RU version is available. Content is displayed in original English for accuracy.
Advertisement
Advertisement
⚡ Community Insights
Discussion Sentiment
65% Positive
Analyzed from 4481 words in the discussion.
Trending Topics
#java#value#net#language#objects#where#types#identity#object#oracle
Discussion (81 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews
> The model was powerful, but also mentally heavy
No it isn't! it is this interpretation that kills off the null-safety debate entirely. Saying you have a variable that cannot be null is not a mentally taxing distinction, especially since everything is labelled thoroughly.
> The team, faithful to the lesson “simplify the model for the user, even at the cost of the performance ceiling,” ultimately dismantled this dualism.
but it would have simplified it for the user.
The whole attitude and process around this and the other topics gives me very little faith that Java can be steered in a sensible direction here. The type system of a programming language is supposed to give convenient guarantees to the developer on a CPU that can only do numbers. There is no reason to reduce the optional(!) safety guarantees you can offer with the excuse of "too mentally taxing".
Hell, they even get there half way by recognising:
> the language model and the JVM model don’t have to overlap one hundred percent
If you have language-wars about a concept going in and out of existence, that is a hint that there is demand and the language does not properly handle the demand or when it handles it, it creates mental overload.
> Value
> Errorstates
https://fsharpforfunandprofit.com/rop/As the pythons said: Get on with it!
I agree. The stewardship of Java seems rather lacking - particularly when compared to that of .net, where MS etc. mostly seemed to make the correct decisions from the start.
Does Java even have any value or mindshare at Oracle nowadays? The company seems to be a datacentre/compute business at this point, with appendiges for its legacy activities and a vast overhang of debt.
I sometimes wonder if the only parts of Oracle that are still profitable are the Legal and Lawnmower divisions.
Now, as a member of the Java team (although I'm not directly involved in Valhalla), I'm obviously biased so let me just say that both designers and fans of programming language features would do well to remember two things:
1. Opinions about features are almost never universal, even among experts, and almost each of them is about a tradeoff where different people prefer different sides. It is rare that some scientific study settles the issue.
2. These preferences are often not evenly split. Even when both sides are equally confident that their preference is the right one, sometimes 80% or 90% of programmers share a preference.
All of the language differences between .NET and Java fall in this "non-consensus" zone, and at least in one area I was deeply involved with, virtual thread, I can say that we thought that whatever we do we mustn't do what .NET did and that what they chose didn't work out well for them at all.
In what way? If anything Java's main developers (employed by Oracle for the most part, working on the completely open source and free OpenJDK) are extremely knowledgeable and are responsible a big jump in how fast the platform evolves. They have added proper algebraic data types to the language, delivered virtual threads and garbage collectors that decouple pause times from heap size. Like if anything, Java is at the best place it has ever been.
No they haven't. E.g. they added a class that superficially looks like Option but subtly breaks the rules that Option is meant to follow, ensuring that no-one can ever manage to migrate existing codebases away from using `null`.
Part of the reason for that is that Java is older. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_Sharp_(programming_language)...:
“In interviews and technical papers, he has stated that flaws in most major programming languages (e.g. C++, Java, Delphi, and Smalltalk) drove the fundamentals of the Common Language Runtime (CLR), which, in turn, drove the design of the C# language.”
Also, some of Java’s design warts may be there because Java was initially envisioned for much smaller devices.
Second mover advantage.
Wut? I did worked on .net projects and all it achieved was making me like java a lot more then previously.
To me it felt a bit less like a religion and more like a language. It didn't force me to do things a particular way, quite as much. (Still more than I would have liked, though! After all, it's called that[0] for a reason :)
[0] https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/ddc4b0/mic...
also, null markers are coming too: https://openjdk.org/jeps/8303099
Its just that they have to deliver things incrementally. This PR that introduces value classes/objects is already 200k lines long.
I think you've missed what this is referring to. It isn't about null safety (which is orthogonal) but about having reference/value projections analogous to Integer/int.
What the Valhalla team ended up doing is, instead of having two projections for each type, one with identity and one without, value types never have identity and so Integer and int are synonymous, and the memory layout is determined automatically based on context and optimisation decisions.
> There is no reason to reduce the optional(!) safety guarantees you can offer with the excuse of "too mentally taxing".
This is not what happened here.
If Java was a child, imagine it being brought up by loving parents for the first few years (Sun) then it was thrown in a garage with some other children and neglected by its evil guardian (Oracle)
Neglected and unloved till JDK 8, its basically been playing catch up.
