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81% Positive
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#open#models#model#kimi#router#more#fable#don#source#weights
Discussion (171 Comments)Read Original on HackerNews
Glad to see centralized control fail on the grandest scale. Maybe we can learn a thing or two.
They can afford to, assuming they distilled Fable, because that reduces their pre-training costs, doesn't it?
There's no irony. The problem is these generalizations and labelling that's hurting everyone. It's the wrong way to view China and maybe many other places.
Just like the definition of AI, the definition of democratic or not evolved long ago.
“State of [T]he Art” versus “State of [t]he Art”.
If not SotA then at least SOTA, which is more accurate.
I'm sure that more than once we've all had something we wrote which was intended to be obviously taken in a satirical or intentionally nonsensical manner taken seriously by someone else on the internet.
In a world of so many acronyms, details matter.
They put a router model in front that predicts whether Kimi or Fable is going to give a better cost for a correct result. (They believe that ultimately such a router model should be continuously trained on your own workloads so it makes the best decisions for you).
Their router chose Kimi the majority of the time (72% in one category, all the way to 96% in another category), leading to cost savings in every category (from 1.5x to 50x depending).
Their "router" is an oracle reference point where they choose the lower cost model after running both and therefore knowing who passed the test. The cost savings part is only Fireworks theorizing what would happen if an equivalent predicting router exists. That's a big if.
https://www.kimi.com/user/agreement/userPrivacy?version=v2
I use DeepSeek exclusively and now Kimi K3 offers a great planning assistant for more advanced coding tasks.
DeepSeek v4 Flash is extremely fast and is able to handle pretty much anything I've thrown at it (I use mostly Rust, PSQL, Angular and Terraform).
I self host Bifrost as my LLM gateway, though I wish LLM vendors would do monthly/daily automatic billing (like VPS providers do) rather than prepaid + auto-top up.
It's annoying maintaining a non-refundable minimum balance across vendors, I would rather be billed for my exact usage.
OpenRouter helps, but I don't really like it as a service and not a fan of the mark up.
I have been a heavy user of k2.5/6 but they seem to have gotten slower and worse at their jobs (and the "engine overloaded" errors have increased ... ), and k3 spends a LOT of time thinking and doesn't produce noticeably better results. I do keep chucking some tasks over to moonshot every now and again to give it a chance. I figure they're under compute pressure and have probably quantised the models to cope temporarily.
But recently I've found myself mostly using deepseek v4 pro and gpt 5.5 when I need the big guns.
GLM 5.2 has been good at select tasks but really shit at others and given how sparingly I use GPT 5.5 I'm not that compelled to use it. I've yet to be impressed by any Google or Anthropic models!!
I don’t think that’s particularly out of the ordinary. Do people have different experiences with other harnesses? Which ones?
As a router, it's not very feature rich. For example I restricted the available models to the ones I want to use however the `/models` endpoint still lists all the models, making my LLM client list the 200+ models available on the service (even though they will throw an error if I try to use them).
With Bifrost, I can also create model aliases with custom configuration - for example I can create a model alias `deepseek-v4-flash-nothink` which disables thinking. I can create `deepseek-v4-flash-caveman` which injects the caveman skill (to save tokens) etc.
Plus I can contribute to Bifrost, which I can't do with OpenRouter.
For example, the image generation parameters of GPT-image-2 are largely ineffective.
https://opencode.ai/zen
Go is nice for the ten minutes you can use it until your hit your cap.
You're right, I hate it when a business exists to make money. They should just provide their service for free. After all, anyone can build an OpenAI API compatible server that works with every major provider, and even build it using an LLM at that!
If I was using the routing features it would make more sense - but they charge significantly more for that so the markup is really just for billing consolidation.
(yes, I know this article is about an oracle router)
Everyone wants the latest and greatest.
Other people are allowed to call them on that.
I am really eager to give Kimi K3 a try, but I’ll reserve my judgement until I’ve worked with it for at least a few days.
The future is good and better for everyone the more work is in the open and the more work is in the commercial space. It’s good all around.
The only way there is no benefit would be is if the open models are literal copies of the closed model, which unless there was direct theft, is highly improbable.
