just with the town I live in. How many openings do you have? :P
john_strinlaiabout 2 hours ago
i can introduce you to ~50 people making about that amount. let me talk to my school and i can probably get a few hundred more.

very kind of you to offer them all a job at twice that. how do i reach out to you?

_DeadFred_about 2 hours ago
I'm making zero. I have been in IT, a developer (but out of date mostly VB and SQL), managed dev teams, managed IT departments. Unfortunately I have a record and it's hard to get someone to give me a second chance plus now I'm over 50 and too old/overqualified for the minimum wage jobs. Would love to hear your ideas.
fragmedeabout 1 hour ago
Shit, people don't even make minimum wage in states with tipped minimum. Bartenders be getting less than that, and people aren't drinking like they use to.

I'm very interested in hearing the opportunity you can give someone who's willing to work for $14.50/hr though.

TaupeRangerabout 2 hours ago
"Basketball players are extremely tall."

"Go tell that to the middle school travel team in my neighborhood."

Why are you even making this comment? The comment you responded to was obviously talking about median wages of the entire US population. Real Wages are near all-time highs - it's just a fact, you can look up the data yourself.

bcjdjsndonabout 2 hours ago
Havent you got states that haven't increased the minimum wage, just for inflation, in decades? Don't most people live in cheap wooden houses on top of all this? Isnt all your livestock full of chemicals to counteract the unsanitary factory conditions they must be processed in so the average American can even afford it in the first place? Doesnt half your country still hate blacks?

And finally, why do so many people kill themselves in America? Can't be that great. Don't know of many hunter gatherers offing themselves

Der_Einzigeabout 2 hours ago
They’re reaping what they sowed based on how their states population votes. Oklahoma is doing exactly what’s its people wanted and voted for.
estearumabout 3 hours ago
Hint: property prices are set by wage levels
shlantabout 2 hours ago
really? you think it's not significantly effected by anything else? like amount of housing available?
estearumabout 1 hour ago
Pretty much no.
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RandyRanderson14 minutes ago
Canada here: it can absolutely, definitely get worse.
raybbabout 1 hour ago
On a note about addressing housing concerns, it certainly would only help a minority of folks but what do people think about right of first refusal?

Like if a landlord wants to sell their building and someone comes along with an offer for $500k then the current tenants have an option to buy it at that price.

Certainly would be annoying for investors looking to buy quickly but potentially life changing for long term tenants about to get a new landlord.

pelagicAustralabout 3 hours ago
I think right now, the only place I can afford a house (in a place I would actually like to live in), is in some derelict, abandoned Italian town in Sicily, or something like that.
armchairhackerabout 3 hours ago
> derelict, abandoned Italian town in Sicily

That sounds like a great place to live. Good weather, quiet, Italian food & culture, safe & stable, public transit to the city…and you can work remotely.

amanaplanacanalabout 2 hours ago
if you can work remotely. And if Italy will let you immigrate. I would bet those two ifs fit a small percentage of the populace, unfortunately.
pelagicAustralabout 2 hours ago
Yeah, I was going to comment on the remote side of things... Can't manage that at the moment, so it's a no-go for me on that ground.
dfxm12about 2 hours ago
The famous cheap (€1?) houses in Sicily (and other places with similar schemes) likely do not meet most of these criteria. It's not like real estate is cheap in Giardini Naxos...
m4ck_about 2 hours ago
If companies would allow people to spread out more we could probably improve that situation some, but they want us all concentrated in 10-20 major metro areas. There's cheap housing in this country, its just in places where the job market is extremely limited.
stego-techabout 2 hours ago
I’ve been on the 50/30/20 budgeting rule for a while now, and I agree it’s a healthier perspective for an individual than a “30% gross on rent/housing” arbitrary metric. Housing is one part of a larger bill of necessities you have to pay every month because society dictates these necessities are not rights, alongside food, energy, transportation, insurance, healthcare, and communications. Laying all this out on paper then multiplying by two and accounting for taxes, helped me remain calmer in salary negotiations because I knew not what I thought I was worth, but what I actually needed to survive.

The grim reality is that over-financialization of markets combined with a lack of regulations against predatory practices (like surveillance pricing and algorithmic rent setting) added gasoline to the bonfire that was a fundamental housing shortage brought about chiefly from treating housing itself as an appreciating asset rather than the land housing sits on and taxing accordingly (don’t even get me started on residential property tax schemes popularized by the Baby Boomers and the associated gap between sale price and tax assessed values dictated by law). Growing wages won’t fix this, nor will cutting interest rates. Building more housing is the only way out, but existing homeowners don’t want their assets to decline in value, so that’s generally not happening. Rent control is becoming increasingly popular, and I think it’s a good idea to protect existing renters and force landlords to side with wanna-be homebuyers instead of homeowners by forcing revenue growth through volume creation (new housing) instead of rent hikes.

iLoveOncallabout 3 hours ago
In most European countries this 30% rule has never worked. It's always been a completely out of touch rule, and, especially for single people, rent has always easily been 50% of their net income in major European cities.
selfmodruntimeabout 3 hours ago
Not really. Rent is too high. It's not a problem unique to America. Rents in Munich, for example, have also doubled since 2012. A three-room apartment often costs between €2,200 and €2,700 per month in this city. For reference, that's close to an entire net salary for many, even for someone in the top 20% of earners in Germany, where salaries are relatively low and taxes are high. The median net income here is around €2,200 per month.

This has been a key factor in my fiancée's and my decision to move away, as it's simply unsustainable for families with children.

