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#more#writing#claude#load#bearing#same#llms#should#thing#used

Discussion (73 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews

pocketarcabout 2 hours ago
In the olden days, I enjoyed Opus 3 because it was easy to have it sound way more human than GPT.

Nowadays, with the focus on agentic use and coding, it seems models have all been RLHF’d to death, it’s so incredibly hard to have them write in a different voice than their default. I put together a skill to review its writing and have it edit its own output (e.g. code comments), which does make a difference, but isn’t perfect.

What, if anything, do people do for writing? That feels like a neglected side of LLMs. They’ll make 100 Bash calls referencing ancient commands without batting an eye but heaven forbid they use something other than “load-bearing” while talking. For something trained on “all the human knowledge” it’s incredible how limited their default vocabulary seems to be.

Retr0idabout 1 hour ago
> What, if anything, do people do for writing?

I use a keyboard, personally.

bunderbunderabout 1 hour ago
Amen.

At work our documentation isn’t just getting littered with annoying jargon. It isn’t just all the hallucinations, either. (Since when has documentation ever been 100% trustworthy?) It’s that it’s so poorly written and structured that it’s becoming borderline incomprehensible.

My company is currently considering making, “Why should I bother to read something you didn’t bother to write?” an official policy because even the executives are starting to burn out on all the time they have to spend wading through slop.

pegasusabout 1 hour ago
This, a thousand times. As the ratio of code to human writing necessarily [1] goes up, they become not just smarter, but more precise and technical, which requires them to use more jargon. You could say they become more nerdy. Hence, text generated by these models will become more easily recognizable, at least by default, when not asking them to twist themselves into something else via prompting — which degrades intelligence. This is a good thing, in my book, given all the slop we already have to contend with.

Of course there will be models trained on much less code and technical writing, and they will create more natural sounding prose, but they will lack the deep intelligence of frontier models. Seems like a fair tradeoff.

[1] watch the first couple of minutes on this bycloud video on scaling training data mixtures: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD93kfArOik

postalcoderabout 1 hour ago
It's why I like Gemini 3.1 Pro. That it sounds much more human than other LLMs is testament to Google's inability to post train.

gemini-2.5-pro-experimental was the GOAT, though. It was an emotional wreck, down in the dumps and feeling terrible for itself after failing to patch a file several times. Very amusing to read, all the while watching it make a mess of my codebase.

boofusabout 1 hour ago
Good. I don't want LLMs sounding human. I want the ability to shame and discredit anyone passing the job of prose to a machine. There's an art to writing, and hopefully LLMs never truly get it right.
constantius19 minutes ago
Agreed. The only goal of these skills/tricks/requests for humanising LLM writing is to be able to pass it off as your own, because they know it's shameful and want to avoid the opprobrium.

Some will say it's just for their own quality of life when they're reading LLM output, or "just for docs", but this is an extremely marginal use case.

sheepscreekabout 1 hour ago
Agreed. I think we’re entering an era where some level of specialization for general LLMs is a good thing. Particularly between tuning for agentic use cases (where you want agency with a ton of guardrails and control) and writing which is more creative - you want the model to take the occasional risk and not sound like a monotonic robot. Having trained models first-hand, I can see the distinct use-cases clearly that are odds with one another.
Wowfunhappyabout 1 hour ago
For what it's worth, Anthropic seems to be keeping Opus 3 available on claude.ai, perhaps for this reason, so you're free to use it if you want to.
p-e-wabout 1 hour ago
> Nowadays, with the focus on agentic use and coding, it seems models have all been RLHF’d to death

I don’t get it. If nobody likes this writing style, how can it be the result of human feedback? Something else is going on.

pathsjsabout 1 hour ago
It's not that the writing style is bad; in fact LLMs write actually pretty well. It's just too much overfitted. And even a style that, in itself, is pleasurable to read, becomes annoying when the same figures of speech are used over and over again.
anon373839about 1 hour ago
Because LLMs are pattern-extenders that have nothing to say. The training overfitted to the grace notes in good writing. And since LLMs can’t wield language with purpose or experience the feeling of the words, they use these devices arbitrarily.

I think this is the same flaw as coding agents seeing in every problem the call for a “smoke test” or the use of some unnecessary design pattern. The truest part of AI is the A.

Wowfunhappyabout 1 hour ago
Because humans do like it, in reasonable quantities. The AI overlearns this and does it too much.
Bawoosetteabout 1 hour ago
For "agentic use and coding," they are trained to take useful actions, not produce desirable natural language writing.
itopaloglu83about 1 hour ago
Maybe it’s the dead internet.