It's also true that Moonshot and other labs distill from Claude. This has been reported on extensively. I don't think there's any alpha for Anthropic distilling from this model. I do not mean to discount the tremendous amount of innovation regarding MoE and quantization that Moonshot has accomplished. But its training with synthetic data is in large part from distillation from frontier labs.
https://www.thestack.technology/hugging-face-hacked-turned-t...
Considering that of 89 terminal tasks there were 11 that only Kimi got right, and 7 only Fable - having a router gives significantly more consistent results if you define consistent to mean correct.
* Openrouter.ai for a hosted router
* https://github.com/diegosouzapw/OmniRoute for a local router
I’d be amenable to it but I’m already aware of them lying about token throughout by 50-100% on AA and on Twitter, even when you get a dedicated server.
Just too much lying piled up to extend courtesy here, even though you’re my favorite open model provider. Please, get your house in order, and if the house is so big that marketing drove this set, ask them to slow down a bit and market things that people can actually use / you actually provide.
Moonshot has committed to release it end of the month.
My only gripe was that it takes a very long time to think. It's a good model otherwise.
1) US export bans have made it so that Chinese companies have to compete using less-than-state-of-the-art hardware. This has forced Chinese companies to build more cost efficient models. Whereas, US companies have moreso tried to be state of the art by spending more money than anyone else on state-of-the-art hardware.
2) Xi Jinping has called for more open AI models (not to be confused with the closed models of OpenAI), and I'm happy to see a powerful world leader advocating for open-weight AI models. Whereas, the US seems likely to just ban models.
3) My impression is that, if China surpasses the US in AI development, there will basically be nothing that the US does better than the rest of the world--except for military spending--we spend a lot, but we don't necessarily spend well (something something Iran). I mean, if the US is no longer a tech leader in the world, like... what are we a leader at? Manufacturing? Healthcare? LOL. Are we a leader in any industry or by any metric? I wonder if China is attempting to remove the last jewel in the USA's crown with these AI releases.
4) It must be refreshing for companies to have access to a new model that isn't going to get pulled because the government bans it 2 days after release. And it's open-weight so it wont go away--amazing--what a shift in the market.
5) If it becomes clear that open-weight models are the future of AI, will that pop a huge bubble in the US economy? Maybe. But, on the other hand, these companies aren't just training AIs, they are also building data centers which will remain valuable no matter what happens.
This comment is stunningly out of touch. The US dominates finance (overwhelming lead in assets managed, stock market capitalization, trading volume, and basically every other metric); space launch (about 85% of all mass placed into orbit); medical devices (exports nearly 2x the second largest exporter); and pharmaceutical research (more active clinical trials than any other country, near-universally ranked as the top producer of major pharmaceutical innovations, world-leading survival rates on many cancer types). We are the world's leading producer of both oil and natural gas. We manufacture the world's most advanced jet engines, precision agricultural machinery, and measurement instruments. We design the world's most performant CPU's and GPU's. We film the most popular movies and record the most popular music. Despite having only 4% of the world's population, there is literally not a single major industry where the US is not a leading player.
There is no doubt that China is a serious threat to US global leadership, and they have already surpassed us in many areas. But that doesn't mean the US is behind overall. We still have a lot of strengths and we have every reason to hope for continued success in the 21st century.
> (exports nearly 2x the second largest exporter)
Can you provide the source? In the WTO's broader medical goods category, Germany actually exported slightly more than the US in 2022 ($202.6 billion versus $189.6 billion), so such a huge difference in a few years?
> and pharmaceutical research
China accounted for approximately 44.2% of the 104 new molecules in 2025, compared with 26.9% for the U.S. and 15.4% for Europe.
The 2024 shares were approximately 34.6% for China, 30.9% for the U.S., and 22.2% for Europe.
> there is literally not a single major industry where the US is not a leading player.
I will just give 3 examples: China completed roughly 91% of the world’s shipbuilding tonnage in 2025, holds more than 80% of solar module manufacturing capacity and produces more than three quarters of global batteries.
People are paying for tokens, that will likely continue even if open weight wins.