So when people say "oh so its now got structs or value types of X", yes it has but that's because it has been stunted in its development due to big bureaucratic and hostile corporate processes, but its free now and is getting love through the OpenJDK family.
I will continue to enjoy writing once and deploying anywhere!
Whether you like oracle or not, this is simply not a correct description of Java's history. It was brought up by loving parents, who due to financial problems had to put Java into a foster home where she was neglected.
But later it was adopted by new, loving parents (Oracle) and she bloomed and become a healthy and stable adult.
Like, it was Oracle that completed the open-sourcing of the platform, making OpenJDK the reference implementation. They also open-sourced the previously proprietary jfr, mission control etc tools.
They also managed to keep many of the original members of the language team, which is quite rare during these acquisitions, and Java has seen a huge improvement both on the language and runtime front.
Same with MySQL, btw. "Dead" according to this site, risen from the dead under Oracle for those who actually know it.
> Neglected and unloved till JDK 8, its basically been playing catch up.
These two statements are contradictory. The last Java version under Sun was in 2006. Oracle bought Sun in 2010. JDK 7 came out in 2011 and JDK 8 in 2014.
The team largely remained the same, and the main difference was that Oracle ended the neglect and funded us more, which is why Java picked up the pace after the acquisition.
> its basically been playing catch up.
Catch up with who or what? There are only two languages in the world as popular as Java or more: JS/TS, and Python. People who are saying Java is "playing catch up" usually compare it to languages that are doing far, far worse than Java. It's just that people who like certain features think that the language that has them is doing poorly despite them and not because of them. Many times I see people insist that other languages are "doing it right" (or better than Java) even though it is clear that the people who say this are in the minority when it comes to preferred features.
> So when people say "oh so its now got structs or value types of X", yes it has but that's because it has been stunted in its development due to big bureaucratic and hostile corporate processes, but its free now and is getting love through the OpenJDK family.
If anything, the opposite is the case. Managers love to see things ship quickly. It is our technical leadership - all people who were there in the Sun days - who insist we have to move deliberately and carefully and get things right. You can agree or disagree with the decisions, but comparing Java unfavourably to languages that are doing far worse is unconvincing.
Rather, what I think the vibe is because Java is not as popular as it was in, say, 2003. And it certainly isn't. But guess what? No other language is, either, because that time was anomalous not only for Java, but for the entire software ecosystem, which had never been as consolidated and unfragmented before or since.
So == for value classes will basically be like memcmp(). That is a bit unfortunate, as it breaks encapsulation, exposing implementation details. Client code can use this to do case distinctions based on how a given value is internally represented. In a way, it’s worse than identity comparison, because identity comparison at least doesn’t expose internal state.
To see why, consider that to do any useful work, data from different objects (also from different types) has to be combined. To be able to do that in the OOP framework, the encapsulation has to be unwrapped. That's why Java code is littered with getters and setters that don't do any useful work at all, they just make it too painful to get any real work done.
Again, there is a place for objects and implementation hiding, but it's at the highest levels of an architecture where different components get integrated.
It should work even for strings: They will surely continue to be heap-allocated, and memcmp-ing pointers (inside the new "structs") is exactly an identity comparison.
For example, you might have a value class for representing (limited-precision) fractions using two longs internally, for the numerator and denominator. For efficiency trade-off reasons, you don’t want to always shorten the fraction. But now client code can distinguish 2/3 from 4/6 using ==.
Scenarios of that sort are conceivable where this actually leaks sensitive information. In any case, it creates dependencies on implementation details where you don’t want to have them.
When designing a value class, you are now in the dilemma of either always having to normalize the representation, costing performance, or having your class be a funnel for leaking implementation details.
There is a lot wrong with that: complexity, bloat, and slowness.
> But now client code can distinguish 2/3 from 4/6 using ==
That's a great way to obfuscate code. Not a good idea. The right way to do the comparison is, just make a function called CompareRational().
I’ve been reading the mailing lists and watched all videos on the topic and it is truly inspiring how much they managed to consolidate the design to something that always looked like java.
But while also going far deeper in granularity and understanding what it even means to be a value type and what optimizations can be done where
Value types, generic specialization, boxing - a quick skim makes it looks like they picked the same choices.
So where in other languages, the struct/class taxonomy is binary, Java allows more granular control, reflection the semantics of the underlying domain. Snd as it turns out, structs have a wide range of footguns, especially in a parallel context.
For me, a struct in C/C# can be modified and is passed by copy while a value class can not be modified and is passed by value.