All the bots and other LLMs providing feedback, so in reality it’s reflecting the reality in a sense.

jappgarabout 1 hour ago
every one-hit wonder asks the same question.

we liked it until we didn't.

michelbabout 1 hour ago
i hate it, but plenty of people DO like it and plenty of people talk and write like that. It’s just corpspeak, being used a lot in the valley and beyond. And all upcoming hustlers running startups now feel the need to speak like that, feeding this machine.
Myrmornisabout 1 hour ago
I like to think that the reason it's so noticable is that Claude has recognized some important semantics that we ourselves lack a good word for or at least under-appreciate. What term is used in English (or other languages) with the same meaning as claude's "load-bearing"?

operative? key? critical? decisive?

The honest conclusion is that none of those are as good as "load-bearing". And yet the concept being referred to is clearly extremely important and valuable to refer to. So maybe we should be learning from Claude rather than complaining.

bigfishrunningabout 1 hour ago
but you don't see "load bearing" nearly as often in prose written by people, so it's not some irreplaceable phrase. It's just a token with a weirdly high likelihood in a lot of cases (given how Claude works, this kind of thing is bound to happen)
Myrmornisabout 1 hour ago
You don't think it's possible that an LLM's internal machinery could decide that an underused-by-humans word should be used more frequently in output than it sees in input because it maps cleanly onto a frequently needed semantic? I think that's possible
bunderbunderabout 1 hour ago
It sounds like you are trying to understand LLM behavior using a mental model that inaccurately personifies the stochastic parrot.

A more parsimonious explanation is that this term got more-or-less randomly boosted by the reinforcement learning loop because there was nothing in the training data to discourage its use.

bunderbunderabout 1 hour ago
And like any good corporate buzzword, it’s merely a simulacrum of precise technical jargon. The way Claude uses it is clearly wildly polysemous if not outright ambiguous.
Retr0idabout 1 hour ago
> The honest conclusion

I think you've been reading too much claude output! "Load bearing" is cromulent verbiage and can be used in many scenarios - so claude does. But variety is important too, and there are more specific alternatives that can be used in most situations. Any word becomes a bad choice if you've used it 10 times in the last chapter.

Myrmornis32 minutes ago
You don't think me using "honest" there might have been a tiny bit of (on-topic, and therefore appropriate) trolling?
Retr0id10 minutes ago
Poe's law
hresvelgrabout 1 hour ago
In the figurative sense it's highly versatile across contexts, but still replaceable. For example:

"Her optimism was load-bearing,"

versus:

"Her optimism was enduring."

Exactly the same meaning and connotation. It stands to reason that the terms with the most semantic flexibility will have preference across all contexts. So in response to:

> maybe we should be learning from Claude rather than complaining.

I'd say let's not steer ourselves into regular language and keep some vivacity in our expressions.

SideburnsOfDoom8 minutes ago
> Exactly the same meaning and connotation.

No, it does not have the exact same meaning.

The first means that her optimism kept her in some functional state, without it, she would collapse.

The second means that her optimism continues over time, despite obstacles.

pjc50about 1 hour ago
You yourself used "important" in the same paragraph.

"Load bearing" is a metaphor, while the other single words are more direct expressions. Unless the thing that Claude is referring to is a wall or other structure, which may truly bear load.

This is one of those issues which translators are long familiar with. There's no direct translation for "schwerpunkt" that isn't slightly longer.

alistairSHabout 1 hour ago
You're serious?

Operative, key, and critical are all more correct to me in this context.

Myrmornis27 minutes ago
For me, "key", and "critical" merely say it's "important", but don't convey the sense that "out of the mess of connected concepts we're discussing, the one that is actually interacting with the thing we care about, or at least dominating the interactions with the thing we care about, is X".

"operative" is a bit better, but I think of it as referring to grammatical interactions, i.e. interactions at the level of language mechanics rather than semantics.

drmajormccheeseabout 2 hours ago
And there’s the smoking gun.
stavrosabout 2 hours ago
Now I have the full picture.
piazzabout 1 hour ago
This one observation changes everything.
dd8601fnabout 1 hour ago
We’ve identified the shape of the problem.
franzeabout 2 hours ago
You are right ...
foo-bar-baz529about 2 hours ago
Is this a belt-and-suspenders solution?
mapmeldabout 1 hour ago
This is the worst one for me. I can maybe think of what it means, but I never heard it before, and could easily be imagining a meaning.

Some of the other Claude-isms (quickly googling, especially 'gate' and 'canonical') I feel the issue is they sound right, but aren't specific enough to why we are doing something.

blanchedabout 1 hour ago
Personally my least favorite is the overuse of "quietly" (e.g. "No tricks. No marketing gimmicks. Just one company quietly outperforming the others"), and the one that makes the least sense to me is "that's the wedge."