Gigachadabout 3 hours ago
That doesn’t really make sense with the point of the article being that someone could be spending less than 30% of their income on rent and still not have enough for their other expenses. If it was just rent being too high they would be over 30%. The suggestion here seems to be every expense is too high that even if you find the most dirt cheap sharehouse to reduce rent, you still might struggle.
e12eabout 3 hours ago
The 30% assume gross, pre tax income - not net.

Ed: obviously the 50/30/20 rule sums to 100% so would need to be net - although the US is weirdly treating health insurance as a "premium service" that go into the 50% here, not into taxes like in a modern society.

selfmodruntimeabout 3 hours ago
This rule makes little sense for a country with an almost 50% tax rate.
littlexsparkeeabout 2 hours ago
It originated in the US, not meant to apply to all contexts/countries.
_heimdallabout 3 hours ago
Both numbers matter though. Something is unaffordable only when you can compare the price and income.
StefanBatoryabout 2 hours ago
Also if you have children - I am not sure how it is for you in Germany, but in Poland landlords will not rent to anyone with children. Or ask twice as much because the assumption is if you don't have home already, you are suspicious...
lifestyleguruabout 3 hours ago
It's quite cruel how Germans still keep up appearances with applying for the apartment with elaborate portfolio, full personal and financial data, letters and so on. While the only portfolio that matters is envelope with EUR 1500 in cash, or at least was 2-3 years ago and now is probably higher. 5-8 years ago it was maybe funny but now is simply cruel.
selfmodruntimeabout 3 hours ago
I have never heard of someone paying cash to get an apartment tbh
probably_wrongabout 2 hours ago
I saw it in Berlin. In two occasions I saw the realtor be openly bribed in front of all of us, although whether he took the bribe or not I cannot say. I also saw a man bring mini muffins and a personalized letter from his wife, family picture included, but I'm not sure it counts.
lifestyleguruabout 2 hours ago
People who do don't have the time to talk with you about it:)
FrustratedMonkyabout 3 hours ago
Very Recently, wasn't there a lawsuit against apartment owners for a vast price fixing scheme based on them all using the same software package that was telling them all to raise prices at the same time.
littlexsparkeeabout 2 hours ago
lp4v4nabout 2 hours ago
At this point I honestly think this is a bit by design.

There is a crazy amount of land in the world, but either it's too expensive or you're not allowed to build over it, or a combination of both. Houses have been built for millennia but somehow in the most advanced period of humanity you're supposed to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for a roof over your head.

I think that low key the ruling class + landlords are not interested that housing be an affordable thing, so the whole system works to create artificial scarcity. How's the population going to be forced to work unpleasant and low paid jobs if not by controlling their access to housing? You have to be too naive if you think that a few minds in your country's parliament haven't thought of this.

If someday economic activity gets automated enough, and the majority of people are not needed anymore for regular jobs, and this populace gets violent with their ruling class, then I think a lot of housing will be built outside of cities, and the supply of houses will no longer be a problem.

cucumber3732842about 2 hours ago
> or you're not allowed to build over it,

And those laws were passed with the political will of who?

Now with the benefit of hindsight what causes that seemed legitimate were used to hoodwink those people?

Have those causes and their peddlers lost credibility or legitimacy?

Western society is basically slowly recreating old world landless peasantry because we have adopted bad world views or bad morals or bad ideologies (or whatever else you want to call them) that allow us to be manipulated into incrementally creating the system that produces that outcome.

Complaints about NIMBYism and "ship it overseas and forget about it environmentalism" are sniffing around the right neighborhood, but there's a more general problem here.

zer00eyzabout 2 hours ago
> There is a crazy amount of land in the world, but either it's too expensive or you're not allowed to build over it, or a combination of both.

This is true, to a degree. There is another factor and thats WHAT kind of housing we build.

> ruling class + landlords are not interested that housing be an affordable thing

Off the mark, the real people pinning housing prices where they are, are home owners. Home ownership is the leading predictor of voting, and issues that maintain or raise current home prices will drive that up. https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/insights/if-you-lived-here-you-...

Furthermore home ownership is a functionally unmovable number: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/RHORUSQ156N (that fed data is interesting and says a lot, capturing the 2008 financial crisis, bad lending hardly moved the needle in real terms).

> controlling their access to housing?

The reality is that this is a social problem.

Boomers are living longer (higher quality of life) and alone. They either took their parents in (cohabitation) or put them in homes. I know plenty of elderly people who are living in large houses, by themselves, who had their parents, at that same age living with them. You're not going to see a bunch of retirees moving in together to save on bills - The TV show "Golden Girls" would not make sense today.

On that note, cohabitation among younger generations is down. Fewer people have roommates, and lots of them "want to live alone" - sharing a house with 4 friends is much cheaper than living in a studio or one bedroom. And there are whole categories of housing, like boarding houses, that have disappeared. Again this is a cultural problem, look at the TV show "Bosom Buddies" - this is something that would be lost on a modern audience for so many reasons.

Part of the cohabitation issue is "renters rights" have gone way too far. There are plenty of people with space, who will not cohabitate because the risk, cost and pain of a renter turning into a squatter is WAY too high. The rules to protect good renters from bad landlords have only served to push out good landlords because of bad tenants.

> If someday economic activity gets automated enough... This will never happen. If you dont think were going to find new things to keep busy and if you dont think were going to find new ways to compete for "dominance" I have news for you.

nextstepabout 3 hours ago
too bad houses AREN’T for living in, but for speculating
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bcjdjsndonabout 2 hours ago
Wage slave wages not even keeping up with inflation and they all think it's houses that are the problem lol.
Herringabout 1 hour ago
Americans are very confused when it comes to societal/collective issues. We saw this during the pandemic.