I do not think you can do stack allocation in Java.
The mutability difference is that part of a struct can be modified in place, which value classes can’t: the value of a complete value-class variable (or array slot) can only be modified (reassigned) as a whole. This is presumably because object references to value-class objects can be created, and those objects should be immutable so their identity doesn’t matter.
The other solution is to stack allocate and pass a pointer but as i said, unlike in C#, i do not think it's possible to do that in Java.
In Go, you can stack allocate but when you send a pointer (that escapes), the compiler will heap allocate the object.
But under the hood it can (and will) do a modification in place.
The false dichotomy of
> A struct in C# has identity and mutation, so the semantics of copying on assignment or passing have to be precisely defined, which gives a heavier model for the programmer and less freedom for the runtime.
Doesn't really match with what they're describing. While yes, it will not have identity in a java class ref sense, it of course will still have identity in being a unique structure in memory at a certain address. This is just splitting hairs about Java nomenclature.
No, it will not. The design allows multiple objects to share one structure in memory across multiple records, or not have such a structure at all (see Scalarization in the article).
Yes. I fear you are missing the point.
Again, not trying to turn this into a .NET vs Java thing, I'd have been much happier if they reached some new and interesting conclusions.
Well, it is - because they had to make it with almost perfect backwards compatibility for one of the most popular languages with trillions of lines of code produced over decades.
Sure, adding it to a new language is not hard. Adding it to Java which has primitives, generics and boxing, finding ways that seamlessly cover the differences between objects and primitives, while trying to plan for the future is hard.
As a general note, if you come to the conclusion that one of the best designer teams on Earth "basically copied what .NET did from year 1 is not a good look", then maybe your mental model needs adjusting on how these stuff works? Java has a public mailing list, you can browse through the related discussions. Implementation is the least of these things. But I can assure you they most definitely know what they are doing.
Oversimplifying a big semantic and backend change to a huge codebase on which some of the most crucial customer and government and business systems depend on, and which has to be made as seamless, correct, and performant as possible, to "they just copied .NET", just because .NET has the same functionality, is an even worse look.
It's a "HN "Dropbox is just rsync + some scripts"-style bad look.
Sad. Hope they can do this by the next LTS JDK.
If I have a function that has a value `x` that erases to `java.lang.Object` (e.g. a parametric function with no lower bound); then it used to be safe to check for nullity and then synchronize on the object.
This is no longer safe: This can now throw `IdentityException` into your face. (it was _never_ a good idea)
In other words, a lot of old code must be reviewed.
I suspect that `-XX:DiagnoseSyncOnValueBasedClasses=2` will need to stay (with the semantics: if user tries to synchronize on identity-less object, then log a JFR event and make it a NOP, don't throw an exception)!
The current JEP text is a little too ambiguous to figure out whether that is the plan, anyways.
If you want to change an element of such an array you need to create a new immutable struct which in practice it is quite fast, but a bit verbose to write.
> In 1995, a memory access cost roughly the same as a CPU operation
Uhm... no?!
Here's a CS paper from 1993(!) about prefetching from cache(!!) because the cache was slower than the ALU. https://www.eecs.umich.edu/techreports/cse/93/CSE-TR-152-93....
It would perhaps make Java look a little bad to say that, in 1995, the prevailing attitude in certain circles was "If it's too slow, just wait for faster hardware - Moore's Law forever baby!" (Of course, Sun was selling, at the time, relatively fast hardware - the slower the software, the faster the required hardware)
What is unclear to me is why the decision to use a Point instance as a value or as a reference is made in the class definition rather than by the caller.
> Point[] point = new Point[10];
For the same class, I might need an array of values in one place and an array of references elsewhere within the same codebase.
That seems off. They're still objects, the new thing is that they can give up identity.
> "The defining trait: no identity"
I get that this makes objects behave like primitive types. Maybe thats reason enough. But is it necessary for the performance boost and de-fluffing the objects? Seems like an orthogonal objective
> There’s a catch worth knowing about here, though: flattened data has to be readable and writable atomically (otherwise it risks “tearing” under concurrent access).
Isn't this a race condition and "undefined bahvior"..? Having to limit yourself to atomic sizes seems like a huge limitation, to accomodate what is most likely buggy code. Is all the effort only gunna help lil toy ColorRGB examples?
> The points array is a million pointers. Each pointer leads to a separate Point object lying somewhere on the heap.