I'm curious how these become so ingrained. Then the uncomfortable part is humans start repeating it more (a colleague said "belt-and-suspenders" during brainstorming the other day).

graemepabout 1 hour ago
Claude does at least use the British English version of the phrase to me - not sure whether its picking up a language setting or reacting to my spelling etc. The American version does sound odd over hear.
dfcabout 1 hour ago
What's the difference between the two usages?
retsibsi42 minutes ago
"Belt and braces" (UK) vs. "belt and suspenders" (US). I'm pretty sure the phrases have the same meaning, they just use a different word to refer to the thing that holds pants|trousers up.
nickipabout 1 hour ago
Worth doing before merge if you want the belt and suspenders.
throwawayffffas11 minutes ago
The reason it talks that way is clearly am attempt to hook into your dopamine system.

If what you told it to do is 'load bearing' then its important.

'You are absolutely right', because you are a smart fellow.

'Honest take', because it's being honest with you because it trusts you and you should do the same.

My 'honest take' these are absolutely garbage patterns that have no place in an session interacting with AI.

1. 'Load bearing' is a figure of speech that bears no loads.

2. 'You are absolutely right' it's not the agents job to judge that, it's job is to do what I told it to do.

3. 'Honest take', so everything else was not honest? Absolute honesty should be the default and is implied.

These words add nothing to the task at hand they are a poor attempt to hook you into using this particular model.

joren-about 2 hours ago
I'll make sure that the script is idempotent.
rbinvabout 2 hours ago
Great thinking on your end! I will run the smoke-test once you're ready.
hnarayananabout 1 hour ago
I might need to do a spike as this is a core part of the spine. I will verify it and let you know when it's landed.
pugioabout 2 hours ago
I wrote a thing about exactly this, but I'm resistant to blogging for undefined reasons so, maybe this will help someone...

# AI speech is an Infohazard

Apart from all its other possible boons and ills, one danger of AI is just that it is useful, so you use it. A lot.

In earlier days I would dive deeply into an author's work and start to think and write like them for a while. It was a heady feeling: slinging sonnets like Shakespeare—not at his level, but stylistically reminiscent—or tweaking turns like Twain.

Like all things, the effect lasts in relation to how long and how much you do it. The point is: our thinking is influenced by what we take in. Take more of a certain thing in, think more like that thing.

Now enter AI. My hand-crafted coding days are in their twilight months ("AI years"), and most of my software engineering is done through jaggedly capable agentic power tools. Instead of working directly with raw codestuff, I work with slop prose flecked with code sprinkles.

I read orders of magnitude more AI-speak—I call it "babble", or perhaps "Babel"—than human-written text. I can feel its genuinely honest points, clearly stated, slipping their banal tendrils into my thoughts and inner monologue.

Solutions? For me:

1. Be aware. "I notice that my thought stream is under assault."

2. Read stuff far from slop. Even a small dose of the good stuff can help inoculate. Recently I thought On the Calculation of Volume was something completely different.

3. Write stuff that is different. This post. Force the mind to synthesize thoughts in other ways.

4. debabel.py / debabel.js: a tool, and a pi extension, which filters common babble from visible LLM output. A lint for mind-killing prose.

It is not perfect, but it 80/20s nicely. I am willing to accept mildly awkward prose to avoid polluting my own internal distributions.

Details and example in the first comment. Tool available upon request.

pugioabout 2 hours ago
References:

Information hazard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_hazard

Babel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel

On the Calculation of Volume: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Calculation_of_Volume

The revenge of NLP

The tool uses good old-fashioned regex/NLP—no LLMs—and rewrites the visible LLM Markdown without touching files on disk. I made it by analysing 10M+ words of past pi transcripts, doing frequency and pattern analysis, and iterating on rules to strip out the most egregious sloperisms. Now the circle is complete.

BEFORE

"Honestly, you're absolutely right—and that's a great question. Let me be clear: the fact that the parser works at all is actually quite remarkable. We utilize the tokenizer in order to handle the majority of edge cases, and due to the fact that it's recursive, it processes a large number of inputs. It's worth noting that this isn't really a bug—it's genuinely a deliberate design choice. In terms of raw throughput, the cache is significantly faster, and I think we should simply ship it.

That said, at the end of the day, not only is the design correct, but it is also fast. In other words, prior to refactoring, we should clearly delve into the nuanced, robust architecture. In conclusion, this is a testament to the seamless, intricate work the team has done."