Does this happen in actuality? One would assume the allocator tries to put stuff sequentially on the heap? Its not a guarantee as with these Value Types, but I'd think you could get similar-ish perf with prefetching in cache. I dunno whats happening under the hood.. But when writing Clojure apps the JVM always reserves absurd amounts of heapspace on my machine (to my annoyance). Id assume it can find some place to do contiguous allocations..
Which i guess gets me to my last question... where are the benchmarks broski? It all sounds great, but does it actually yield the insane speedups promised?
Great article, well written. But a benchmark would have been a nice "punchline"
Yes. The one part of the JVM GC that can't run concurrently is heap compaction; objects that can be moved by copying and then deleting would be a huge help for that. And it would be awkward to say the object has an identity but can't be wait/notify'd, at which point you need somewhere for the monitor to go.
> Does this happen in actuality? One would assume the allocator tries to put stuff sequentially on the heap?
Yes. Of course it tries, but semantically the pointers are just pointers and the prefetcher can guess but the system still has to chase them.
It feels like an orthogonal objective and honestly arbitrary distinction, yes.
> Isn't this a race condition and "undefined bahvior"..? Having to limit yourself to atomic sizes seems like a huge limitation, to accomodate what is most likely buggy code.
I think they meant it like the appearance of atomic behavior from a java multithreading view.
> Does this happen in actuality?
Yes, it does happen. Having guarantees on this front leads to better performance.
> But when writing Clojure apps the JVM always reserves absurd amounts of heapspace on my machine (to my annoyance)
Might be a configuration problem?
Arguably flattening mostly makes sense for these only.
And yeah, you are right that allocations happen on something called a thread local allocation buffer, which is basically just a pointer bump in cost and objects allocated one after the other should be physically close in memory for the most part (though an object's creation may require a bunch of other object's creation that would sit in-between). But these have headers, so not as dense as they could be (though due to GCs being generational, they may end up actually closer in the next gen? The in-between temporary objects wouldn't survive for the most part)
The current code will help with `Integer[]`, `Char []`, etc, as well as combinations of `byte`, `char`, and `int`. Past that it doesn't really help much.
It would be fantastic if we could also flatten something like `Pair` or `Tuple`. However, even with compressed pointers, that is 64 bits, so that, plus the `null` bit, means it can't be flattened, which is a real shame. For various reasons, I have `List<Long>` in numerous places in my code, It would be great if that could also be flattened. However, since a Long is 64 bits, it _also_ can't be flattened. https://openjdk.org/jeps/8316779 would go a long way to to helping here, since then at least the null bit could be thrown away, which would allow more things to be flattened.
And then, if you want to go Wishlist land, something that would allow SSO (Small String Optimisation) would also be awesome, but that would require something akin to unions in Java, which we can _kind_ of do with sealed classes, but, since String is a final class, can't be retrofitted back into the language.
Does anyone know if Valhalla will flatten "simple" sealed classes, where every sealed class is small enough to be flattened? Since that would also be a powerful example to share.
In the current setup will a Pair Value Type be a compiler error, or will it silently just have bad perf?
if you really want a fun drawing get a human artist to do it. it doesn't need to be complicated, for example https://www.code-cartoons.com/ is mostly just stick figures and does an excellent job
but you don't even need any of that, a mermaid diagram would have worked perfectly fine too. instead you chose to use a technology that is known to be harmful
Let's take a stroll down memory lane. First of all, .NET literally started as a Java copy. On top of it, a non-cross-platform one for almost two decades! After having shamed Linux for so long Microsoft finally started porting .NET to other platforms in a non-backward compatible way. A lot of .NET proponents will tell you porting from legacy .NET to .NET Core (which was renamed once again to .NET) would be a quick fix, but it isn't. For example, the shop I used to work in had some important cryptographic libraries which were very painful to port. And then, there's .NET's simplistic garbage collector, which can be quite annoying because it tries to be a one-fit-all solution that basically cannot be tweaked at all, often resulting in unresolvable latency problems. There’s a lot of other stuff, like its ghetto-like ecosystem and the insane fragmentation of GUI libraries.
I also don't get the C# praise. Over the years, it has become quite the bloated language. It feels like Microsoft tries to implement every feature possible without realizing that an enterprise language is supposed to be streamlined. Async/await? Very ugly, very annoying. Java has solved this a lot better with virtual threads and structured concurrency.
I could go on, but these "language wars" are silly and pointless. Both platforms have their pros and cons. Besides, I have a lot of bad things to say about the JVM as well, but it's nice to see Valhalla finally beocming reality. Too late for me personally though.
Like what?