AFTER

"That's a great question. That the parser works at all is remarkable. We use the tokenizer to handle most edge cases, and because it's recursive, it processes many inputs. This is a deliberate design choice. For raw throughput, the cache is faster, and we should ship it.

Not only is the design correct, but it is also fast. Before refactoring, we should delve into the nuanced, robust architecture. This is a testament to the seamless, intricate work the team has done."

pjc50about 1 hour ago
I would add https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwel...

("It consists in gumming together long strips of words which have already been set in order by someone else, and making the results presentable by sheer humbug" -- Orwell predicts the LLM)

and also https://www.jstor.org/stable/25515288 "The Myles na gCopaleen Catechism of Cliché" itself is rather hard to find online, but he's a very funny writer so it's worth the effort.

lostloginabout 1 hour ago
> Babel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel

I was hoping for a reference to the Babel Fish, whispering its translations in your ear.

mchinenabout 1 hour ago
I enjoyed this.

I'm surprised there's no LoRa layer or auto RL or adversarial step to reduce the stock phrases as they pop up. Is it really so hard to push these out? Or is it just whack-a-mole no matter what you do?

jappgarabout 1 hour ago
I don't really care if it says load-bearing or belt and suspenders so long as it's using them correctly, which it mostly does.

I don't know how programmers, who are so used to staring at the same handful of keywords every day for decades, have suddenly become so discerning.

Yes, Claude writes boring and predictable prose. It also writes boring and predictable code. That's good!

hnarayananabout 1 hour ago
I maintain a list of phrases I beg it not to use that it frequently ignores:

- smoking gun - blast radius - landed - spine - earned its keep - grammar - spike - cutover - bake - sprint, epic, story points (all Agile vocabulary) - paper-cuts - amazing, incredible, perfect

dintechabout 1 hour ago
‘Landed’ and ‘honest’ are also words it seems to overuse.
jonathaneuniceabout 1 hour ago
Even great words, phrases, and styles, seen too often, grate.

I personally love a lot of the Claude (or LLM) lingo. Load-bearing, gate, canonical, blast radius, and friends do a lot of tight, effective heavy-lifting in my world. I even love the em-dashes (—) and the *bold the main points* memo style, both of which I have used successfully for decades.

It's seeing them in every analysis and post—the constant repetition becoming over-repetition—that makes them the Claude voice shouting "AI wrote this!" that seems to be causing LLM allergic reactions.

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taikahessuabout 1 hour ago
> replacement "you're absolutely right": "I'm a complete clown"

Omg, that hit hard. We really need more of this.

tpoacherabout 1 hour ago
Just ask it to aim for a Flesh-Kincaid ease-of-readability score of around 70. Or use ELI5 style. Or both.
jchookabout 2 hours ago
SillyTavern folks have been perfecting the unslop solutions for years now.

Gotta be a way to draw from their progress.

recsv-heredoc23 minutes ago
very load bearing suggestion.
bunderbunderabout 1 hour ago
I recently started using caveman, and it’s been great. It doesn’t just cut down on overuse of specific terms; it cuts down on time spent digesting slop in general.

https://github.com/JuliusBrussee/caveman

Foskyaabout 1 hour ago
I love it. It also saves you tokens and it has been linked with more accuracy.
bunderbunderabout 1 hour ago
The token saving is oversold, from what I can tell so far. These days output tokens are just the tip of the iceberg.

If anything the real value is it saves my brain from going into power saving mode by lunchtime because I haven’t spent the day reading pages of output when a sentence or two would do.

jdw64about 1 hour ago
Lately, I feel like as GEN AI text becomes the majority, human-written text is starting to resemble it too.

I'm Korean, and there are sites and people who mainly curate the latest technologies. Even those people, probably tired of translating every time, have started summarizing things with AI. But recently, I've noticed that even when people don't use AI, their writing is starting to look like GEN AItext.

I think the reason might be that people often base their thoughts on documents they've read, or paste parts of content when writing their own texts, which leads to that style.

I'm not sure. Whether human writing is better or AI writing is better—personally, AI writing tends to flow in a very even, paragraph-by-paragraph structure, which makes it good for consuming information. I wouldn't want to read a novel written that way, but for getting information, AI writing is surprisingly convenient.

scotty79about 1 hour ago
It's good, because it's just post-processing before display. So it doesn't interfere with the process, which those phrases that seem so offensive to sensibilities of so many people, for whatever reason, might be a part of.
_3u10about 1 hour ago
Ask AI about castor beans and barley, it will stop all that nonsense.
perching_aixabout 2 hours ago
Maybe implementing it as a hook via a regex replace is a better shaped solution?
llimllibabout 1 hour ago
“Smoking gun”
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